I Believe in Father Christmas

[Tony Stark]

Anybody ever heard that song by Emerson, Lake and Palmer? It's a great song. You can find it on the "Return of The Manticore" box set. I just want to clear up some of the misconceptions about "Santa Claus" and the "Egyptian" end of year market sales. Of course, the German xmas tree too. One thing I know It's a pagan holiday that's been around for the Scandanavians for a long time. There was a "Saint Nickolas", but that's not "Santa Claus" If you really want to screw up your kids head teach him or her presents, and Santa Claus and The Pagan season in this country is formally called "Yule". It's a Wiccan holiday. Should you celebrate xmas? I guess. I'd much rather have a good meal and be with loved ones than be showered by presents and play the "game" of being thoughtful for one season. Of course the winter does deserve much prayer in the days to come. It is a good thing to celebrate Christ everyday of my life. Does anybody know what I am talking about? How commercialized xmas is? Look at the toys, and the mass media celebrations during xmas. I believe the homeless should have a seat at my xmas feast table. Not just my loved ones.I've spent one xmas at the Salvation Army one year. I was homeless. I ate good. I even came back at lunch time for turkey soup that was superb. If you see Santa Claus ringing the bell outside your mall or wal-mart for the Salvation Army, do them a favor..........give all you can. It goes a long way towards a lot of people. People who are cast out and have no home. Anybody want to run with some of these points?  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

Who would believe that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug free America?


--Milton Friedman,  winner of 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize for economic science

[Anonymous]

Something to consider re: Salvation Army and Target, this holiday season.

The Salvation Army has been publicly discriminating against gays.  This week I wrote Target a letter of  support in telling the S.A. to get lost until they apologize.  Read the "voucher".
 
http://www.esoterically.net/log/archives/002333.html
 
AND Target has banned the Salvation Army'
 
Target Stores boot Salvation Army bell ringers off
premises Target stores nationwide have banned the
Salvation Army's red kettle campaign. They have told The Salvation Army's bell ringers, "You're no longer welcome here."  Target spokesperson Jennifer Hanson said that allowing the Salvation Army to collect funds as a mission of hope for the hungry, the homebound, and the helpless would violate their 'no solicitation' policy.

Target's new policy is opposite of  Wal-Mart, J.C.
Penney's, and Big Lots. They believe the Salvation
Army serves a critical need by offering kindness to families in need.  

"Last year, bell ringers raised about $8.8 million
nationally outside Target stores," Major George
Hood, Community Relations Secretary for the
Salvation Army U.S.A.  "We're going to lose 112 days of food service for the hungry because of [Target's] decision," Russ Russell, Salvation Army executive director for development told The Detroit News. Because of Target's decision 6,000 people, including children, will be forced to go elsewhere to find help.

Please take this action:
 
Tell Target that you will be doing your Christmas
shopping elsewhere this year unless they change
their policy:
 
1. Call Target customer service toll-free at
1-800-440-0680, option 2, then option 2 at the next prompt.

2. Call your local Target store and speak with the
manager. You can find the number in your local phone book, or through their Online Store Locator.

3. Here is additional contact information for
Target:
 
Target Stores
Chairman Robert J. Ulrich
1000 Nicollet Mall
Minneapolis, MN 55403
(12) 304-6073
Fax: 612-696-3731
Email: Guest.Relations@target.com

4. Finally, please forward this to your family and
friends.

[BuzzKill]

I recall the song very well.
I believe in father Christmas; I believe in the Israelite -
Hallelujah, Noel -
Be it Heaven or Hell -
The Christmas we get, we deserve.

Don't know that I agree with this  - but I too believe in the Israelite.

Christmas and the traditions we have in the celebration of it, are as you suggest, controversial and much debated in the Christian community.

The origins are in fact Pagan; just as are many of the Easter traditions. I personally believe this combining of pagan practice and holidays with Christian Holy days is a result of Charlemagne's desire to have his empire be a Christian one. It was in fact entirely pagan. In my opinion, to help encourage the acceptance of Christianity, many of the Holy days were celebrated at the times the Pagans were accustomed to having celebrations. Also, as long held pagan traditions were not going to be set aside with ease; they were incorporated into the Christian celebrations - Thus we have Christmas trees; and celebrate the Messiah's birth in the winter, instead of the Spring - when it probably, actually took place.
Also, in my opinion, this is where and how the notion of Virgin worship and prayer to saints got its start.
Being a good protestant, I believe this to be idol worship and believe this is something that should never take place. I know the Catholic arguments well; and I disagree. I think once the church became a political entity (with the conversion of Charlemagne) it became corrupt. I believe many false teachings were brought into the church as a result. I think the adoration/whorship of Mary was the result of the church wanting to placate the pagans. I think it was like: You needn't give up the worship of the goddess; you see, we have the mother of God - worship her. I feel the notion one can pray to saints is a result of the same sort of adulteration/corruption of the Faith. It is a false teaching, began by false teachers, in an attempt to give people what they want, instead of what they need. Nothing in scripture supports this practice, and in fact much that is there, condemns it.
Back to Christmas -
Yes, the traditions are of Pagan origin. But they are not now, what they were. They are born again, one might say. :wink:
I do think the holiday is far less Christian than it once was. Certainly many who are not at all Christian celebrate it. And certainly, the Christians who do, often forget the reason for the season. Still, if we as Christians do make an attempt to recall and celebrate the humble birth of the Christ our Lord; I think this is a good thing. Weather or not we put up a tree; or shop till we drop.

