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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 12:32:00 PM

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 12:32:00 PM

Anon with law degree . . .you say that ther was damage, but you are quite general in your expressions . . Can you be more specific in what ways the experience was negative for you?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 12:48:00 PM

Just now, this past weekend I have figured this out. I suppose you could call it emotional abuse or mond control- the feeling that if one doesn't lock step with the program the surely the isolation, yelling, putting down and general methods of creating such incredible self-doubt  will continue.  I was absolutely terrified every single time I had to go there. Every single time without exception. Even to this day,  when I drive by that location on my way to visit friends wholive out that way, my guts tumble to my feet.  And the building is not even there anymore.

I never really understood why my life was so hard up till now.  It's that negative conditioning inserted between childhood and budding adolesence. Some people truly might have been addicts and needed that kind of mind restructuring, but I truly don't belive I was one of them,nor was my brother.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on November 09, 2004, 01:10:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-11-09 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

Some people truly might have been addicts and needed that kind of mind restructuring, but I truly don't belive I was one of them,nor was my brother.

Thank you! And neither were we. I'm so glad to hear that this forum, contentious and hostile as it can be sometimes, has been useful to you and yours.

Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest.
Mahatma Gandhi, My Autobigraphy, p. 446

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 01:43:00 PM

I didn't know about this forum until this AM.  Googled the names Art Barker and The Seed. No to be crude, but what a treat it is to find out I was not the only person who was cured (read: fucked with) on some very basic level for having a problem that did not exist.  So sorry that I could not see my way through this so many, many years ago.  But its better late than never.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 02:21:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-11-09 10:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I didn't know about this forum until this AM.  Googled the names Art Barker and The Seed. No to be crude, but what a treat it is to find out I was not the only person who was cured (read: fucked with) on some very basic level for having a problem that did not exist.  So sorry that I could not see my way through this so many, many years ago.  But its better late than never."

and THAT, my friends, is what this site is all about.  Glad you found it, hope it helps to give you some sense of peace. :wave:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on November 09, 2004, 04:55:00 PM

I am so glad you found us. Welcome to the Seed discussion forum.

I ask two things of new people. One, try to refrain from personal attacks in this forum, and two..you gotta dig deep and tell us a seed story.

Welcome once again.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Somejoker on November 09, 2004, 05:08:00 PM

Quote

On 2004-11-09 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

  I was absolutely terrified every single time I had to go there. Every single time without exception.

Me too. I was just sure they were gonna stand me up and humiliate me, berate me and embarrass me.  My 14 year old physc just wasn't up to it and truth be told it scarred me up pretty good. I spent years trying to understand what happened to me.  

This was the real damaging part of the program in my opinion, not the rare instance of a kid getting slapped around or tackled to the ground, but the very real threat of being personally rippped apart at any unsuspecting minute for nothing.  It truly was scary.

To our new poster, If you want to talk, email me at rocky93@tampabay.rr.com with your number and I will call you. I would love to speak to you.

My user name here is GregFL and/or Somejoker. Somejoker is my moderator handle.


[ This Message was edited by: Somejoker on 2004-11-09 14:11 ]

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 05:45:00 PM

This just came together for me this past weekend.  What prompted me was a question posed to me by the psychiatrist (new dr/pt relationship) What he asked me was whether I thought I deserved, for brevity's sake, "to be happy."  The intial, logical/cogniative repsonse is yes, but I also added that my life choices paint a very different picture. After much reflection it occurred to me how horrible that Seed experice was.  I was a young adolescent when I got put there.  the end result is that my self-image was shaken and stirred so much I have had no idea what I really wanted - I just knew that deep down inside, I was never really never good enough, never ever measured up to those people who always stood in judgment on the sidelines - SAFE from attack.  
Whew.  All these years I thought I was crazy. Turns out I was just a brainwashed kid.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 09, 2004, 09:55:00 PM

remember the raps about "never being able to leave the seed", about how the songs would forever play thru your mind and you would know what a failure you were?

To those that accepted this dogma and kept the seed close to their heart, perhaps they didn't feel damaged.

To those of us, especially those of us that were young and fairly innocent, the seed was a terrifying bully that not only imprisoned our bodies but also our minds and turned all our friends..and most insidiously..our families..either against us or into allies of the program. We could not even vocalize our true self or dare to even think about our situation for fear of someone's "awareness" catching us and being started over and forced back into public confessionals, strange locked bedrooms and humiliation and degredation.

It was a trap with no escape and the casualty was often our identity and self worth.

Someone recently asked me in a condenscending way if it was so bad why didn't I run. This is the epitomy of arrogance to blame a forteen year old child on his abuse because he didn't run from it.  

gregfl

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Stripe on November 11, 2004, 04:46:00 PM

How is it that people I know, who sat right there with me, got "come down on" suffered that same rejection, etc.,  can't see the effects of this place in their lives today?

For lack of a better term, I was "outted" as a Seedling by one of my business associates - and I never ever told anyone I was in that place. Ever. I mean, after 30 years, if someone who was on the outside can look at you, listen to what you are describing as a general experience, and  ask, "Did you go to the Seed?" then there must have been some stronger programming or hold on me that I ever realized.

If it's that obvious even after all this time, how is it that my other seed friends,  whom I truly count as friends, just don't get it?  Lives have been so screwed up by that place and its passing on to yet another generation of children being programmed. Maybe its a different program name , but the end result is still the same...and yet they still continue to deny what happened to them.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on November 11, 2004, 08:25:00 PM

Well, I think the therapeutic community model is very, very effective. Not at all therapeutic, mind you. But extremely effective.

Some people resist it in various ways, others seem to have no resistance at all. When I first got out of Straight in late `82, HRS was doing a huge investigation. They placed me in a group home in Sarasota when I was extradicted from Georgia for the "crime" of being a chronic runaway. And they provided me a lawyer for court.

They also asked me to testify about abuses I had wittnessed and I declined. At that time, I didn't think I'd seen any real abuse.

I didn't even think I had been abused when I got pinned to the floor for a couple of hours for refusing to apologize to Group for splitting or when I got shouted at and shoved around a timeout room for a few hours by a tag team of fellow group members. Though I rejected the program in some ways, I was obviously a whole lot more effected by it than I thought. I saw these things in the paradigm of program dogma; i.e. I did the necessary things to get sat on and marathoned. If I had said what I was told to say, I could have avoided it and so it wouldn't be "fair" to claim victim status.

Some people snap out of it, others gradually regain the ability to think for themselves. I know a couple of people who pretty much snapped out of it 20 years or more after graduating. They're often among the most resentful because they've spent their best years thinking and acting according to a code that turns out to be invalid. So they suddenly realize that shunning those friends and love interests, painful as it was, was for nothing. That they've missed out. It's a very cruel joke.

Q. I simply ask, why is PUNISHMENT the solution with regards to the narrow group of behaviors which encompass illegal drug use....?

A.Pharmaceutical Business, both legal and illegal, run by the same people either way, money coming to the middle from both ends.  Bush.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: billie the dwarf on November 17, 2004, 06:45:00 PM

hi boys and girls, new person here. did some checking...  do any of you know about mk ultra? or the monarch mind control protocols? are any of you aware that these seed-type programs grew out of a mass psyops on the citizens of the u.s. to purposely destroy their sense of worth and to program you for failure? there is a hierachy that follows from the top down, stretching from the n.s.a./ c.i.a into churches like synanon later the seed, straight, etc., etc., etc. the original funding came from the dupont line... strictly illuminati, folks. why program for failure? they want their chattel to be good little workers and sparklebox dullards so you are easily controlled. period. i'm sorry for all of us who went through that negative experience, but take heart we're waking up now to the strength of that externally applied programming and how it has massively affected our lives. congrats to all here who are shedding the fragmentation that occurred through the abuses of that. dudes, i know this might ring a bell for you because if you actually google these pieces it will fall into place for you. think... a gov.  and illuminati sponsored top-down program to dumb down the masses, strip them of their personal power, make them dependant on external authority, shame them into submission and ironically enough ,shut down any budding higher psychic senses they had naturally from birth.
  dudes, art barker was agency all the way ... a goddamn chump who was also controlled from his superiors. look at the facts before  you make a judgement on this. you were programmed with mk ultra and monarch psyops protocols which we are now waking up from. are you pissed? i am. it's like, get over the little seed. the real meaning of that experience is that it was a huge centrally coordinated program, nation-wide, that you hed a personal experience with. what a bomb huh? what a goddamn monster.
  i was in dania seed in 72-73. took way too long to "get off my program". i never said much. i got "stood up"  once for not having any vibes! fcuk those clowns! reason for no vibes was passive resistance. i couldn't get with the program. when they finally let me off i had no reaction and that barker dress-alike kenny asked me why. i didn't answer him. i went to a coupla oldtimer meetings and never looked back... until now- with these revelations of it's true pure evil nature.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2004, 11:09:00 PM

Billy, it is so difficult to believe you are talking this way. I remember a day that I was graduate and you came into The Seed and Art had you sit up on a stool, in was in th 80's and all os us were persuaded to respect you as if you had all these unanawered questiopns for us. you were a living myth at The Seed. believe me everyone talked about you, staff certainly did not get tired of praising you amd your abilities. It is so weird to hear you now.Please be clear about your messages because your last post was a bit rambled. Where do u stand with everything?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2004, 11:15:00 PM

i was in dania seed in 72-73. took way too long to "get off my program". i never said much. i got "stood up"  once for not having any vibes! fcuk those clowns! reason for no vibes was passive resistance. i couldn't get with the program. when they finally let me off i had no reaction and that barker dress-alike kenny asked me why. i didn't answer him. i went to a coupla oldtimer meetings and never looked back... until now- with these revelations of it's true pure evil nature.

"
[/quote]


Oh my god this is realllyy sacry shot . He is right!!!!

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: billie the dwarf on November 17, 2004, 11:25:00 PM

hi again all you waking angels.  i just wanted to say that i would have run but i had a broken leg while there, a cast from crouch to toe, bless you greg, for this forum. very important.
 i wanna be an ass for a while . you don't hafta post this post.
 STAFF MEMBERS AT THE SEED FROM LATE 72 INTO EARLY 73.  (BARKER BITCHES)
   
  1, kenny, a medium sized blonde guy always on the boys side scrutinizing the seeds. germanic, asshole. withholding piss reuests. torturer. i laughed my ass off one day when naziboy showed up in some of my new clothes- stolen in inspection got a seed job in stimson factory, pompano. stamping, govt contracts. kenny's dad was my foreman. i went to shake his hand the first day on the job and he grabbed my hand, twisted it outward exposing my inner forearm and said " just looking for tracks". a dick. kenny tried to copy artie's dressing style. so did some gay looking john denver style christian guy. clowns. parrots.
  2. dana, a black guy looling like link on the mod squad. he had the disdainful glare down. fcuk, he didn't even know me yet he radiated hate to me. he led the "upstairs group" meets some. in training.an effective prick
  3. fat darlene. ahhh a nice rap, darlene... then, BOOM,stand up and get a new ass whole. true schitzoid agency conditioning. very effective.
  4. some monkey looking black chic who always sang amazing gra... and did morning programming i mean raps. she showed up in one of my shirts. when she walked by after her inspiring crap,i said to her" that shirt is mine" everybody around heard me.she lost her resolve for a split second. bad me and another rebel usta sing harmony to everyone elses melody during songs. you shoulda seen staff faces flashing around looking for the nonconformi9sts.
  5.some junky guy with a walleye. sell you out in a heartbeat.
  ^. john(walking death) the former(yeah right) junkie. a true reptillian.
  6.art barker. dressed in white.clown.  south florida cia asset for mk ultra program.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2004, 11:26:00 PM

An integral part of MK-Ultra is Project Monarch perhaps the most damning episode in the history of mind control, whereby the minds of women and children are brutally taken over in order to provide paedophiles, politicians, criminals and practising Satanists with willing sex slaves who could also double as covert operatives by having their personalities and memories switched on and off at will.


SORRY BILLY what does this have to do with The Seed. I beleive you are far off in left field. Believe me, there are much negatives to seed as well as some positives but what does this have to do with thereality of the program as it manifested itself?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Stripe on November 18, 2004, 09:51:00 AM

Those os you reading this subject may think Billy is off, wrong, weird or just out there.  But guess what, he's not.  It's tough to admit youv'e been fooled, used and programmed.  That's why it's clled programming...

I too remember these people.  Saw that Dana/Link- look alike up at FSU in the student union hanging out. His physical presence brought that terror to my gut.  If you can't believe the history, you have to believe what your body tells you.  IT's that fight or flight instinct that kicks in when and animal is threated.

Billy, I'm with you all the way, brother.  Thanks so much for the structure information.  GregFL has put some stuff up on other discussion threads that fits right in with the whole programming.  

Itis my belief that those seedlings among us who are so resistent to the idea that perhaps Art & Seed did not have our bests intersts at heart need only think back ...we were told, among other things...we were an army. Encourged to think alike, tlak alike, dress alike and preserve the whole "us against them" mindset  Whassup with that?  If that mind control, what the fuck was it?????

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Robin Martin on November 19, 2004, 12:35:00 AM

Quote

I too remember these people. Saw that Dana/Link- look alike up at FSU in the student union hanging out. His physical presence brought that terror to my gut. If you can't believe the history, you have to believe what your body tells you. IT's that fight or flight instinct that kicks in when and animal is threated.

Funny you mention Dana at FSU. Dana and I became good friends only AFTER I graduated and he was no longer on staff.  He was a very intelligent, wise, compassionate human being and although I have lost touch w/ him, know he became something great.  Linc lookalike??  Well, duh - wasn't that the "style" then?  I believe there was also a black female w/ an afro also.  Does that make her a Linc lookalike?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on November 19, 2004, 11:49:00 AM

Welcome to our new poster.

Do me a favor, since there really  is a Billie the dwarf from the seed, please confirm whether it is you or not.

If it is you, welcome again.  If it is not, please change your handle out of respect for him.

Thank you, and tell us a story about something that happened to you while you were there.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 01:15:00 PM

"  Does that make her a Linc lookalike?"

Robin:
I don't think so and I won't be baited into that conversation. Misdirect.  Nice try though.

My statement about the guy was based on my personal observation and my experieces at Ft.L84.  Obviously you knew the guy post-seed. I chose not to associate with Seed people after that program because I thought they were weird and frankly, I was weird, too.  Way to fragmented is the only way I can describe the end result of my experience.  

Robin, I've read enough of your positngs to know you  believe in the program,it saved your life and that's fine for you.  But please don't make assumptions about me. You don't know me,you never did and to try to bait me into some kind of racial argument is just plain unfair.  Misdirect.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 02:03:00 PM

"Monkey looking Black chick"??????????? ::ftard::
Are you Archie Bunker?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 02:06:00 PM

OK sorry ... maybe Archita Bunker ::bigmouth::

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Somejoker on November 19, 2004, 03:20:00 PM

any chance of getting this thread away from personalities and back on topic?  It really has been a good conversation.

And last anon, you have now trolled up 84 posts. You ever gonna choose a user name?

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 03:36:00 PM

maybe not :roll:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 05:12:00 PM

I may be wrong bit I do beleive Billy the dwarf past away a few years ago.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 07:33:00 PM

It is funny to listen to all this talk about the inner circle from people who knew very little about the so-called inner circle. Per say there was no inner circle just some people Art would invite over to have dinner it was no big deal.

