1974 Lauderdale

[LucyMax]

"stack jones doesn't fuck with anybody."

I'd really like to believe you, but I know better from what I've seen here in this forum. Hell, what you just wrote to none-ya is what I'm talking about. Steer your anger to where and to whom it belongs. A lot of us are in the same boat--trying to deal with all that happened to us. We came here, at least I did, looking for answers, support, some understanding maybe.

I've never been bothered by any of the delusional fantasies of yours re Barker or any of the other monsters. But when you tell another survivor to fuck off, well, IMHO, that's where you step over the line and start fucking with people.

You're fortunate that you have family members, a strong support system that know exactly what the fuck you experienced. Most of us don't. I'm asking that you try to remember that before you start fucking with people here. :peace:

[none-ya]

Stack,
I just wish you would realize that we AGREE with your feelings about the seed and barker and all the bad shit that came out of there. But why so much disdain for fellow survivors? We all got through it the best we could.

[none-ya]

stack wrote

lucymax. none-ya.

sorry your parents put you in that hell. really i am.

I don't know about lucymax, but I was court ordered. That's why when I finally escaped I still woud up going to jail.
Which believe it or not, was better than the seed. Time moved FASTER, if you can believe that.
so once again

FUCK THE SEED

FUCK ART BARKER

FUCK LYBBIE

FUCK SUZIE

FUCK JOHN UNDERWOOD

FUCK ARTHUR (?)

AND FUCK DOUG SUMMERS



LONG LIVE THE TRUE SUVIVORS!!!

[Anonymous]

stack wrote

lucymax. none-ya.

sorry your parents put you in that hell. really i am.

I don't know about lucymax, but I was court ordered. That's why when I finally escaped I still woud up going to jail.
Which believe it or not, was better than the seed. Time moved FASTER, if you can believe that.
so once again

FUCK THE SEED

FUCK ART BARKER

FUCK LYBBIE

FUCK SUZIE

FUCK JOHN UNDERWOOD

FUCK ARTHUR (?)

AND FUCK DOUG SUMMERS



LONG LIVE THE TRUE SUVIVORS!!!

John Underwood,  it has to be the same guy, he also worked at Elan in late 76/77.  Blond hair had a Puerta Rican wife, no disrespect intended,
just posting for identification purposes. Get back to me please. I know it is the same guy he was older when he got to Elan. Been around, smoked tiquana
cigars small ones. Who knows.

[none-ya]

No a jukie from New York. See old seed posts. I think he even posted here a while back.
Seems to me he had dark hair
He worked at both Ft. Lauderdale and St. Petersburg seed locations.

[Anonymous]

No a jukie from New York. See old seed posts. I think he even posted here a while back.
Seems to me he had dark hair
He worked at both Ft. Lauderdale and St. Petersburg seed locations.

Thanks,
Had a Director come to Elan of the same name, had been around awhile I think he was in his early 50's.
He was also a ex-junkie, I don't remember where he was from.

[Ursus]

From about four and a half years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11132

The Seed was an ideal, not Art Barker, not Shelly Barker, not myself or any other staff member.

Principles such as self-honesty, self-respect, brotherly love, courage, and a willingness to dedicate yourself to these convictions constituted the ideal. Be your own best friend while learning to love yourself was the intended pursuit, ...agenda if you will. The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.

This ideal remains the foundation of my life to this day, which is why, in part, I initially hesitated at the request to post at a site, (which I only learned of the night before last), that on the surface appears contrary. Nevertheless, some lingering, probably ill-advised, sense of responsibility to those who were in the program led me here today.

After a cursory journey through the postings I was appalled, but after some reflection I decided some of you might be sincerely interested in the first-hand knowledge and views of another Seed graduate, one who worked there for 6 years. Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here. You won't be interested.

First, some specific questions posed at this site. No, neither Art or anyone at The Seed in a position of responsibility, had any affiliation whatsoever with Synanon. There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants. However, as the program grew, outside monies were acquired, parental and court(s) involvement became a factor, thus rules were necessitated. The steps were a tailored version of the 12 Steps of AA. All of the signs and slogans, i.e. "You Are Not Alone," "First Things First," "Easy Does It," et al, are the same ones that are postered on the walls of AA. This is not any great mystery.

No full-time Seed staff member with any meaningful duration of service and dedication to the ideal had anything whatsoever to do with Straight. We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous! The relentlessness of parents who believed they knew how to better operate The Seed and the problems arising from their zealousness is the only reason The Seed left St. Petersburg. They got what they wanted. The perception that government reports, the Times, or grant money had any effect on Art or those of us in positions of responsibility is farcical. We thought it was a joke and could not have cared less. As stated, however, the volume of parental interference was intolerable. The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being "too soft."

Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances. I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed. If I, or anyone I was close to, even suspected physical abuse, the consequence to the perpetrator would have been severe. I read one post that stated kids were taken outside and beaten while the group sang to cover up the sound. This, like several similar posts, is 100% bullshit, and undermines the credibility this site! There are some things that no one could have or would have got away with!

Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn't changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.