[Tony Stark]

Thank you so much for putting into words what I could only garble out. That is the truth. I saw a movie all about Easter Island and it was about an egg and about idolotry. nNot Christianity at all. Still the feast of Passover by the Jews is celebrated then. The crusifixion of Christ is observed by the Christians also. Thanx.

May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin

[Anonymous]

It's the truth sysadmin. Isis was ousted in the Egyptian mythology.The Roman Catholic church then replaced the goddess with the virgin Mary, just to fit humanity and their sceme of things.

[Tony Stark]

This is a fact in religion sysadmin, no need saying bad things about the truth. Why even get caugh up in an Episcapal house of cards either. It was just formed to allow a Kng of England t obtain a divorce.

It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases

--Schiller (1759-1805)

[Tony Stark]

This is a fact in religion sysadmin, no need saying bad things about the truth. Why even get caugh up in an Episcapal house of cards either. It was just formed to allow a Kng of England t obtain a divorce.

The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist

[Anonymous]

And just to make market profits. What's with the German xmas tree? When was that introduced, and what's that got to do with xmas?

[Tony Stark]

I don't have a fucking clue? Could somebody else eleberate on that before I don't celebrate xmas again this year? :smokin:

The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/188301123X/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Washington

[Anonymous]

According to scripture Jesus can not to send peace. The Lord God is a God of War. Even an Islamic knows the Jew have their revelation but ignore "Their Shepard", and Christ's spirit and seek to receive the humanist, and a secular government. Not one of Mankind.

[Tony Stark]

Yeah I know....The Greeks and Israelites still even sacrifice Lambs to his day. Where is "The Prince of Peace"? Why are we at war all the time? I dunno. But Islam is some tpe of polytheism with a selected diety to be chosen as one god. One Pagan god."Allah" I'd rather die than submit to Allah, but where's Christ? :smokin:

I am not a vegetarian because I love animals;  I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.  
-- A. Whitney Brown

[BuzzKill]

I don't know about the present day Greeks - but the Jews do not at the present time, have animal sacrifice - because they do not at this time have a temple.
And as a Christian, I would argue the final sacrifice for all man kind was the crucifixion, when the Lamb of God was slain.
(see Isaiah 53; Psalm 22)
Yeshua Ha  Meshiach is the Prince of Peace. There will be Peace on Earth when He returns.
(see Isaiah 11)
There is a Peace that passes understanding available to His own even now.
Quote:
A big change happened in my life. As an Israeli, I had seen how my uncles and friends died in the army. Before I knew Y?shua as my Messiah, no Arab could stand next to me without my thinking about doing him harm. But when the time came for me to get baptized, I was actually immersed with a Palestinian who became my friend. I know?pretty amazing, huh? Because of Y?shua, the spikes on this tsabar are gone.
http://www.levitt.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultim ... 4;t=000114
Quote:
Jesus transforms people's lives. Because he provides atonement for sin and reconciliation with God, Jesus brings peace, joy, and purpose into people's lives. Apart from faith in him, there is no basis for true peace or direction, for as the psalmist says, "Man is estranged from the womb." That this estrangement is healed by the reconciling ministry of Jesus is the common experience of those who believe in Him.
http://www.levitt.com/ubb/ultimatebb.ph ... 4;t=000084


Why all the war and hate and strife on Earth now? Because men are in rebellion against God and are often motivated by evil.

"In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." John 16:33 :grin:

[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-12-02 12:39 ]

[Tony Stark]

Thank you for your ministry but, Israel is establishing borders right now. Just like in the book of "Malachi", and the sacrificial lamb I am seeking is the Man-child that was devoured by a dragon and was caught up unto God and His throne and will rule the nations with a Rod of Iron and will make "All things New.I'm talking about the marriage supper of the Lamb. I'm not protestant or Catholic, but I've understanding from my tribulations and there is the birth of Christ that mystifies me. If the anti-Christ
who according to the last book is named "Mark" is on the planet then when will we all see our new redeemer. Check out the book of Issiah over the scriptuure concerning the virgin birth. There is also another King in that passage who we're not even allowed to know about. The son of Man. It's all in scripture, but there are no truths to the media and I consider it all freedom propaganda that gives you nothing but lust for freedom, if you look to the churches they are not houses of worship. I worship God within myself. Please share more. I am interested. My body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit and I am a born-again maturing Christian like yourself. I just don't trust American churches. Or CEO Hit men who do things, and hide behind religion. We are saved by grace, but when we do something wrong and we repent. Often one will not fall for the same in again. Love covers a multitude of sins, and we are in a state of grace I believe, but People are killing in the name of a God. Jesus just came to give us a sword. Not peace. The Messiah is yet for me to be found and I don'tn know if I'll ever find HIM in my lifetime or not. It is written that we will desire nothing in HIM when we first see HIM. We're going backwards religiously and turning from the old way. I'm not saying these are the last days but watch Israel and when the temple is rebuilt there are a number of years before the prince of this world appears and it's then I will have to go back to the streets. I'm not going to take no Mark on my forehead just to do trade, or worship the guy. I'm talking about the "Babylonian Empire" Where the "son of perdition" rules from Rome, the city of seven hills. This is my dreaded fate to be beheaded, or to flee. It's going to be back to all this so called like "Ceaser worship" again. I'm an evangelical and was baptized "United Brethren" so maybe that's why I think of these things. I get my insight from CTN,and oter books and commentaries and still A man swears on a book to run a country and it says plainly in the book not to swear by anything in heaven or on earth. Why don't they just swear in Presidents like they do serviceman?

