Re: a mess
Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:46 am
I couldn't deal with the cravings, personally, and am not ashamed to admit it. Cravings for me equaled relapse. Every single time. I realize that sounds just as defeatist as what is said frequently in xA, but when using was still an option (and the alternative was the rooms and PAWS....) it was the only option. I hadn't thought about the cravings mess before I saw what you wrote MFC, but until I managed to kill the cravings point blank, and oh, I did kill them, I was a chronic relapser. Horrible mess of a person.
Re: a mess
Postby btnben » Sun Jun 03, 2012 12:15 am
A blank at a time is bullshit. It creates fear. "I'm going to be OK today, but what about tomorrow". For me, a better way to look at it was direction. I had been travelling along the drinking path for a lot of years. I was far enough down it to see where the final destination was. The choice was - do I want to carry on to that destination or go somewhere else - pretty easy choice even if making it happen wasn't so easy. Once you can see a new destination you can change direction and start walking - it might be a long journey though
Re: a mess
Postby dorak nob » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:39 pm
It's pretty sucky when your realise that "just say no" is really the only answer (or it is for me), if you don't wanna do it, don't do it, it's a bit of a slap in the face when you've spent the best part of a decade being told that meetings, steps, sponsor, all that is in any way going to help... well, here goes nothing, all the best to you guys struggling through opiate withdrawal too, not nice, but I know the science and that can help when your dopamine levels have hit the floor (for what it's worth!).
hello neiko, was wondering what the science you know about dopamine levels while hitting the floor might be? It is so easy to get back into narcotics , especially
if you started at a very young age, it's like knowing the magic cure for human suffering , but the downside is the suffering you are absolutely going to deal with at some point is inevitable. I think the drugs definitely take away the capacity to feel joy. I feel for you and I know how putting a constraint like the word forever can be so overwhelming, I wont use the cliche a blank at a time , it's so overused. maybe just getting on this site and talking will help both of us , I know keeping it a big secret hasn't show any good results. and thanks mfc66 for pulling this together and your comments are very encouraging.
Re: a mess
Postby mfc66 » Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:10 pm
I think most people have many attempts to give up and then something happens that makes them see things differently. I stopped opiates over 2 decades ago after somebody I was close to died. I was young and had not seen somebody die before. That was the reason I stopped. I know that is not a great solution for anyone else but that was what happened to me and it was not what people would call a rock bottom. I was simply scared enough to change. I did not want to go the same way.
However, I did not turn my life around for many years as I switched to drinking heavily for about 12 years and ended up really sick. I was in a worse state than with the drugs and could not keep the act up any more.
It was bloody hard at first but I did not go to rehab and did not stop working. I did go to AA and threw myself into all kinds of methods to keep it together. I had many problems with AA but had a great one on one councillor and got through it. Today I'm happier and fitter than I have ever been and look forward to the future. I never have a great urge to take drugs or drink, only occasional minor ones and would not swap my life now for the old one even though I was was successful in other areas of my life while using.
It is hard, but if you can stop for a bit you have proved you can stop. If you start you know you can stop because you have done it before.Don't get an AA guilt trip but just weigh up what is best for you. Cravings are tough but they do pass given time. You have rough days and the early days can be depressing but you are fighting for the long term benefits. Try to imagine yourself feeling different in the future and imagine what would be better in your life If you manage to change.
Try to imagine yourself in 5 years time as if you have not been using and think where you could be if you carry on. I found looking at those two vastly different images to be really helpful for me.Good luck!
Re: a mess
Postby Avo » Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 am
There isn't a rule or even a preference (as far as I'm concerned) about whether people involved in this forum or the cause stay abstinent. As many have noted, some people that leave AA find that they can (or eventually can) moderate their drinking or using.
One of my very many pet peevs about the program is that it generates the thought that drinking is evil. By way of my working the steps as well as the assignments in a 12 step treatment facility, I developed a pattern of remembering my life as one big bad mess of drugging. For a while I lost a lot of fond memories. The truth is that I had a lot of fun during most of my years of partying
but later in life it changed for me and I suffered from it. It began effecting areas of my life negatively. That made it not worth it anymore.
Now I'm getting all that back and it's nice! I don't have this sick feeling that I wasted all of my life to partying and I don't remember only the bad times. I remember the good times too and allow myself to smile laugh or laugh about them. For me this is the adult and honest approach. It also doesn't make me feel like shit, that I was just a bad girl all those years and doing bad things.
Sorry for the ramble and getting a little off topic there. I pretty much support the choices that other individuals make, even though it might not be my choice.
Re: a mess
Postby btnben » Wed May 30, 2012 11:14 pm
Hi byegood
Admitting you're beat and looking for a solution sounds pretty responsible behaviour to me. Or do you want to beat yourself up some more?
I know I did.