     Yes it is true some of the people seemed to be favorites of Art but there were no secret meetings planning or mind psyops discussions I know because I was often invited over to his house. I will say on most occasions I did feel uncomfortable because I put too much pressure on myself to behave in a correct manner. Art made many attempts to bring me closer to him including inviting me to dinner, play golf; I worked on his boat, ect. I can only theorize why he tried to show me some affection probably because he saw I was pretty decent and my heart was good along with the fact that I was pretty stable. I also had a good sense of humor something Art always loved but also considered to be important. In the end I was not as close to him as he wanted me to be out of my own fear and insecurity. I knew Art fairly well to this day and he might have his faults as we all do but the one thing he did not lack in was his good intentions for what he saw as his kids. Kind of like an over protective parent.

All this talk of secret covert experiments through government agencies is all most laughable. First of all if you knew Art it would be very hard to picture him as a hard core republican as long as I have know him he has been nothing but a liberal democrat (just to put a label in today?s terms). Art always had a distain for government agencies especially in type of government control of the Seed. Yes in the beginning he was given a government grant this only lasted about 2 years and ever since then the Seed existed on donations. You really want to know who were the biggest donors all you have to do is look at yourself (Seed kids were and in the early days Seed parents) along with a one-time donation when someone came on the program. While a person was on the program the Seed asked parents to help pay the expenses of the person until they graduated or were given permission to go back to work, To give you an example I paid back in the early 80?s about $ 300.00 a month this included rent, food, power ect. Even back then I thought that was a dam good deal. All expenses were pooled together as to make things cheaper and more affordable (by today?s standards this would be considered a type of socialism).

    To say that Seed people had a secret agenda to control the world or that we were unwilling participants in some covert experiment is ridiculous only our own mammoth egos and over inflated sense of self-importance would ever lead us to even considered this. Some programs did result or had its genesis from the Seed mold but there are no direct relation between these programs or Art Baker except for some people who used Art?s methods as mold in the development of their programs.

As per the guy who fraudulently is using the handle of ?Billy the Dwarf ? is nothing more than that. I can?t help to think this guy would have been good during the 60?s in South America spreading the Marxists doctrine in the ?Third World Movement? under the command of Internationalism, an arm of the old Soviet communist propaganda machine that basically took a once of truth and would turn into 10 pounds of Shit. The only difference is that the old Marxists were smarter and made a lot more sense.
   Maybe in the end all that really happened with the so-called inner circle is that it became a click. Including only those people who had acquire some amount of wealth. The biggest thing they were guilty of was taken vacations together while excluding people that could not afford the lifestyle. Basically their heads got to big and they forgot where they came from (a Nuevo rich mentality). I maintain the attitude if it works for them so be it. Some if not most of these people are old friends of mine and I still consider them in the same light even if I do not see eye to eye with some of their ways.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: billie the dwarf on November 19, 2004, 10:47:00 PM

billie was not a dwarf, billie was a midget.if i had called myself billie the midget, that would be fraudulent, like calling myself art the saviour.                                                                                                      the mind control thing is no conspiracy. it is real, in the u.s., and YOU were subjected to it's protocols. sorry.

do your own homework, dont listen to me.
try educateyourself.org.  awareness 101. or better yet try thinking yourself, or are you still" on your program." denial: when ten pounds of shit is on your face and you won't acknowledge the smell

i think the greatest thing i see on this forum is that a bunch of people here are divesting themselves of their programming. it's almost not important where it came from but that you are free or breaking free of it. that's all.
 
if i pissed somebody off with my staff characterizations, too bad. those people were conscious of the evil they foisted on others. they were the best drones, most suseptible, most accepting, best art parrots, and most fake.
 
  completely misguided or souless meatsack, whichever, how could  a person (sic) like that hope to run an agenda to (did someone say) control the world?  yawn.



nor were these sellouts part of a covert experiment. the tests were done in the 50"s. it was the real op, dude. the gullible sychophants would have never noticed. surely you can see how the staff were royally played. but still complicit.

i told you it's from the top down. follow the foundation money and wake the fuck up. somebody here made a nice flow chart. see how many synanon smell alikes there are nationwide, all supported by war on drugs money, fed money, illuminatti foundation money and many sideways sweet deals from business types. i'm a skeptic. when thirty hammers fall on my head i see puzzle pieces falling................................into place.

i hadn't thought about this  shit for 30 years.(i've been in south america spreading marxist doctrine to troubled teens hooked on hate, control, disfunction,torture and disdain for anything human or heart centered) then something else dovetailed into this revelation. art was no hero. he was a paid program director, about lieutenant grade, equal to every other program director nationwide.it's evolution was planned, gradual, run from the top down and targeted specifically at people our age. it's exactly the same shit that's been going on at daycare centers nationwide, especially the a.b.c. logo type. lots of child abuse cases,locally squelched, kangaroo courted, and covered up. massive. too awful to contemplate, really.

 and now a seed story.

 john, an ok guy sitting next to me all morning, had to piss. he asked the staff on the side to go the guy(kenny) would never let him go. this went on all morning. about lunchtime they were standing up someone up and john raised his hand to get in the sick fray, or so they thought. they picked him and he stood up and loudly pronounced," if you don't let me go to the bathroom i;m giong to piss right here. the stupid place was stunned. he had hijacked the whole self-hate conditioning scam on some hapless little kid and set a challenge that had to be dealt with then. he stayed standing when they told him to sit and pissed mightily in his pants. bravo. he was escorted out and some underling suck-up came and twirled a filthy worn out mop in it.

 and another

 a guy from saint pete was at our seed and in my sponsors house. i thought he was a cool guy because he had gained my confidence in talking privately. i told him that i would split that scene in a heartbeat if my leg wasn't broken. it was idle chatter as i had no plan, nothing. he seemed to be helpful and genuinely nice.days later he was gone. days later i was interrogated in an upper room privately. i couldn't for the life of me figure out where these fucks were coming from. then it hit me like a ton of bricks. sold out by st. pete guy. ouch.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on November 20, 2004, 02:02:00 PM

Welcome, "Billie". Glad you came along. Personally, I think you're just about dead on correct. That's why I've pulled together forums on a whole lot of these Synanon based programs. I want people to be able to compare notes and find the commonalities among these programs, regardless of the various syles of window dressing.

Thank Wes Fager for the flow chart. It only shows a tiny little corner of the bigger picture; only those programs and connections radiating back and forward from Straight. But you're right,  Bobby fucking DuPont has had a hand in The Seed, Straight and other Synanon based programs right from the beginning. So far, I haven't seen solid proof that he's one of the DuPonts, so I don't know for sure. But it seems quite likely.

Same for the government/Illuminati scenareo. It certainly is no accident that this particular Program is now implimented so broadly in America and abroad (you do know about TOUGHLOVE Australia and Italy's brand new, first ever private prison corporation, right?) Though I can't prove intent or complicity on the part of any individuals or groups, the basic consept sure explains a lot and looks an awful lot like historical accounts of humans behaving badly down through the ages. So Occam's Razor dictates that we accept it as an operating hypothesis.

Anyone who wants to insist that the Program was not an intentional effort to break us down to a slave mentality, please come up w/ a better, simpler explanation for how kids intered in programs like WWASP, ELAN, CEDU, Provo Canyon and others happened to adopt weird lingo like "deadinsaneorinthegutter" and "gamey" and "clicking" (when they mean cliquing). A good place to start might be by offering your thoughts on the primal, two part question where any good investigator always starts; who's fuckin' who and where'd the money go?

"Give me the nations children and Germany shall rule the world" --Hitler

"Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups."
--Chaz Bufe

Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.

----Bill Warbis

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on November 20, 2004, 07:28:00 PM

Well, I am not one for conspiracy theories. The notion that Art Barker was a CIA operative causes me chuckles.

That the government was interested in coercive mind control is documented. They army did a study at the synanon and later the feds started funding synanons across the country.

Billie, you gotta come up with more than supposition to make your theories fly. Art got cut out of the federal funding loop for refusing to have clients sign waivers acknowledging they were going into experimental treatment. No CIA guy would ever do that. Art was never part of the republican machine that came after the seed, fueled by the ambitions of Straight and helped along again by Bobbie Dupont. Wanna do some credible research...look into the dupont synanon..seed...straight connection and how the government was really involved. This would be helpfull, not some wild theory.

I would also like to suggest to you once again you change your user name out of respect for the real Billie, whever he is, alive or dead.

Thank you.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2004, 08:35:00 AM

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think Art was listed as a CIA agent on the official payrole or anything. I think they played him. I do think that there's a discernable pattern here involving federal agencies propagating and protecting Synanon style brainwashing. I think it's conceivable, even plausible, that Bobby DuPont essentially ordered up a search for charismatic megalomaniacs w/ heavy leanings toward AA for placement in various regions as the head of Synanons for teenagers and Art and Joe Ricci fit that bill. And I think there are probably others who we haven't found out about yet. Bob Meehan's operation certainly supports the idea that this is no coincidence. This could easily be part of COINTELPRO http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cointelpro (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cointelpro)

At the same time, the CEDU/PC/(eventually)WWASP schools were developed under a very similar model.

The real kicker? I think they've been playing w/ fire by romancing the religious fundies. I know of one organization, Institutes for Basic Life Principles headed by a guy named Bill Gothard, that tasks their best protégés to FEMA training and relief efforts. They're also the origin of the "Character First" line of seminars and school curriculum that Brother Jeb and Camilla are so enamored of. If history is any instructor, and I don't know of a better one, they could easily go all Taliban on us and pretty much take over pretty large swaths of real estate.

For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on November 21, 2004, 03:53:00 PM

george h w bush was agency director before vice president. he was never, is not now and won't ever be nonagency. the documented business dealings with the semblers, bobby fucking du pont and others clearly show the connections. you may be right about art being played but i think he was paid also. this is just the local stuff as you say. the behavior mod model being foisted on people everywhere is massive.
 antigen ,thanks for your thoughts and research.
 i hope everyone here continues to heal and prosper.  goodbye for now.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on November 21, 2004, 07:40:00 PM

Interesting shit, anon. Thanks.

Bigot: One fanatically devoted to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and intolerant of those who differ.
Webster's

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2004, 11:21:00 PM

hi.  look and see how this horrible shit goes all the way up and back to pure, luciferic evil. barker,semmbler, dupont,bush sr., harriman, MENGELE.

can i say reptoid now or is that over the top?

our seed exp. was this same type of trauma-based conditionong.
http://educate-yourself.org/mc/promisek ... un04.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/mc/promisekeepersmctechniques11jun04.shtml)

we escaped that tentacle, or are still escaping it. thank god.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2005, 10:22:00 PM

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Helpful Hints for Mind Control Victims

By Don Croft
http://educate-yourself.org/dc/helpform ... ov04.shtml (http://educate-yourself.org/dc/helpformcvictims08nov04.shtml)
November 8, 2004

Robert--I've heard from thousands of people over the years who want help getting relief from psi torture at the hands of the CIA and/or British MI6. In fact, I honestly believe that most of the males whom I'm involved with and a lot of the females came out of one or another of the CIA's Monarch programs, including MK ULtra, which was apparently the one I was 'drafted' into as a small child.

The common feature of a prolific gifter, in fact, is someone, like me, who has spent much of his life having been shunted into dead end, horrific love relationships, no viable career and otherwise socially isolated due to a whole lot of self destructive programming laid on after washing out of one or another deep mind control program because of character issues. A handler is usually assigned to ensure that any opportunities for liberating the suferer will be snatched away or sabotaged, if possible.

They can't use kids who have strong characters, but they apparently never give up trying until after puberty, when one's personality is pretty much set. After an asset is deemed unsalvagable, they generally load the poor chump up with self destructive post-hypnotic programming and turn him/her loose. They found out pretty early on, apparently, that it's not feasible to just murder us all.

There are many, many thousands of us in the West and Asia who are Monarch washouts, I believe, and we represent a tiny percentage of the ones who are active assets. We're the ones whom people ask,'You're so smart, nice and talented, so why is your life such a mess?' . It may be that most of the people in the MC forum are in this predicament, but I don't know. The few of the still-active Monarch assets we've encountered and been unable to help are in constant pain and are perhaps programmed to actually identify with it, perhaps. These are sent into viable forums in order to destabilize them, I believe, as loose cannons. This makes moderating take up way too much time, so people generally choose not to moderate.

I set up a private forum for this reason, in fact. I don't need to moderate ethericwarriors.com because the posters there are almost never obtuse. If you post this on the MC board you'll shortly see who savagely attacks me and there are your active assets, most likely. There are thousands of programmed and/or paid sociopaths messing up internet forums right now, mostly in the English language ones, by the way. Our affiliated French, German and Spanish forums (the German and French ones are public) don't have this problem nearly as bad as we did until we finally set up the private board last summer. Yahoo hosted the first forum, by the way, and kicked me off the day after I posted simple instructions for transmuting the energy from the then-new death towers. Yahoo is owned by the CIA, of course.

Since mind control assets don't draw a paycheck and are expendable, why would the CIA or MI6 be concerned for their welfare or safety? We've encountered homeless drug addicts who are active MK assets, on call for murder and sabotage. MKids are also presidents, corporate execs., generals, privates, academics, clergy, etc. This is a comprehensive program. I"m told by a former insider that the entire Delta Force are MKids and a couple of 'washout' (former commandos in British SAS) have been prolific gifters..

Some MKids around our very nice small town used to converge and stalk my wife any time she went for a walk after sunset (she carried a weapon, of course) in this middle class neighborhood. Since she's telepathic, she was able to do some interesting programming. What got her attention is that when she looked into their minds while they were stalking her, all she heard was white noise interspersed with specific orders from the CIA handlers, like, 'If she moves into the shadows over there, cut her up.' The CIA doesn't like us much. Since we gifted her walking route, they've left her alone but these teens look like they could be working in McDonalds or on the high school debate team--they're not goths.

As someone who makes his livlihood in the healing trade I can tell you that anyone who's in pain is essentially a sociopath. If I have a toothache anyone would be wise to steer clear of me, for instance.

Honestly, I've only encountered a few people who just won't let go of their pain. Anyone else who's beleaguered with any of the various psionic tortures meted out by the CIA and MI6 can overcome the pain and also overcome their tormentors these days, I believe. Since this unorganized effort got going in that pursuit, we've noticed a marked change in the nature of the attacks. Before, the filthy fed agencies (except the FBI range of agencies, who are simply street thugs) had boasted a huge army of trained, mature psychic predators and surveillors.

Since we all blast the snot out of everyone who sends a tone into an ear, sends grisly visual imagery, gives us the sense that someone's looking over our shoulder, gets eye contact with us from a fedmobile (only their psychics will do this), or otherwise invades our awareness, we don't encounter many of these predators any more. Lately, in fact, the ones the CIA, MI6, Mossad and NSA are throwing at us are apparently just drugged, aggressive psychic teens. It reminds me of the way Hitler armed kids and threw them in the front lines as the Allies advanced on Berlin.

Since most of the people in the MC forum may feel that the world order is more predatory than parasitic, it may be useful for them to consider that this is not true. The world order is parasitic. I started out in the parasite extermination biz [body parasites] 8 1/2 years ago and I learned, then, how easilly parasites can be disabled and destroyed. I haven't seen that the macroparasites are any more threatening. This rotten world order is no more than a paper tiger; the man behind the curtain. If that weren't so, I'd have been killed before now.

The ones I know who have done the most thorough job go about this in the spirit of service, though. It may be that you and your associates noticed an increase in pain and disorientation when the new death towers were erected three years ago. I think this is becuase the towers were created for controlling the population. They sure didn't improve cellphone reception.

Here's our recommended protocol for getting rid of psionic torture and punishing the torturers:

Get the cheap model [$89] from http://www.zapchecker.com (http://www.zapchecker.com) and use it on each other to find the many implants that each of you no doubt have, then tape a neodymium magnet over each one for a half hour or so. The magnets we use for this in our travels are 1/2" diameter and 1/4" thick.

An Implant Killer from ethericfire.com gives some added benefit, especially if you're disabling an older implant with a poison capsule. Any zapper on the market will disable the poison, don't worry, if you'll wear it constantly when you experience discomfort from disabling an implant's released poison. This isn't the norm, by the way.

Millions of people have implants now--essentially anyone in the world who is a threat or even a potential threat to this occult/corporate world order gets implanted regularly. When I went to Uganda, three of my African fellow 'road warriors' had them; one had eight. We busted most of the death towers in that country last year.

Bust all the death towers within two or three miles--the neighborhood towers are obviously only effective at short range. Implants are mainly transponders, which is certainly in line with the 'Syntel' notion. I hadn't heard of that, by the way, thanks. I frankly haven't studied much about mind control, though a good friend of mine had been an MK Ultra mind controller (most Monarch Program assets, thanks to dissociative programming, 'work'in an altered state and none of this is conciously remembered) for the CIA before he was shot thru the throat and killed by a sniper in 99. As I mentioned, I just don't come across many people who can't easily overcome thier psi assailants.

The recommendations below describe how to easily disable the new death towers and turn them into life force generators. Thousands of people around the world are doing this. These new towers are seen literally everywhere, even in Tibet. Dr Batiibwe and I, at considerable risk, drove through a war torn area of Uganda and disabled six of these in Gulu, an isolated, crippled refugee town in the north. How many cellphones do you reckon a population which can't afford bicycles have?

One of my wife's Harmonic Protectors will deflect any directed energy weapon attack, even microwave. She was assaulted not long ago during a walk, in fact, from an airborn weapon. She felt a little queer and noticed that the grass around her had suddenly died, then 'saw' the attackers and smacked them good. A friend of ours wasn't as fortunate a couple months before: He was standing in his backyard when he was similarly assaulted, but he wasn't wearing one of those pendants and he was overwhelmed at the moment, soon got cancer and nearly died. He did fire off an etheric blast at his attackers, though, before they were done and this guy's been able to literally shoot down aircraft, apparently, by directing energy at the engines. Most of us don't have that talent and aside from my wife and him, I've never heard of anyone being attacked this way.

We visited him and saw the characteristic patch of dead, yellow grass right in the middle of the lush green lawn that seems to characterize these attacks, which are rare, by the way. When Carol took me to see the place she was attacked (it was still summer) I saw the same characteristic, sharp-edged patch of yellow in the middle of the green grass. He's the one who has ethericfire.com and within a month he'd cured his cancer with a zapper and was on the mend, otherwise. We visited him after that and he had obviously not fully recovered yet. He disabled many thousands of new death towers in and around Los Angeles, by the way, and is the fellow who's mainly responsible for the disappearance of most of the smog and chemtrails there and the abundant rainfall and uncharacteristic greenery on the mountainsides.. I think Riverside [county, California] is the last stronghold of crappy energy in the region. Nobody's taken that on yet.

After one has disabled the transponders and the death towers one can focus all attention, then, on pursuing the assailants. We each learn the ropes by using energy tools first, then after awhile most of us just don't need tools. The Succor Punch (SP) is always handy for disabling surveillance devices in our immediate environment, though. I guarantee that each of you have a half dozen or so bugs in your car, a few dozen in the house and cameras aimed at your property, which might explain why these jerkwads are in your face every time you go buy a loaf of bread.

The SP will stop them listening to your conversations and watching your private time. Most of us take one along during our gifting runs so that the jerkwads wont' know exactly where we are without using their eyeballs. If they can see you, then, you can see them. Don't let people see where you put the gifts. The instructions cover that.

I'm not going to get into the details of blasting the miscreants who are torturing you becuase until you've done the above homework you'll be too distracted to be effective. Otherwise, you're free to read whatever's said about that in the reports on ethericwarriors.com, which is the cutting edge site for what we're discussing. A lot of the folks who post there used to be in your boat and you can correspond with them if they've put their contact info out.

I developed the Powerwand after being gassed to sleep, severely poisoned, and marked two years ago, the same night that five others across the US were similarly treated by CIA wetworkers. That was sort of the last straw for me and ever since I started attacking the various filthy fed agencies' assailants and would-be assailants with the PW the murder attempts have been a lot less overt. The zapper neutralized the poison, but just barely, apparently :wink: and the rattlesnake venom I got from a bite in August was much easier to neutralize with zapping.

The Harmonic Protector, which my wife developed for herself because she's energy sensitive (the towers all make her sick when we travel), apparently works by reinforcing the etheric field around the body by transmuting any harmful energy that comes in contact with the etheric field. It's similar to the way fifty cents worth of resin, metal shavings and a funky crystal chunk can turn a million dollar death transmitter into life force generator but the HP uses specific metals, gemstones and a coil form to make it do something similar to the body's own energy field. Carrying a Towerbuster around would help an awful lot, of course, but it's bulkier and less user friendly. We treat our field pieces kind of like beasts of burden--it's just more appropriate for them to be out working in the environment.

http://www.knivesandcrystals.com (http://www.knivesandcrystals.com) is a brand new site that will feature etheric weaponry and offer gemstones and minerals for enhancing personal orgonite devices. http://www.soulbalm.com (http://www.soulbalm.com) is a new site that will feature devices that can bring harmony back to one's personal environment.

I'd gotten some references to Ernie Vega in personal correspondence but had never felt the urge to check him out until I got your note that references him, Robert; that's why I asked you for his website. I'm interested in anythign out there that's genuinely new. Tech can be a double edge sword, generally, but none of the items we offer or promote can do any harm.

The bottom line, for us, is that when one's motivation for healing from this pain and suffering is to better serve our fellows the personal healing will be profound. If one only wants to heal to end his/her personal suffering the healing will be more superficial and conditional. We prefer to get involved with and help the former, of course.

~Don

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Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 06, 2005, 10:37:00 PM

Implants, eh?


Oh brother...... :roll:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2005, 11:59:00 PM

Weekly World News?

Since you [US "drug tsar" McCaffrey] control a federal budget that has just been increased from $17.8 billion last year to $19.2 billion this year, is asking people like you if we should continue with our nation's current drug policy like a person asking a barber if one needs a haircut? --
                                                              Orange Country, California
                                                                  Los Angeles Times
                                                                    29 March 2000
--Judge James P. Gray

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: cleveland on January 07, 2005, 09:13:00 AM

OK - pretty good (fiction) writing, or pure paranoia...

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 07, 2005, 10:20:00 AM

I vote # 2.

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Stripe on January 07, 2005, 05:49:00 PM

I agree this might seem far fetched in its totality, but do you guys agree or disagree with the proposition contained in the last paragraph?

"The bottom line, for us, is that when one's motivation for healing from this pain and suffering is to better serve our fellows, the personal healing will be profound. If one only wants to heal to end his/her personal suffering, the healing will be more superficial and conditional."

Think about that for just a second.

Now think about this:  What was the motivation behind in Seed programming?  To better serve fellow man or to promote an agenda we had no ability to comprehend.  

I'm thinking the latter, since the reports I read here about others show that most folks, with the exception of a few regulars, actually did not do so well once they were program graduates.  