He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_12s4.html' target='_new'> James Burgh 1774

[BuzzKill]

I have to tell you, I have a little trouble following your train of thought. I do think you might want to read Revelations a little more carefully. I think you have misunderstood some things.
Couple interesting things about the letters to the churches -  they follow the trends found in church history. Also, they describe attitudes, strengths and failings found in individual Christians. Have you heard the Christian Lament "I've been living in Laodicea"?
The dragon of Revelations (Satan) does not devoir the child - but just wishes he could.
And I know it may seem odd, but the title the Son of Man, and The Son of God, refer to one and the same - Christ Jesus. I'm not sure if you are clear on that.
We are not told the name the Beast will have. We are told the number of his name. Useful info for those wise enough to figure it out. We are told all those living will be required to bear on their hand or head, the number of his name, or his mark - not that his name is Mark.
We are told the Temple will be rebuilt - and so it shall.
We are told the Beast will march into it and proclaim himself god. And so he shall.
The Jews are warned to flee to the hills when this happens - to go and not look back.(Matthew 24;15) God has promised to protect them that do.
(I believe this is the woman of Rev 12; the Jews who flee)
I am one of those who believe we will be gone when this happens (attending the wedding feast you mention) but there will be others who come to Christ after this; and they will be the Tribulation Saints.
Like you, I distrust "organized" religion - and yet we are told not to abandon the gathering together of the saints - or what you might call church.
I think the important thing is to read The Book for yourself. See for yourself what it says and do your best to live accordingly.
Its important not to let someone take you and convince you of something just quoting a verse here an there. You can developed a very twisted and incorrect theology that way. Don't read a verse at a time - read a chapter; a book at a time; and think about what it is saying in whole, and not just in part.
But you might want to slow down and read a bit more carefully.

[Tony Stark]

Indeed my nowledge of most of the Holy Bible that was once my family bible, and was stolen from us has lost my memory. I do remember that I should not even discuss any of what I read in the family bible to anyone Until Christ Jesus is raised from the dead. But fateful as my mind slips me at times because of brain damage, I was baptized as an evangelical. I guess I'll follow your advice and just get a brand new bible like my old family bible. I've never seen one in anyone else's possession like it. I know it's a sin to make a show of religion, but thank you for your discussion. I'll still stay clear of the xmas shows and the CTN false prophets and the doom-sayers, bu I do believe in the old and new testaments as read as merely prophetic. Not the loss of God in so many individuals.Syntax, I found in reading the bible was so mportant when I began my studies. Things aren't understood by intellect, but through the Holy Spirit whicj indwells us believers in Christ Jesus. I still won't be celebrating xmas this year again though. It's all way too commercialized and very contrary to what the Spirit tells me. Doesn't make me a Jew and that I should celebrate gamblng and gift giving for days. I just feel the Greek Orthodox Church websites have helped me understand more than the cults in America. Ever been to purgatory? There's a place down there that straightened my head out but good and cleansed me of venial sin. Some people think you have to go to purgatory before heaven........well there's a place down there that's a paradise and a place down there that is sheer Hell, and I'm never going to attemp suicide over the truth and the fact I had no real insight to change and repentance. I died. But I came back and was in a coma and God has shown His face unto me late one evening while I was keeping night watch over an ACLF and it wasn't what I had expected at all. My God, The Lord is not like any of us. Speaking of what the Lord has revealed to me was Himself. I just don't know why me? I'm just a seeker. I've had a lot of set-backs. I guess that's how He makes us understand. What I don't know is why I don't fit in anywhere in this country. I get along well with the chinese. I've had plenty of Chinese student keypals online and we just talk of culture. Not religion, or polotics or sex. It's much more invitations I've had to come and teach over there, than I've had to pay a toll on a bill here in the USA. I used to man the radio Tapai at night and wait for some kind of democracy to take shape in Asia. I found I could do more help by merely talking about being an American. Also, one not honored in this country at all by anyone. Even my own kinfolk. They all think I am nuts. So does the VA. and all my countryman. Thank you Buzzkill.  

The Christian God can be easily pictured as virtually the same as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, evil and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed, beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of the people who say they serve him. The are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat