Author Topic: Marathon Workshops  (Read 7278 times)

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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2006, 05:14:00 AM »
I would like to share your idealism and I really hope you are right, but i just dont think education is enough, because people react to scare campigns more than they do to reason. Education plays an important part, and sites like this are useful. Lord knows they helped me!

However I just think that aspens "Its always worse than you think" mentality or the famous "Dead or in Jail" line wins the public over every time. At least strong enforceable& enforced legislation minimises the harm. At least charging those who have been negligent with abuse and jailing them sends the message that the wellbeing of the kids means something real.

I am aware that one of the big stumbling blocks to properly regulating the industry is the fact that America values individual states rights over a more fedealist mentality thus it is hard to get all states to comply equally, but if you have a Federal food and drug administration for instancce, then i see no reason that there cant be a similar model for this industry. That way tthe worste programmes would get shut down, the dubious would be monitored for safety and be forced to face real consequences for breaking the rules and mean while at the very least the kids would come out alive, well fed and with a basic uniform standard of education. Sure it would be perfect if they did not go at all to these places but i dont hold my breath!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2006, 06:33:00 PM »
This thread is hereby a CLUSTERFUCK.

Programs DONT WORK. Theyve been around 30+years and not one has ever proven they can work, and all the studies shown have a huge (and obvious) bias that "oh well someday... they have potential" but no proof of it. EVER.

I also like how the obligatory programmie poster has to come in and waffle about anything negative, but then jump in head first on anything thats supportive of the programmies desired outcome.

Regardless, trying to FIX a program is like trying to FIX Saddam Hussein's regime or FIX the soviet union. You cant "fix" it without making it something totally different. You might as well 'fix' scientology!

Now, specifically to that "seminar/workshop" topic... its the same old rehashed, debunked psycho-babble nonsense that has no long term effect except for possibly trauma and therapy bills.

It has no therapeutic value and they (LGATs) have been around for far longer than programs themselves, which have a 30 year history of no therapeutic value.

All the arguements are constructed around a bias of them wanting to work, or at least reduce the debate into a "waffley" case of "oh well it might" "oh well it could" sort of obfuscation instead of simply admitting there is ZERO proof of it ever being effective and tons of it to the contrary.

Also, this is probably another troll, or just someone so stupid this is how they actually think - and either way Im done giving a fuck.

Now if you think Im too 'harsh' to the self centered parents  who want me to help them with their confirmation bias because they can't grow up, and man up to the fact that they fucked up, you can kiss my ass  :em:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2006, 06:39:00 AM »
hey you guys. What is a clusterfuck?

Three springs, i dont understand why you seem to associate more effective laws with an increased volume of laws.

My understanding, & correct me if i am wrong, is that the reason why there is so much legislation is in 52 different states you guys have 52 different sets of regulations,rules and laws. The US is big on states rights to enforce as opposed to the feds being the final word. Thus if 1 state deems a programme abusive & shuts it down  or revokes the right for some fuckwit to work with kids, Said fuckwit can take his nutbar school & reopen it with a new name in a different state.
With one federal set of reguations which were strongly enforced so that criminal negligence was uniformly dealt with in a serious way, and a strict set of guidelines, the totally abusive operator would be shut down for good & hopefully in jail, the well meaning but psycholgically nuts programmes whould have limited powers to fuck up kids & harm is minimised.

By all means work toward shutting these places down by educating the public and boosting parents confidence in their ability to parent but in the meantime have an enforceable back up to help keep these kids alive & well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2006, 07:01:00 AM »
"Clusterfuck"
    A disastrous situation that results from the cumulative errors of several people or groups. In semi-polite company this is referred to as a Charlie Foxtrot (from the NATO phonetic alphabet) .
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2006, 08:24:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-06-30 04:55:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"We have 50 states.



The nature of our judicial and political system is not conducive to a big anal probe of federal laws. For instance the FBI only becomes involved by request of state police, or if it is a crime that involves bank robbery or kidnapping across state lines. Other than that they stay in their office and make their pencil holders safe from terrorists.



The problems you bring up are local issues requiring local solutions. "


For the second time I feel like a dick (5 states.) I get the feeling there is a left vs right divide here! i being a gore esque douche bag you being a grumpy conservative! Anyhoo!
So what you are telling me is that for example, different states all have different criteria for what constitutes manslaughter? i use this as an example because most of these kids seem to have died from it in one fashion or another. If this is the case, This is one thing i am saying is wrong!
The pledge is meant to be 1 nation undwr god with liberty & justice for all, (or something similar)
Not 50 states some with wacky ideas with liberty and justice for all adults!

I realise that enforcing a national set of industry guidelines is tricky (particularly with an industry which odes not know if it is medical or educational) even if i am a fan, but how hard is it for all of the states to agree on what manslaughter, murder and criminal negligence are and charge the alleged purpertrators accordingly?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Badpuppy

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« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2006, 02:25:00 PM »
Quote
On 2006-06-28 04:27:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"To give the kids a fighting chance I sure as hell would not send them to Three Springs.



Look its like this in Florida most people do not realize that the contract facilities(private companies under DJJ contract) are some of the most heavily regulated in the country.



Yet somehow Martin Anderson was still beat to death. Some kid just died from strep throat at a DJJ contract Outward bound facility, and by my own witness I saw just how easy it was to bend the laws and regulations in favor of the program.



You keep saying you want to reform these facilities. I say ban them all as I promise you there is just no long term promises that can be made regarding the safety of youth in these programs. I used to be a big fan of Eckerd Youth Alternatives as I worked for them as a wilderness counselor for two years.



There they have weekly uninterupted phone calls, uncensored mail, each group has its own teacher, group treatment coordinator, and an on facility nurse.



Ok this is all nice and juicy. Even better a resident has the right to call the abuse hotline at any time of the day or night. He can also file a grievance in a locked box that can only be opened by a program director. These grievances recieve immediate attention and are logged in a file for DJJ auditors to review.



The food is relatively decent, and the counselors recieve better than average training for a program that is kept basic and streamlined.



Sounds good?



 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:





Man the shit that went down in that place was unbelievable. Group's rioting and beating the hell out of their group  members. A counselor went nuts and had to be fired for nearly attacking a resident. Master counselors, supervisors, restraining kids for cursing in huddles.



Despite the supervision of the State of Florida and I promise at the time it was fairly heavy. DJJ auditors do not eff around in anyway when they go through a program in the state of florida. Despite all of this abuses still happened on a regular basis as the power to bend the laws in the favor of staff still exists, and always will exist no matter what pencil dick laws get passed.



Ban all the damn TBS programs. Send mental health kids to mental health treatment programs not friggin BM warehouses.



The drug war places Leo in a round room and instructs him to piss in a corner.
--Antigen

"


How are kids hurt by regulation, inspection, and standards? Sure situations occur. But their is a greater burden to cover-up and bend a rule, than if the standards are not their at all.[ This Message was edited by: Badpuppy on 2006-06-30 11:26 ]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2006, 07:35:00 PM »
I absolutely agree that power is a huge corruptor & probably a BIG part of the problems in these programmes. Particularly the lord of the flies style ones that let senoir kids make the decisions. The total lack of communication with the outside world also does not help at all on this score. But there is no minimum standard that the schools have to keep up with in this regard.

I also agree with you that there needs to be an emphasis on families parenting their own kids.
 
I am just wondering though. Who holds normal american boarding schools accontable? As far as i am aware they do not seem to carry the same tradition of abuse. Does America have mandatory reporting? Over here we are a federalist system as well but the child protection rules do not vary much from state to state (bearing in mind we only have 7 so it is much easier in that regard)

Apply the same standards to TBS and wilderness programmes. Have a single body which over sees the child protection at a federal level. Yes that means one more federal body instead several state ones, and when kids are injured & the hands of their carerss call in law enforcement to press charges. This doesnot have to be the FBI. It just needs to be whoever charges ordinary citizens with Murder, manslaughter or any other rank and file charge. What needs to be uniform is what the charge is not whether federal or state police charge the alleged perpetrator
I like bad puppy dont see how this can do anyharm. I am not suggesting that it would fix the whole industry, I am with you when you say the industry should not exist at all and that there are probably a lot of problems within that cant be fixed, but at least it is a start.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2006, 09:20:00 PM »
If you fixed the industry it wouldn't be what it is.

"fixing" a program means taking out the programmie bullshit and making it just schools with actual therapy and no coersive bullshit.

How many times do I have to fucking repeat that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2006, 09:26:00 PM »
actually i disagree with both of you. I dont think boarding school is a place to provide therapy. Kids who have mental ilnesses or severe ad geniune addictions should be seen by doctors. Everyone else should probably be with their family & community.
I just dont think that the industry can be shut down because it has so much money and power. This is why I think that the only thing that can at least moderate the industry isstrict enforceable rules. The 2 arguments are mot mutually exclusive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #24 on: June 30, 2006, 09:53:00 PM »
No shit a boarding school isn't gonna give you therapy.  :roll:

Here we go again.

My point is progrmas are based off of coersion and control. If you 'fixed' a program its just a boarding school. If you give therapy there, then its like seeing an outpatient therapist after school living at home.

Now, I will be the FIRST to tell you I think sending people off and keeping them in isolation is bad, its not theraputic, and its very stressful. I think sending people away is wrong and not good for anything except possibly punishing them if you want to do that for some reason or another.

Dont read too much into what I Say, plshelp. I think programs and sending kids away is wrong, period.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2006, 10:34:00 PM »
fine. But if you are to shut them down there needs to be some kind of practical way of doing it. Education deos not seem to be enough because the industry seems to be growing not shrinking.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2006, 10:37:00 PM »
If the facts were all over the evening news this would be over and done with very quickly. But until that happens you cant expect the government to do a goddamned thing about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2006, 03:32:00 AM »
Quote
On 2006-06-30 19:37:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"You really have no clue how America works do you?"


I have some idea, but what makes you say that?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2006, 09:48:00 PM »
Ginger is right that public awareness must happen for the problem to be fixed.

Where she and I disagree is that she doesn't think any legislative solution will be an improvement.

I think we need consumer protection laws for mental health therapies.

I think we need an agency like the FDA, or an expansion of the FDA, to cover talk or behavioral therapies.  For purposes of argument, figure we expand the FDA.

Just as, even with the FDA, people can still take various herbal and nutritional supplements, people would still be able to get any talk or behavioral therapy they wanted---so long as it's not demonstrably very dangerous.

What needs to be restricted is the practices that are very dangerous, and the claims made by various facilities.  The FDA needs to be able to make therapists comply with standards for what therapies they claim to provide.  

Specifically, if a therapist claims to provide a particular kind of proven therapy, like CBT, that therapist should have to have qualifications to provide that therapy or should have to post a disclaimer saying she doesn't have those qualifications.

If a facility or therapist claims to use certain therapies and deliver a certain percentage of results with them, then that facility or therapist had better be making truthful claims---just like the FDA verifies that when you buy a bottle of pills from the pharmacy, what it says on the label is what's really in the bottle.

If a facility or therapist provides unproven therapies exclusively or in addition to the proven ones, they should have to say so.  They should have to say if they're unqualified to provide whatever it is.  Consumers have a right to know what's in the bottle matches what's on the label.

If they make claims unverified by the FDA, the FDA should have the right to make them post a disclaimer---wherever and to whatever specifications the FDA decides---to protect the consumer.

Children should have consumer protections from ineffective or harmful treatments.

Right now, if your child clearly needs mental health help, then it's child neglect if you don't get them seen to the same as if the kid had an abcess.  Child welfare may or may not catch it or pursue it, but they could make a case out of it if they chose.  

Problem is, the mental health "help" you get them can be any old kind of snake oil gobbledegook you want.

With an expansion of the FDA, if a relative or a neighbor alleges that a parent is taking their child who clearly needs mental health help and sticking them in something ineffective or harmful---with clear, objective definitions of what works and what doesn't---then child welfare has a clean cut set of criteria for doing an investigation and has some basis to help them evaluate whether a particular child is being abused or neglected.

Another thing this would do is if another family member was seeking custody of the child, the use of harmful treatments if the child was fine, or the use of ineffective treatments or unqualified personnel if the child needed help, would give the other family member some grounds for bringing the case in front of a family court judge.  Then the judge could decide in that kid's individual case how to rule in the custody case.  He'd just have a lot more clear, objective information about the treatments happening to the kid if the FDA had authority to do normal consumer protection.

Personally, I think this would have the effect of shutting down these behavior mod facilities because they don't work.

Most of them would shut down through lack of demand if they had to provide the parents with prominent disclaimers written by the FDA saying that they don't work, and if the claims they could make to parents were heavily limited and enforced by the FDA.

The few that would still be able to fill beds in their facilities after the resulting industry shakeout would then be mostly shut down as neighbors and relatives of the kids looked at the disclaimers, looked at the parents, picked up the phone, and called child welfare authorities.

You guys point out that the behavior mod facilities comprise a huge industry.  That's true.  So did the medicine shows selling tonics like Lydia Pinkhams.  So did the processed food industries when they didn't have to tell you what was really in the box or the can.  When the FDA was created and got the power to make those folks tell the truth, the medicine show industry went away.  Tonics like Lydia Pinkhams disappeared like the dinosaurs or, like Coca Cola, transformed into a relatively harmless soft drink that quit making health claims (and quit including cocaine).

I'm a fiscally conservative, socially libertarian Republican.  I hate big government as a "solution" to social problems.  I believe the private sector solves most problems much better for most consumers, more quickly, for a much better price.

But I'm not an anarchist.

I believe strong consumer protection laws are a necessary limit on a market economy.

I believe half the problem driving these behavior mod facilities is that the parents believe the claims Programs make.

Parents believe Programs because they are accustomed to the benefits of consumer protection laws in the other parts of their lives and naturally assume that the Programs they send their kids to are regulated in equivalent ways.

Our society moved away from Caveat Emptor a long time ago.  People aren't used to thinking that way.  There are some good reasons for choosing the present consumer protection system over straight laissez-faire capitalism.

The biggest public policy problem with the Programs, and with mental health care in general, is that we don't subject them to the same kinds of consumer protection laws we apply to most similarly important things.

If consumer protection laws enforced a certain level of truth in advertising and truth in labeling on the Programs, I believe Ginger's public awareness campaign would probably take care of the rest of the problem.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2006, 01:03:00 AM »
You can argue for your so called libertarian beliefs all you want, but as long as the corporations are using the government to pass legislation to favor themselves, maybe its about time the people pass something to enhance their own lives and well being.  Can't have it both ways, if the government doesn't want to do anything about it then they shouldn't be surprised when violence breaks out and people decide to take action themselves.
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