Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....

[Anonymous]

Have you ever tried to criticize or even ask skeptical questions at an AA meeting or of a sponsor?  I have, many times and I was promptly told not to 'ask how my steak was prepared, to just enjoy it'.  I was told that to question AA or any of it's dogma was 'signing my own death warrant' (sound familiar?).  It may not be a cult, per se.....but it sure does have most of the characteristics.  Most of which use scare tactics and emotional blackmail as their weapons of choice.

I meant to include this link with that part of the post.  It shows, better than I ever could explain, what happens when you dare criticize the great and powerful Oz.  Just start reading through the Orange Paper Letters section.  All sorts of Stepcrafters laughingly (literally) wishing or predicting death for him.  They cannot tolerate criticism of any kind.  Apparently, even from one of their own (the Valliant study proving that not only is AA ineffective, but dangerous).  Go here and pick a section out of the Letters.  Any one will do.

http://www.orange-papers.org/

Anne Bonney,
What you are talking about once again is not AA, separate personalities and principles. You keep talking about people and for all the people your talking about I can show you as many who don't act the way you are describing. AA does not coordinate a kindergarten class nor does it govern what or how folks will act. AA is the Big Book, The Twelve and Twelve, literature/pamphlets, grapevine, and the various books written by Bill and Dr. Bob. How all this is interpreted is your business.
So keep drinking your kool-aid ( orange flavor) Anne and read your newspaper (orange flavor). Oh and by the way if your criticism was on target we could have a debate but it is not. Pick one or the other (AA..or..the members).
Anne read and read again...Twelve traditions only this time believe that others believe this actually works.
Funny you never hear or read anywhere AA; GSO...criticize anyone or anything.
 :shamrock:
Danny.......

[Whooter]

I believe it all depends on the individual.  Some people attend an AA meeting and it fills the right void for them, they are comfortable and fit right in and get the support they need.  Others need something different.  AA has help a lot of people recover from their addictions and keep them under control.  And I feel in general people can get a lot of good advice from other people who are further down the road and have experience with recovery.

It is unfortunate that you had that experience, Ann.  AA doesn’t have a written policy that states they should respond with “'don’t ask how my steak was prepared, to just enjoy it'............... 'signing my own death warrant'”.  Maybe the guy running the meeting that night was going thru a divorce and/or hated woman.  I believe there are many meeting locations in each city so you could try a different location and see what the people are like there, it may be a softer crowd.

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.

That one guy has sourced beyond all reason every single claim he's made.  G'head and attempt to disprove a single thing he's written.

[Whooter]

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.

That one guy has sourced beyond all reason every single claim he's made.  G'head and attempt to disprove a single thing he's written.

Just one example:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

He never cites a study and then goes on for pages basing his personal hypothesis and statistics on these numbers which were pulled from the air.

Link to source



...

[Anonymous]

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.

That one guy has sourced beyond all reason every single claim he's made.  G'head and attempt to disprove a single thing he's written.

Anne,
You can't be serious........

[Anne Bonney]

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.

That one guy has sourced beyond all reason every single claim he's made.  G'head and attempt to disprove a single thing he's written.

Anne,
You can't be serious........

I am serious.  Please, cite a claim he's made that is false.

[Anne Bonney]

Have you ever tried to criticize or even ask skeptical questions at an AA meeting or of a sponsor?  I have, many times and I was promptly told not to 'ask how my steak was prepared, to just enjoy it'.  I was told that to question AA or any of it's dogma was 'signing my own death warrant' (sound familiar?).  It may not be a cult, per se.....but it sure does have most of the characteristics.  Most of which use scare tactics and emotional blackmail as their weapons of choice.

I meant to include this link with that part of the post.  It shows, better than I ever could explain, what happens when you dare criticize the great and powerful Oz.  Just start reading through the Orange Paper Letters section.  All sorts of Stepcrafters laughingly (literally) wishing or predicting death for him.  They cannot tolerate criticism of any kind.  Apparently, even from one of their own (the Valliant study proving that not only is AA ineffective, but dangerous).  Go here and pick a section out of the Letters.  Any one will do.

http://www.orange-papers.org/

Anne Bonney,
What you are talking about once again is not AA, separate personalities and principles. You keep talking about people and for all the people your talking about I can show you as many who don't act the way you are describing. AA does not coordinate a kindergarten class nor does it govern what or how folks will act. AA is the Big Book, The Twelve and Twelve, literature/pamphlets, grapevine, and the various books written by Bill and Dr. Bob. How all this is interpreted is your business.
So keep drinking your kool-aid ( orange flavor) Anne and read your newspaper (orange flavor). Oh and by the way if your criticism was on target we could have a debate but it is not. Pick one or the other (AA..or..the members).
Anne read and read again...Twelve traditions only this time believe that others believe this actually works.
Funny you never hear or read anywhere AA; GSO...criticize anyone or anything.
 :shamrock:
Danny.......

Oh, I see.  If I would only listen to reason!  If I'd only listen to true believers!!  I'd finally see the light, right??  Jeez you people never give up.

