Petition to close the abusive Provo Canyon School is gaining

[darkhunterhope]

On 2004-06-14 11:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2004-06-14 10:31:00, Anonymous wrote:


"CW - do you live in Utah or another state? "

Also, didn't I read somewhere that you are Mormon?"

Why does it matter if one is Mormon???

Yes, it is true that Utah has a very large Mormon population, however there are other religional beliefs in Utah. And one being Mormon means nothing. Yes, most staff in Provo, teachers at schools, clerks at stores and just about anywhere else are Mormon. Again though, that is because Utah has a very large population of Mormons. Utah was settled by Mormons, hence the BYU college and the Seagulls for the state bird, etc.. Religion does not matter when it comes to the abuse of children. It is the person, what they are doing, and putting a end to the abuse that they are issuing to so many that deserve respect and kindness. I know many Mormons, and they are really nice people, kinda scary actually, cause there are not that many people around like that anymore. And no, I am not Mormon, in fact I believe in no God at all. Only myself and the power that I hold as a indivual along life's paths to make changes. So, now that that is all cleared up. Let me ask you a question.


Are you Mormon? :lol:

[Anonymous]

Mormons have a history of looking the other way when fellow Saints screw up.  If CW is Mormon, she should be spending her time and energy enlightening the Mormon leaders about the way children are being maltreated in MORMON owned and run facilities.  Mormons are fine people, very family oriented and nothing in their religion condones nor sanctions child abuse in the name of therapy or God.  Yet, the state is a haven for abusive treatment facilities!!!  If change is to happen, it must come from the LDS leaders.  That's how things get done in Utah -- not filing reports with DHS or asking the AG to intervene.

 :wave:

[darkhunterhope]

On 2004-06-14 16:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Mormons have a history of looking the other way when fellow Saints screw up.  If CW is Mormon, she should be spending her time and energy enlightening the Mormon leaders about the way children are being maltreated in MORMON owned and run facilities.  Mormons are fine people, very family oriented and nothing in their religion condones nor sanctions child abuse in the name of therapy or God.  Yet, the state is a haven for abusive treatment facilities!!!  If change is to happen, it must come from the LDS leaders.  That's how things get done in Utah -- not filing reports with DHS or asking the AG to intervene.



 :wave:



"

So another words, Mormonism is a type of political thing for Utah. Considering that most of California is made up of Republicans and then varying religions but Utah is made up of a large amount pf Mormons and they're beliefs run into they're jobs and they blend to make the law fit around they're belief system. Which to me sounds like a lot of politics. Fine, okay, that makes sense. You want something done you gotta convince the Mormon priest etc... before anyting gets done. However, the reason why Utah has so many of these damn treatment places, if you would look at a map, Utah's geography is mainly vast mountains, valleys and deserts, the only way out is to cross the deserts for the most part, so it makes it a ideal state for these places because it makes it harder for anyone to run, that and because the nights are always so damn cold, with only the clothes on your back and being surrounded by a mountainis, valley, desert region, makes it hard for anyone to run and survive without being caught, if they have no clue where they are going, what they are doing, and how to live off of the land without injury or death. And that is that, C.W. has nothing to prove with her church and it's members, she's no reason to bring up trouble with them and make it hard on herself. It is not only utah and the majority of those in it who turn a blind eye to this, it is the world, people dont like to see things like this or admit it, whether it is happening in another country or what not. But when it is happening in your own backyard to the children of your country, hell you think it's hard to look at stuff like that before, try realizing that it is on your own turf. THAT, a lot of people really do not want to see and or admit, and it is hard to get them to turn they're blind eye to what is going on and make them see it, it is up to them, not us, we cannot make them look. We can only make the information avaliable for them and fight for what we believe in.

[cherish wisdom]

Regarding Mormons:  First of all - there are facilities in Utah that are owned by Mormons because that faith is prevalent in Utah. Just because someone is a particular faith means nothing. I've heard of children being abused in Catholic and Christian schools. The Mormon Church does not affiliate itself with any youth program or hospital. They were once affiliated with Primary Children's hospital and LDS hospital (both in SLC) but are no longer owners of those facilities.  They do not promote sending children off to residential programs - so there is no connection. None of these programs in Utah claim to be affiliated with the Mormon church.

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo

[Deborah]

***I know many Mormons, and they are really nice people, kinda scary actually, cause there are not that many people around like that anymore.

Just as there are christians who do not take the saying, "spare the rod and spoil the child" literally. BUT, Mormons do have a history of abusing women and children, as do other religions, and it would be wise to know if you are dealing with one who believes that 'abuse' is no more than godly discipline. That's the bottom line, whether it's Mormon, Catholic, Baptist, etc. etc. etc.

[cherish wisdom]

You may be thinking of the polygamists who are not part of the main stream Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  True they do abuse women and children in these polygamist cults but they are not part of the mainstream "mormon church." Those who abuse women and children are subject to disfellowship and excommunication in the LDS church. Spousal and child abuse is considered an abomination by the LDS church.  The doctrine in no way condones abuse of women or children.    

"Narcotics have been systematically scapegoated and demonized. The idea that anyone can use drugs and escape a horrible fate is an anathema to these idiots. I predict that in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus."