The last time I quit was horrendous. It took 3 months from first try to actually quitting. I tried everything I could on my own - my god, I'd done it enough times in the past, but nothing worked. In the end I had to go to my doctor - there was simply no other choice. I'm in the UK and things are a bit different as far as rehab etc is concerned. My Dr put me on a 5 day course of valium which, if effect, knocked me out. At the end of 5 day, I still felt like shit, but the cravings were manageable. It took me 5 weeks before I was truly normal physically. I spent weeks having to check on where arms and legs were going - I just couldn't trust them on their own
It is possible to stop - there's a few people on here who have done it. For many years it was like a game for me - stop, feel bad for a few days etc. The last time wasn't a game at all. I had to take it seriously - the option wasn't particularly inviting.
You can do it. Keep chatting on here about whatever you want. Anyone know anything about naltraxone? That may be an answer.
Re: a mess
Postby mfc66 » Thu May 31, 2012 12:08 am
I found that I actually stopped when I went to AA but I feel that was because i felt making that step to go there was so awful that I realised the mess my life had become. I dont think the steps or any of that stuff helped but having somewhere to go where people were not drinking and were having the same struggles did help. It may be worth another try if that is what helped in the past and you dont have to get a sponsor or get involved with any god stuff or whatever, just talk to a few people who seem alright and when things are more stable you could pack it in and get on with things.
i did read the trimpy stuff and I found it useful. I think regrding as an adiction as something to fight was good for me as I became determined to beat it and win.
Re: a mess
Postby Avo » Thu May 31, 2012 5:00 am
All of these posts have gotten me to remembering when I quit. All I know about booze is that you should see a doctor because of the dt's. Others in the forum probably know better.
About opiates, rehab is safe from using because they lock you up and you normally can't get anything. That's why it was always so easy for me to stay clean during treatment. It's outside that it becomes difficult.
I withdrew myself at home only once on purpose. The other times were only when I couldn't get any more, and I don't think that counts for this discussion. When I quit the first time noone in my family knew, so I told my husband and kids that I had the flu. For some reason I can hack that easier than the staying clean for the first 6 months following. This is because I knew the physical part would only last about 6 days, with the two middle ones being the worst. I wore a real warm bathrobe because the chills were awful but I could quickly take it off when I got the sweats. I stayed in bed with a pot (and some pot) and my husband was with me most of time. This was a big help for me emotionally because I really need some love and comfort for the anxiety...The other detoxes were in the hospital and they went smoother for me because of the meds. I slept through most of it and they were also giving me a bunch of seroquel and lyrica which made me feel drowzie and zombie like even when I wasn't sleeping. They have a 5 day rule here (that's the longest they can keep you without your consent or a court order) so that is great. I can go in and sign a 5-day which is about all I need and they then have to let me go. The worst was they made me go to AA meetings or I lost my visiting privelges. I got really angry about that but it probably actually helped me get my mind off of my physical part! If you are willing to do a hospital detox that is what I would suggest. I'd make sure first that there were no small print about treatment or making you go to meetings. Also, see how long you would have to stay and if it suits you. This doesn't mean you have to go to rehab, btw..... They have online smart meetings (as I'm sure you know) and you can also check out rational recovery. And yes, I believe it was Ironic (or perse) that mentioned talking here. If you come online and mention that you want to chat at a certain time, I'm fairly certain someone will be around so that you would at least have someone to talk to
I'd also be able to chat, just send me a message and I'll meet you in the chat room. Just having someone to listen might help. My best to both of you
Re: a mess
Postby btnben » Thu May 31, 2012 4:50 pm
Every journey starts with the first step and taking that first step is half of the journey. You're on your way. Hang in there.
Top
Re: a mess
Postby dorak nob » Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:13 am
i went through a medical detox, since it was a state agency their was no talk of AA , just a recommendation to go to rehab . It was a lockdown faculty which I wasn't used to and kind of freaked me out. The people in charge were pretty cool except the one psychiatrist she asked if I believed in God which I thought was odd, then she laughed at me and said your never gonna get any more pain pills in this town again. You say that to an addict it's like throwing a bone. Anyway the medical part made it very comfortable they knew what they were doing actually got to sleep. I don't think I would go back because I didn't realize once your in the system you are a classified drug abuser. If I had know that I would have detoxed at home.
dorak nob
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 5:09 pm
Top
Re: a mess
Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:12 am
dorak nob wrote:so PIE how did you manage to kill those cravings point blank? sounds like you really kicked some cravings ass
Well, the problem with my method is that it involved being tortured by more than a few people....lol....I don't really recommend it. I'm sure it could be done without the agonies I went through, though. I ended up so traumatized after rehab by a series of unfortunate events that I had to fight. I was also IN fight or flight. It's a long story that involves me being id thefted/bank card thefted by a few others "in recovery" of every last shred of money we had. Oddly enough, I had bought into the whole "addict identity" and discarded my own. Then I was around the worst case scenario-types, and I was so outraged at almost losing my home, I'd been raped, discarded, disinherited, etc. The whole 9. It was very extreme, though it only lasted a few months.