Once a  pawn, always a pawn?  Call them paranoid ideas or information suitable for reporting by Weekly World News and make fun if you like. We all approach trying to heal ourselves from different angles - why else would we be here doing this?  Besides, if clearing energy paths works and makes a diffence, we all benefit.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2005, 12:31:00 AM

Quote

On 2005-01-07 14:49:00, Stripe wrote:

We all approach trying to heal ourselves from different angles - why else would we be here doing this?  Besides, if clearing energy paths works and makes a diffence, we all benefit.  

"

Ya think??  I agree!!

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: cleveland on January 08, 2005, 08:21:00 AM

I don't want to substitute one form af magical thinking for another - the Seed capitalized on my gullibility, to just "do not think," to accept irrationality.

I'm not a purist on this - I think astrology is interesting, I am intriqued by religion, and I do think the government, military and corporations are full of manipulation.

But for me the bottom line will be rationality, and maybe I'll temper that with accepting that I can't know or understand everything...

But wild assertions? Just because it's emotionally appealing sometimes to say, "Hmm hmm, you know that's right," - no thanks, I think it's dangerous to give in to that.

Maybe if I'd asked the Seed to 'prove it,' and I'd listened to the sceptical voice inside, I wouldn't have believed all of the half-truths the Seed passed on to me....

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2005, 10:54:00 AM

What half truths do you speak of?  Please elaborate.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: cleveland on January 09, 2005, 08:45:00 AM

That I 'couldn't make it on my own out there'

That if I ever had a drink, that I 'might as well give up then because I'd already be so far gone'

That people are either Seedlings, or 'dry druggies'

That 'honesty is the first and most important rule;' however, questioning Art, staff or the Seed is 'totally fucked up.'

That my Higher Power can be whatever, it doesn't matter - 'it could be that stool over there' but 'for me it's the Group.' (for me, it's a life-long search.)

That all girls are 'gamey'

That 'getting into your head' or analyzing thiings, is bad - 'ours is but to do or die, not to reason why'

And for me, personally, that reading books, having an intellegent discussion, or thinking, is 'showing off,' or that making artwork is 'for girls'

Those were things I was told (in quotes) or taught and I have found them to be wrong.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 09, 2005, 03:36:00 PM

And there are more...many more.

How about this one  "I could never leave the seed..the songs would play over and over in my head and I think I would end up insane."

Or even this one  "when I was on the streets".

Fuck, most of us were suburban kids from upper middle class to wealth families.  On the streets? Hardly. It was part of the big lie to make your past extra bad in order to justify the crazy cultic aspects of the seed.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2005, 05:29:00 PM

"That my Higher Power can be whatever, it doesn't matter - 'it could be that stool over there' but 'for me it's the Group.'"


did anyone ever say anything else?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 09, 2005, 07:15:00 PM

Cliff (staff member) once stated that it (our higher power) could be that 'lightbulb' over there. I clearly recall this because Robert (another staff member) later angrily disagreed with that statement. A rare thing in itself, since staff never seemed to disagree on anything of significance.

In fairness, I think cliff's point was that you didn't have to conform to some specific idea of god or diety. That you could believe in allah or yahweh or brahma, etc. The seed wasn't trying to impose a particular religion on members. The seed itself became a sort of defacto religion for many however.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 09, 2005, 07:34:00 PM

The standard line was "God to me is the group", even tho they repeated the AA version, I don't remember anyone saying it was anything other than the group.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Stripe on January 10, 2005, 11:09:00 AM

And I can see your point, too.  That you don't want to substitute one kind fo magical thinking for another.  Skepticism is very healthly - there's just no certain answers to any of these quesions, are there?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 10, 2005, 03:18:00 PM

Sounds like someone in St. Pete was pretty mean.  I never said those things nor did I hear people tell others that.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 10, 2005, 03:20:00 PM

The light bulb thing- people finally stopped saying that.  That always confused me. :idea:
I remember the first time I heard it all I co0uld think of was "son of sam".

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 10, 2005, 03:23:00 PM

How about "you wern't shit on the streets" we never really said it except in jest from what I can remember.   ::hehehmm::

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 10, 2005, 04:26:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-01-10 12:23:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"How about "you wern't shit on the streets" we never really said it except in jest from what I can remember.   ::hehehmm:: "

Funny how different we remember things. I remember one instance, and it was reported in the press, where a little 13 year old girl was stood up and screamed at over and over. One of the things screamed at her was (by the chicks, the guys never said this)..."you weren't shit on the streets. You probably couldn't even fuck yourself with a coke bottle". She was left in tears after being told how worthless and unlovable she was "on the streets". This was not an exception but rather the rule of the day and most kids sat in constant fear, never knowing when their turn to get publically lambasted was coming up.  

That line, the coke bottle one, was used to sexually berate girls constantly. Also, guys would yell at girls "On the streets, I would of just used you for sex. No one could have liked you, you weren't shit on the streets". Or "I knew you on the streets, you weren't shit. You were a punk, a joke, and  everyone laughed at you behind your back".

Ft Lauderdale, this "you weren't shit on the streets"  line was a constant recurring theme but seldom funny. In fact, it was frightening. In additon, It was most often used to berate and humiliate people into submission in front of the group during "come down on you sessions".

Dude, how about doing me a favor. Think back to the "boys Rap" times and then think about how some of these young boys were made to confess their sexuall secrets there, and then were yelled and screamed at in these "boys raps" for the very things they confessed to earlier.

Please comment on this for me. Thanks.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 10, 2005, 04:32:00 PM

Sorry-  I never heard anyone confess sexual secrets in a rap... Nor did I ever hear anyone made fun of for anything sexual.  
The coke bottle thing -I find very repulsive.  
If this went on in St.Pete I'm glad I was never there.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: cleveland on January 10, 2005, 04:47:00 PM

Yes, I remember things like that too. "You couldn't even do it with a coke bottle." "I would have eaten you for breakfast on the streets" "There's nothing pretty about going to prison and getting fucked in the ass..."

Stuff like that DID get said. Usually when someone was way out of line, or when people were trying to scare a newcomer who had an attitude. I do remember people crying.

This kind of thing was pretty rare, though. Usually there was more joking, laughing instead of shame. But the harsh stuff was there...I'm surprised Ft. L. doesn't remember. i bet he's blocked it out, 'cause he's a gentle guy. Even if he was mad at some kid I never remember him saying more than, "oh boy, I'm so mad!"

I definitely got some of that harsh stuff when I was a newcomer.

Sexual secrets - on the one hand you were supposed to tell 'at least one other human being' everything; on the other, if I brought up anything sexual to staff I was told to 'get my head out of the gutter." I don't think we had Boy's Raps when I was there...

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 10, 2005, 07:37:00 PM

in 73, they would several times a week seperate the girls and boys into groups at the far end of the building. Then the sexual talk and confession would go on. Boys would be stood up and berated for being virgins.

This was some of the most terrifying times I had there. We used to do it at the end of the building and several times I thought of running thru the guarded door.

I told a story somewhere on this site about a kid admitting to giving some older guy a blow job. That same night they stood him up in group and came down hard on him and kept bringing this up. He soon disappeared and was never spoken of again.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Fran on January 10, 2005, 08:59:00 PM

I definitely remember the guys saying things like
"I would have used you blah blah blah" to some girls that may have had an attitude or two. Fortunately I do not remember details or particulars...I was just happy that I was never the brunt of the "come downs".
At 400pm I remember the chicks had their raps and the guys had theirs...I do not know what the guys talked about and I honestly don't remember what the chicks talked about.
But I do remember one kid that got reemed out and thinking boy do I feel sorry for him.
The thing I remember the most that I hated was that there were a few oldtimers that seemed to have an ego problem and were stroked by the staff...this one girl her name was Robin basically thought her shit didn't stink ...and her best friend Marcy (I won't put last names) boy did they feel superior and they made me feel inferior. To the point that finally when I stopped going to the oldtimers meetings I felt so free of them and the looks I'd get that made me feel guilty even if I didn't do anything. If I ever ran into them today...I think I would tell them off!!