I've read them all.  Ad nauseum.  And it's precisely what I have a problem with. Not the people. The basic tenets of AA are dangerous, IMO.  You don't agree, fine.  Why is it so important that I drink the KoolAid too?  I'm quite happy and satisfied with my life.

[Whooter]

I wouldn’t read too much into the “orange papers” or take it as gospel.  It was written by one guy and written only using his personal view point.

That one guy has sourced beyond all reason every single claim he's made.  G'head and attempt to disprove a single thing he's written.

Anne,
You can't be serious........

I am serious.  Please, cite a claim he's made that is false.

Anne,They may be true and they may be false, but its just one mans opinion.  Its not based on fact.  I gave you an example of how he doesnt source his figures.  Here it is again.  I could say the world is going to end tomorrow and you couldnt disprove it  (until tomorrow lol)... so a man writes a paper based on personal opinions and you believe him.  There is nothing wrong with that.  but dont try to peddle it as fact, thats all.

Just one example:
Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.

He never cites a study and then goes on for pages basing his personal hypothesis and statistics on these numbers which were pulled from the air.

Link to source



...

[Anne Bonney]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Fuck off.  I am in no way interested in any kind of interaction with you. :twofinger:  :suicide:

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

Fuck off.  I am in no way interested in any kind of interaction with you. :twofinger:  :suicide:

You dont need to interact.  I am just pointing out to you that you are wrong.  You are stating opinions as facts and that is misleading to the other readers.



...

[Anne Bonney]

ANd you're opinion about him being wrong is just that.  An opinion.  Let people go and read for themselves.  He's sourced every single thing that he states as fact.  His opinion is that AA is a dangerous cult.  He backs that opinion up with facts that cannot be disputed no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you wish you could.  You can't.

[Whooter]

Look, Anne, there is no reason to be rude.  This orange paper guy doesnt back up what he says with facts, as you think he does.  I just gave you a random  example of where he throws out numbers off the top of his head and then continues to build an argument around it.  The paper is based on his opinions... it isnt fact based.

If you still believe it is fact then what study support the numbers in this statement of his?  Where did these come from?

Even the most ardent true believers who will be honest about it recognize that A.A. and N.A. have at least 90% failure rates. And the real numbers are more like 95% or 98% or 100% failure rates. It depends on who is doing the counting, how they are counting, and what they are counting or measuring.



....

[Anonymous]

Have you ever tried to criticize or even ask skeptical questions at an AA meeting or of a sponsor?  I have, many times and I was promptly told not to 'ask how my steak was prepared, to just enjoy it'.  I was told that to question AA or any of it's dogma was 'signing my own death warrant' (sound familiar?).  It may not be a cult, per se.....but it sure does have most of the characteristics.  Most of which use scare tactics and emotional blackmail as their weapons of choice.

I meant to include this link with that part of the post.  It shows, better than I ever could explain, what happens when you dare criticize the great and powerful Oz.  Just start reading through the Orange Paper Letters section.  All sorts of Stepcrafters laughingly (literally) wishing or predicting death for him.  They cannot tolerate criticism of any kind.  Apparently, even from one of their own (the Valliant study proving that not only is AA ineffective, but dangerous).  Go here and pick a section out of the Letters.  Any one will do.

http://www.orange-papers.org/

Anne Bonney,
What you are talking about once again is not AA, separate personalities and principles. You keep talking about people and for all the people your talking about I can show you as many who don't act the way you are describing. AA does not coordinate a kindergarten class nor does it govern what or how folks will act. AA is the Big Book, The Twelve and Twelve, literature/pamphlets, grapevine, and the various books written by Bill and Dr. Bob. How all this is interpreted is your business.
So keep drinking your kool-aid ( orange flavor) Anne and read your newspaper (orange flavor). Oh and by the way if your criticism was on target we could have a debate but it is not. Pick one or the other (AA..or..the members).
Anne read and read again...Twelve traditions only this time believe that others believe this actually works.
Funny you never hear or read anywhere AA; GSO...criticize anyone or anything.
 :shamrock:
Danny.......

Oh, I see.  If I would only listen to reason!  If I'd only listen to true believers!!  I'd finally see the light, right??  Jeez you people never give up.

I've read them all.  Ad nauseum.  And it's precisely what I have a problem with. Not the people. The basic tenets of AA are dangerous, IMO.  You don't agree, fine.  Why is it so important that I drink the KoolAid too?  I'm quite happy and satisfied with my life.

Because if you look at all your arguments (not the author of the orange papers those are his arguments) your talking about members and problems you have relating with them.
Danny
 :shamrock:

[Anne Bonney]

Because if you look at all your arguments (not the author of the orange papers those are his arguments) your talking about members and problems you have relating with them.
Danny
 :shamrock:

No.  What I have a problem with is the basic tenets of AA.  the Big Book, sponsors, the 12 & 12......all of what's contained in the official AA literature.  I've read them all, time and time again.  It's not necessarily the people (although you guys are PERFECT examples of what we're talking about)...its what AA teaches that I have a problem with.