What I did involved everything I'd been told not to do, actually. I let it all go, on the one hand, while on the other I worked to build myself back up. My memory was so compromised early on that I wasn't really filled with hate or vengeance, so I worked on the trauma. I started fight training. I started training in general. That made me less scared, and also worked on the anxiety. I cut out every single person who had put me in the position I was in that led me to be robbed, regardless of my fault in it. Only in xA world is someone told to "accept responsibility" for being robbed and raped. I made back everything I'd been robbed of times 30. I hired a lawyer and then filed lawsuits (civil) against those who had done the robbing (the cops could have cared less, actually). Now if they ever DO get jobs, their wages will be garnished and their money will go to me. I cut out anyone, further, who had been negative towards me. Helped the FBI investigation into the detox where I'd been (along with plenty of others, hence the investigation) abused, which resulted in them losing every last cent of government funding they had had (the FBI resulted in this, not my involvement....lol). Re-enrolled in school, dug back into research, got politically active, and more than anything, just worked on being happy.
Long story short, I stayed utterly calm and pulled off a lot of kicking ass and taking names....lol. It did teach me, however, the value of staying utterly calm. Keeping my response measured. Working on being in top form mentally and physically. Even at the beginning of this odyssey, the idea of being not in top form was repulsive to me. Well, I was blamed for everything that happened to me when not at my best. Go figure. Anyway, I let go of all emotion other than sheer joy that I was still alive combined with pure, unadulterated hate and disgust for the people who harmed me. Then I let it all go completely and started aiming for just being happy. Actually, I feel like a wretched and vengeful little bitch after writing this, if for no other reason than I now hate displays of emotionalism....lol. Longer story shorter, I was blamed so severely and punished by so many people, whether directly or not, for my addiction, that I not only decided to let my inner perfectionist and control freak take over to keep me safe, but I also did it to be beyond reproach of anyone who might want to ever blame me again. Then I found tons of great people online who completely understand what I went through, which was one of the best parts of it all!! Then I got the best revenge of all. I'm happy;) I just had some severe ass kicking to do in the process. Then I found tons of great people online who completely understand what I went through, which is the best part.
I have loosened up since this all happened, and certainly never shared with a single person until writing this what I was going through, but that's the long and the short of it. I'm sure you all can tell in that story how heretical my methods were to the traditional ones.....lol.
P.S. I understand if you guys want to move this post, I hadn't planned on writing my life story here to derail everything else being discussed. Hell, delete it if you want. I feel weird posting it, I just feel good for having written it all.
??
?
??
??
??
?
?? ??
??
??
??
?
?
?
?
PersephoneInExile
Posts: 76
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 1:03 pm
Top
Re: a mess
Postby dorak nob » Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:42 am
wow PIE that is really an amazing experience to wright about, thank you for being honest because this is gonna stick with me and others who read it for quite a while, you are a strong brave women and I'm relieved to hear you got a grip and your life has given you the joy you deserve. I'm gonna read this several times because it gives me an understanding I really need.
dorak nob
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 5:09 pm
Top
Re: a mess
Postby PersephoneInExile » Sun Jun 03, 2012 6:18 am
Well, I'm glad it helps at least a little. I have a hard time with the concept of sharing...lol....in rehab I kept just making up completely unrelated stuff to talk about when they'd pester me in group. They even made me carry around a "feelings cube" after a week because I wouldn't share. I was supposed to roll it and talk about whichever emotional state came up. That failed to get me to share as well.
My life since then has become sort of a prolonged argument against powerlessness of any kind. I guess that's my main point. I pick things to do that make me feel empowered and good about myself. I don't allow anything to drag me down. I've been down, and it wasn't terribly fun. When I alter my mind (or my CNS or both), I'm powerless in at least some capacity. So, that's just out. It's hard to crave something that would hinder my ability to get things done these days. Not just my former DOC, anything. I can't be the person I want to be on that stuff. I hope that helps, I could boil it down to just saying that I made living the way I live now such a high priority that I won't sacrifice it for anything else. That does tend to kill cravings really fast.
That said, I'm sure 12 steppers would say it was "tough love" that worked, or a really low bottom, or that I had to grow up, that I "faced my consequences", etc......all of which are true in their own ways--but not for the reasons they thought they were. No one told me that PAWS and the anxiety of that goes away, I was told again and again that I'd always feel that way, that I'd changed my brain permanently and must now be forever on heavy meds for it and in meetings. What BS! It's exactly what Neiko was saying above. Your brain does need a little time to heal. You've been essentially feeding it (if you're on opiates) a bunch of simulated neurotransmitters, it has to reboot after that (so to speak). I know of one non 12 step rehab that also tests hormone levels after detox, and usually they are SO low that supplements are recommended (and prescribed) for at least a month or two to help boost them back up. It's hard when you've kept using solely to NOT get sick and to keep functioning to finally admit that you have to be kind of sick and not at your best for a few months to get off of these things, but it's basically either doing that or going on opiate replacement therapy. But, it's not the end of the world that you have to spend a few months getting back to normal. I add that just because at the time, every time I withdrew, I thought it was just about the end of the world. And it wasn't. I just could've done without the abusive asshattery I was put through during the process, and by that I mean just the steppers, as I obviously could've done without the rest of it....lol.
Well, there's my speech of the day. Sorry I got so darned verbose all of the sudden. I just hope it helps whoever reads it.