--William S. Burroughs

[Deborah]

CW,
You seem to be fairly knowledgable on the topic of Mormons.
Have you read this thread:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 25&forum=9

I'd be interested in your comments on the stats, etc offered there.

[Anonymous]

This really has nothing to do with the LDS church - that church has nothing to do with Provo Canyon School. Some of the staff are affiliated with the church like 50% of the people in Utah.  

Deborah - I read your posts and it appears you have a prejudice against "mormons" as you call them.  The church is not officially called the Mormon Church - it is The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No church should be dragged into this discussion. I'm sure the Baptists don't support child abuse even though many of the Christian programs - like Bethel - have been extremely abusive.  None of the programs in Utah claim any affilitation with the LDS church.

[Anonymous]

Anon, pay attention: No one is saying these programs are endorsed by the Church of Latter Day Saints.

They are however owned and run mostly by people who are members of the Church of Latter Day Saints.  

Nowhere else in the United States, are there nearly *200* programs operating in a single state which are all owned and run by Mormons, or by people of any other *religious* denomination, for that matter.

Utah is the capital of the for-profit teen help industry NOT because they are experts in the field of adolescent behavioral healthcare but because land is cheap, state oversight lax, and for a mere $300.00 or so, anybody can get a business license and call themselves a specialty school or program for troubled teens.

Digging deeper, it is no accident that in spite of a number of fatalities in wilderness therapy programs in Utah, not one Mormon has ever been held criminally accountable.  Programs have been shut down for violations resulting in death (Skyline Journey, Red Rock Ranch Academy, Summit Quest, Northstar Expeditions) but closing a program is not justice, it is damage control.

[Deborah]

No anon, I do not have prejudice toward Mormons in general. There are Mormons in my extended family. And, btw, that is how they refer to themselves. They do not say they are members of the CLS, they say they are Mormon. Guess it varies. Further, I have never stated that the CLS condones programs or abuse in programs.

I do have concerns about any person who uses their interpretation of their religion to condone abuse, passing it off as discipline. No matter which religion.

Based on the articles I posted in that thread, there appears to an overall acceptance for abusing women and children among Mormons. I didn't say that, the journalist did. Of course, it would depend on one's definition of abuse. And that seems to be a real problem in general within the industry.

One of these distant relatives was recently married. Get this. She must wear a body suit at all times unless she is showering or having sex with her husband. Pardon me if my opinion sounds prejudice, but that's just too damn weird and fits into my catagory of abuse. Definitely a double standard- hubby's not required to 'chaste' (or whatever it's called) himself.

An example of old traditions/laws, that possibly made sense hundreds of years ago, that are still intact among many religious people. Why would any woman agree to that? And what would the benefit to her be? Or to her husband? I don't know about their other customs and traditions, that's just one I happen to know about.

[darkhunterhope]

On 2004-06-15 15:39:00, cherish wisdom wrote:

"Regarding Mormons:  First of all - there are facilities in Utah that are owned by Mormons because that faith is prevalent in Utah. Just because someone is a particular faith means nothing. I've heard of children being abused in Catholic and Christian schools. The Mormon Church does not affiliate itself with any youth program or hospital. They were once affiliated with Primary Children's hospital and LDS hospital (both in SLC) but are no longer owners of those facilities.  They do not promote sending children off to residential programs - so there is no connection. None of these programs in Utah claim to be affiliated with the Mormon church.

You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!

--chongo

"

THNAK YOU C.W. :exclaim:  :exclaim:  :exclaim:

[darkhunterhope]

Ponit being, it does not matter ones religion or what not, it is the simple, basic and bottom line, that these children are being abused by adults that know better than to do this, parents will not believe the'yre children and more suffer for it, and a vast majority of America turns a blind eye to what is going on in they're own backyard across the states.

[Deborah]

***Just because someone is a particular faith means nothing. I've heard of children being abused in Catholic and Christian schools.

I agree completely with your last comment. I have to disagree with the first. I am not aware of any religion that doesn't have some teaching about how to raise children. It really boils down to how the individual interprets the teaching. I personally wouldn't turn my child over to ANY religious fanatic.

Many Southern Baptist interpret their teaching to mean it's okey dokey to beat a child, not just spank, but literally 'beat the devil out them'. I think 'Bro Roloff' was fond of slapping kids- one of the most humiliating things that can happen to a kid. Even more so if done in public.

Lichfield has stated that he does god's work in his programs. I, for one, would definitely want to know how he interprets his religious teachings and where he draws the line between 'discipline' and 'abuse' AND how he trains his staff.

Many who own programs are Mormon.
The folks who license the programs are Mormon.
Some of the most powerful political officials are Mormon. That they allow this to continue is questionable, wouldn't you say? Perhaps it has nothing to do with their religion. I don't know for sure, but remain skeptical until proven otherwise. I'm afraid that these particular Mormons are some of those who condone abuse.

That's all. Don't make more out of this than it is. I'm not singling out Mormons, just happens to be the topic of this thread. I'd be saying the same if it were about Baptist or Catholics. If you think that there aren't abusive fanatics in every religion, you are mistaken.

[Anonymous]

Well said, Deborah.

[Anonymous]

It is naive to think Mormonism is not a "way of life" in Utah. It most definitly is.