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2005, 08:11:00 AM

Robin passed away a few years ago.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2005, 08:12:00 AM

Really bad car accident.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Fran on January 11, 2005, 12:59:00 PM

To Anon:

Obviously you must have known the Robin I have mentioned...I am sorry to hear that she passed away.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 08:06:00 AM

Robin always reminded me of Fran Dresher "The Nanny" not the way she sounded the way she looked.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 08:07:00 AM

Marcy I remember as sweet & funny.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Fran on January 12, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

I wish I would have known them the way you did. Marcy went to the same school as I and lunchtime was a rap session with Marcy leading the sessions and her making us feel inferior and paranoid that if we said the wrong thing the seed would know about it. I never felt comfortable with her nor Robin. If I have bad feelings for the seed it was unfortunately due to those 2 people. And maybe they were that way because of their issues with the seed. At this point in my life...I will let go and realize that they were victims as I was.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 02:10:00 PM

Fran- why don't you also look at it like they were 16 yr olds as well.  Hey Robin intimidated me as a grad as well.  She was a much better speaker than me and she kind of turned her nose up at me as well.  In her princess like way.  Do you remember everyone talking about dreams back then?  I to this day rarely remember my dreams.  When I do they are extremely mundane and boring no excitement or fantacy.  Usually I sit up from a dead sleep and remember something semi important that I was suppose to do that day.  I guess thats also the extent of any nightmares as well... Anyway I remember about 30 yrs or so ago having a flying dream.  I was flying around Lauderhill Mall (which at the time was a very nice mall-not any longer)I was just flying from tree top to tree top - Robin saw me and had a look on her face like - How can he do that & I can't and she had a tweener with her skirt and I just smiled at her. ::bigsmilebounce::

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 02:17:00 PM

I wonder where the word "rap" originates from.  I was sent to a program in jay, fl that used the same word, but had nothing to do with any other program.  Interesting how the same word is used to symbolize such a destrucitve activity.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 02:21:00 PM

It was a hippy word from the 60's.  Like lets rap.  Let's talk.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 02:28:00 PM

Jay, FL isn't that like KKK territory? scary.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 03:41:00 PM

Ft Lauderdale, when you were flying around Lauderhill  mall, did you fly over to the record store and buy anything?

hehe..I worked there part time.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 12, 2005, 04:08:00 PM

Lauderhill mall. That brings back memories. I lived pretty close to it as an oldtimer and used to walk around there quiet a bit. It was nice at the time. I remember going to world bazaar, the bookstore and eating chocolate tophats from vi's bakery. Man! I miss those. Haven't found them anywhere else.

F.L. I know you want to preserve your anonymity, but since you remember me...did we know each other well enough to speak? I lived at the guy's apartments in lauderhill (?) for several months before I graduated the program.
 
OH! And I just thought of something else positive I learned at the seed. Rusty taught me to play Nights in White Satin on the guitar. And someone mentioned smoke-rings. I was so tickled when I learned to blow those.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 12, 2005, 04:11:00 PM

Raps. I've always wondered why some hippy words were ok to use at the seed and others weren't. Man, like, chick (seems very sexist). And robert seemed to get away with using even more racey or 'cool' language. I suspect this again goes back to what art considered ok. I recall art using some beatnik era lingo. He was always saying something was a gas.

But cool...that was a definite no no. Along with far-out, right-on or out of sight (this was early 70's). Music by all those mafioso, alcohol-drinking and pot smoking jazz and swing musicians was ok...because art liked it. Music by led zeppelin or pink floyd was not ok...a bunch of druggie assholes...is the way libby described led zeppelin when someone requested that a guy playing guitar in the group play stairway to heaven. I remember the guilt I felt the first time I put on some headphones and listened to Yes while an oldcomer. Listening to non-approved rock was 'rocking out'...like thinking non-approved thoughts was 'getting into your head' or philosophizing or if you questioned the inconsistency of any seed concept..you were just analyzing. All standard mind-control techniques. Thinking back on it, I'm not even sure that staff would have denied that it was all brainwashing or mindcontrol. It was too obvious. I think they just figured it was for a higher purpose...the ends justify the means.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 12, 2005, 04:18:00 PM

Art acknowledged in the press the seed was a "form of brainwashing." My father used to say my brain needed a good washing. The f'n congress of the united states reported that the seed used brainwashing techniques, and it was common knowledge among everyone.

It was no secret, and your right, it was all about the higher purpose..."saving" little kids from certian death, insanity or jail.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 04:28:00 PM

Yeah- I think you would remember me.  What Apts. did you live in Cranbrook?  Or did you live in Lauderhill with that tall kid and his Dad?  don't ask me why I just remembered  that.  I moved to Atlanta in 79 I think, George T. was my roomate.  He was from Albany.  A bunch of people were from Albany.  Yeah you would remember me. I moved back to Ft Laud in 79 or maybe I moved in 78. Damn I can't remember I know I missed I think Hurricane David. I just googled hurricane david & it was 79.  What time period were you there?  Oh may be it was those apts near the turnpike that Nick & his wife managed.  Where the guys had all the ferrett's.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 04:33:00 PM

When Rusty brought his trailer down from GA I lived with him there at the trailer park.  I almost forgot that I was trailer trash for a while.    ::bigsmilebounce:: .

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 04:36:00 PM

Marshall were you from Albany too or another small town in Ga.?  I actually visited Albany in 79 and saw Rusty's brother Jack.( God I remembering stuff as I type.)

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 12, 2005, 04:46:00 PM

No I can't remember the record store.  I do remember Orange Julius (always a food reference) and what was the name of the "Head shop" that was the cool store before I went to the Seed. I do remember before Jordan Marsh was there I worked in a Dept Store there but I can't remember the name- I do remember I was 17 and I had to take my first lie detector test- they asked if I ever used drugs- this is before I went to the Seed I decided to be honest & really was completely in another world- I copped to doing more drugs than I ever could have done but I thought I was telling the truth... example= how many times did you do acid, oh hundreds oK how about speed =oh hundreds-  I think they felt sorry for me and never fired me they probably just thought I was strange or something. :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2005, 04:50:00 PM

Hey Record store is your name Don?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 12, 2005, 06:27:00 PM

the head shop was the record store. It was on the south end near the jewish bakery/deli.  I worked there part time. Recently I posted that was where I ran into Suzy the last time I saw her.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 12, 2005, 06:30:00 PM

I was on the program from april 76 thru may 77. I stayed in ft. lauderdale for another year or so after graduating and attended broward community college. I was terrified to move back to georgia and face my old friends. Lived with graduates but none of us ever went back to the seed for meetings.

While on the program I lived in the apts. run by nick & his wife. That rang a bell. And the ferrets! Hell, I lived in that apt. too for awhile. Those things were vicious and bit me several times.  I remember George  & Jack too.  Yeah, I'm from close to albany. My daughter and son-in-law live there now.  I heard that a former staff member moved to albany around the time you visited.  I had some limited contact with a few of the seedlings there in the late 70's & remained friends with a couple of other guys from my program until the mid 80's.  My oldcomer even moved to ga. & lived with me and my parents for a few months when I first moved back home..before moving on to n.y.

 I remember John U. always ribbing us about georgia. 'Eveything north of commercial blvd. is ga. to me.' 'The best part about albany...is the by-pass.' Funny how some things stick in memory. I used to go back and visit friends in ft. lauderdale every few years. My wife & I spent our honeymoon there.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 08:25:00 AM

Marshall- do you remember when about a dozen of us took scuba lessons?  I don't think you took them.  One of the guys I remember him telling me that he was going to become a professional diver & meet up with his Dad that he had not been in contact with in years(I can't remember the complete story but he lived in the Virgin Islands) I remember telling him maybe he should think about a more stable job.  About a year or two later, I remember reading in Sports Illustrated that he & his Dad found millions of dollars in sunken treasure(I stopped giving that sort of advice ever since) .

Greg was the record store you worked in, in Lakes Mall or Lauderhill Mall?  Lakes (which is no longer there)  :grin: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-01-13 06:25 ]

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 08:26:00 AM

Marshall, did you work at Mother Butler Pies?
Thats no longer there either :cry2:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2005, 09:02:00 AM

Then where was lauderhill mall. Damn my oldtimers is acting up?

It might have been lakes mall. The amll was on 441 next to Hawaiin Gardens Condos and right near the apartment  building Cranbrook.

I really can't remember where lauderhill mall was, but now Lakes mall is coming into focus.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 09:23:00 AM

Greg:
Hawaiian Gardens is on Oakland Park Blvd.
OK Oakland Park Blvd= 30th Street.  Cranbrook was on 19th Street and Lauderhill Mall was between around 12 and 16th Streets (if that puts it in perspective any better)

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 09:50:00 AM

Boyd Anderson was also north of Oakland Park Blvd and Lakes Mall was North of Oakland Park Blvd too.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 13, 2005, 11:16:00 AM

ah hell, it was one of those malls!

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 13, 2005, 01:19:00 PM

No, F.L., I don't recall the scuba lessons. Since I was 17 when I first started the program I lived with foster families until after I turned 18. So it may have been before I lived at the apts. And no, didn't work at mother butler's. I remember several seedlings worked there though. I did work at Bagel Nosh for a few months. I remember the general atmosphere at the guy's apartments was much different than any of the foster families that I stayed with. It was much looser or easy going. For example, we commonly 'rocked-out' and listened to any music that we wanted to with no criticism....even around newcomers. Lakes mall had several theaters, right?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 01:32:00 PM

Yep- 6 movies at the time that was a big deal "Lakes 6" Other GA guys worked at Bagel Nosh back then too right?  Thats no longer there either
actually you could probably only find soul food around there now. Oh my God didn't Rick B. work there ? I was really close with him and his brother Roddy. Or maybe Grant worked there? This is funny I haven't thought of all these people in years.  As a matter of fact at this time period I have some really fond memories of people.  Lets see I probably was about 23 or so.   :smile:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2005, 01:47:00 PM

Lakes Mall it was!  The theatre was halfway down, and Bagel Nosh was next to the record store I worked at.  Cranbrook is where my incident occured with Art while he was frolicking in the pool with the teenage staff members, all in their bikinis.

What a pimp he was!

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2005, 01:48:00 PM

Now that this is settled, what is now where Lakes mall used to be?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 02:21:00 PM

Just for the record - they all were in at least their 20's and higher.

There is now a sports authority and I think an office supply store.  They also just built townhomes and condos on top of some retail stores.  It isn't quite finished yet.  

But Bagel nosh was on 23 or 24th Street (sorry not in the mall)

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2005, 02:48:00 PM

Okay, but there was this little jewish restaraunt next door to the record store that sold meat and potatoe kinishes, deli sandwiches, hebrew national hot dogs and other goodies.

20s eh?  STILL A PIMP.

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on January 13, 2005, 03:19:00 PM

Sorry but I don't remember the Deli I remember the candy poporn store next to the movies.  Years later like in 1983 or so I was in the record store with Susie C. & some guy asked me if I was who I was & he didn't recognize me but he said I had the same voice that  I always did.  He was a kid on the program years before.  He didn't throw anything at me. :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 03:20:00 PM

the above post was me.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 13, 2005, 03:46:00 PM

When I saw Suzie there it was christmas of 1981. She wanted to buy an album for someone for christmas and said the person liked Disco but that she "didn't know anything about that shit".

She was polite but really didn't want to talk to me much whatwith me being an ex seedling and not on the "approved list"  so to speak.  This was after my incident with Art as well, but she wasn't by the pool and I am not sure they all knew who I was when it happened.

As I remember it she was alone...but as we can see I can't even remember where the hell the mall was!

Hey, were you there when Art ran for congress? I remember all the seedlings standing on 441 and sr84 with ARt Barker for congress signs. Id rather not say what we would yell out when we went by.

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 03:56:00 PM

Oh ...so that was you ::bigsmilebounce::

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 03:58:00 PM

I was trying to figure which finger that was on the guy driving by on the motorcycle. :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 04:06:00 PM

Trust me Susie never went by any lists.  If she wanted to talk to you she would have.  Maybe she heard you drive by 441 or 84 durring the campaign. :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 13, 2005, 04:39:00 PM

There was only one other seedling employed by bagelnosh while I was there...and I'm wracking my brain for his name. No luck so far. Grant T. never worked there as far as I know. I assume that you know he owns (or at least owned) one or more subway sandwich shops around albany. I walked in one day and was surprised to see his name listed as owner. Seems like he was one of the guys that worked at mother butler's...but not sure. Thanks for bringing us ex ft lauderdalians up to speed on the changes there.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 13, 2005, 04:47:00 PM

Was It a guy that went to Vanderbilt Univ or a guy Jim with a Fiat?  Maybe?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 10:45:00 AM

Marshall, what was your oldcomer's first name?  The one who moved with you to GA and then on to NY?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 10:45:00 AM

Marshall, what was your oldcomer's first name?  The one who moved with you to GA and then on to NY?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 14, 2005, 11:47:00 AM

Bagelnosh employee. There may have been other seedlings that worked there before me, but only one was there when I started. The guy's name finally popped into mind. Since his last name is so....unusual...I'll give that. The guy's name was Horney. When I quit, I referred another seedling and they hired him. He was a tall, blonde quiet man...don't remember the name...yet.

Oldcomer. His first name was Don. From miami (technically hialeah). Lost touch with him in the mid 80's. Last I talked with him, he was happily married and working at a tofu factory in n.y. state.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 12:52:00 PM

Maybe, Alex?

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 01:24:00 PM

I think maybe Horey. :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: GregFL on January 14, 2005, 01:44:00 PM

I remember the bagel nosh now. A bagel with lox was about six bucks back then which was a huge amount of money. The place was always crowded and off of 441.

Yep, alzheimers be gone!

 :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 02:01:00 PM

Ahh.  lox cream cheese alittle onion and tomatoe on a poppy seed bagel...it just doesn't get much better than that.  Although I am kinda into smoked white fish on bagels now.  for a goyem I appreciate jewish food. :grin: [ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-01-14 11:02 ]

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: marshall on January 14, 2005, 04:46:00 PM

:lol: No. It really was Horney, not Horey. I knew him pretty well...(despite forgetting his name) we worked together for several months & he taught me to make omelettes at bagelnosh. I used to wonder what sort of abuse his name must have caused him to receive in high school. Maybe the seed made him change it to Horey after I left though. "Get your name out of the gutter!"

Yeah. I remember Alex too. It wasn't him though.

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Ft. Lauderdale on January 14, 2005, 04:55:00 PM

I never knew anyone by the name of horney.  But hell I'm 50.  I can't remember everything.   Horney? :grin:

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2005, 09:07:00 PM

back to page three and four of this thread http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm (http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm)

Title: to Anon with Law Degree
Post by: Antigen on February 09, 2005, 09:53:00 PM

Quote

On 2005-02-09 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

" back to page three and four of this thread http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm (http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm) "

Yeah, reminds me of the Northwood papers. Is that the right name? It was an official proposal to frame Castro for taking down some planes and so create an excuse for war. Never happened. Don't know if it has been attempted. But we know by this that the intent is there.

Pretty fucking scary, once you consider how completely out of touch w/ reality some of these people are.

I hold it to be the inalienable right of anybody to go to hell in his own way.
--Robert Frost, American poet