What happened? (To the program and me) As the program expanded more rules and regulations, or at least the rigidity of enforcement, was necessitated to maintain control. This occurred in direct proportion to growth. It is my opinion, and mine alone, that the amount of control actually needed was far less than that perceived necessary, which was integral to the eventual downfall of The Seed. Not enough competent staff to go around was an obvious problem, but not to everyone. Good people, dedicated staff were thrown in over their heads, without adequate support, particularly in St. Pete and Cleveland. An unfortunate situation that led to many of the problems at St. Pete and, as previously stated, one that many of the St. Pete parents attempted to exploit. Art and The Seed is analogous to a parent who lives in fear of his child growing up and going out on their own. He wouldn't have it, and this was fatal to the potential of The Seed, the dream. The dream and the vision were Art's, and he deserves the appropriate credit. For the record, (as it is the subject many posts here), his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery, were irrelevant to me. Personalities were minor details in my mind when compared to what we wanted to achieve, and my respect for his initial goal was never diminished because of his behavior, nor was my respect for what he had accomplished. Nevertheless, refusal to concede that The Seed, the ideal had become bigger, and in my mind more important than Art, was akin to blasphemy, and at the core of the demise.

"Art is The Seed," was thrown at me during a confrontation with Lybbi on my final night at The Seed, in front of Art and Shelly. Prophetic, in that the program was to shrink to proportions that made this true. When my loyalty after all those years was questioned, my only response was that my loyalty was to "The Seed first, Art second." This distinction was deemed unacceptable in no uncertain terms that very night. So I left.

I realize that, by no stretch of the imagination, does this answer all of the questions nor allay any of the ill feelings, nor is it my intent to do so.

I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience. Terms like "survivors" used to portray faux heroism for enduring an ordeal, the suffering experienced for having to eat peanut butter and jelly and sit in hard chairs, sleeping in uncomfortable conditions, comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance. This isn't just your problem, it seems to be a common and acceptable malady in today's America. When one of you volunteers to live on the streets of Sao Paolo or Calcutta for a month, actually spends time in a North Korean prison, takes up residence in the bush of the west Congo, et al, then perhaps you may be qualified to speak about survival.

Love, willingness, faith and acceptance, mixed with some gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me. Those who got it and wanted to learn, did.

Those who didn't, evidently, are at this web site.

Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard. At least I don't think the First Amendment has been incorporated into the Patriot Act yet, hold on let me check today's paper....

[Anonymous]

From about four and a half years ago:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=11132

The Seed was an ideal, not Art Barker, not Shelly Barker, not myself or any other staff member.

Principles such as self-honesty, self-respect, brotherly love, courage, and a willingness to dedicate yourself to these convictions constituted the ideal. Be your own best friend while learning to love yourself was the intended pursuit, ...agenda if you will. The inability (or unwillingness) to separate personalities and methodology from what The Seed offered was never a problem for me, I was lucky I guess. I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth.

This ideal remains the foundation of my life to this day, which is why, in part, I initially hesitated at the request to post at a site, (which I only learned of the night before last), that on the surface appears contrary. Nevertheless, some lingering, probably ill-advised, sense of responsibility to those who were in the program led me here today.

After a cursory journey through the postings I was appalled, but after some reflection I decided some of you might be sincerely interested in the first-hand knowledge and views of another Seed graduate, one who worked there for 6 years. Those who use this site solely to spout venom for its own sake, and thrive on the venom of others, probably should stop here. You won't be interested.

First, some specific questions posed at this site. No, neither Art or anyone at The Seed in a position of responsibility, had any affiliation whatsoever with Synanon. There was a rehab in Wilton Manors, Spectrum House, that was loosely modeled after Synanon. The program was inspired by Alcoholics Anonymous, modified by Art, (with the help and suggestions of others such as Dave R., [who did have a degree in psychology], his wife and others whose names allude me), to better fit the drug culture. Initially it was informal rap sessions with a dozen or so participants. However, as the program grew, outside monies were acquired, parental and court(s) involvement became a factor, thus rules were necessitated. The steps were a tailored version of the 12 Steps of AA. All of the signs and slogans, i.e. "You Are Not Alone," "First Things First," "Easy Does It," et al, are the same ones that are postered on the walls of AA. This is not any great mystery.

No full-time Seed staff member with any meaningful duration of service and dedication to the ideal had anything whatsoever to do with Straight. We thought it was conceived and based in conceit, ...we thought it was dangerous! The relentlessness of parents who believed they knew how to better operate The Seed and the problems arising from their zealousness is the only reason The Seed left St. Petersburg. They got what they wanted. The perception that government reports, the Times, or grant money had any effect on Art or those of us in positions of responsibility is farcical. We thought it was a joke and could not have cared less. As stated, however, the volume of parental interference was intolerable. The irony here, of course, is that many of your postings suggest and allege excessive fervor, while personally we were accused on a regular basis, by parents, of being "too soft."

Which brings me to allegations of physical abuse posted at this site. This was never acceptable or tolerated under any circumstances. I am not omnipotent, nor was anyone I worked with. Despite popular belief, we did not know everything that occurred away from The Seed. If I, or anyone I was close to, even suspected physical abuse, the consequence to the perpetrator would have been severe. I read one post that stated kids were taken outside and beaten while the group sang to cover up the sound. This, like several similar posts, is 100% bullshit, and undermines the credibility this site! There are some things that no one could have or would have got away with!

Personally, I had no problem coming down on those whose disruptive personalities were defined by arrogance, self-centeredness, lack of respect and consideration of others. I had a very low tolerance for self-indulgent, immature, unnecessary and inappropriate behavior. That hasn't changed. Stupidity always carries a consequence.

What happened? (To the program and me) As the program expanded more rules and regulations, or at least the rigidity of enforcement, was necessitated to maintain control. This occurred in direct proportion to growth. It is my opinion, and mine alone, that the amount of control actually needed was far less than that perceived necessary, which was integral to the eventual downfall of The Seed. Not enough competent staff to go around was an obvious problem, but not to everyone. Good people, dedicated staff were thrown in over their heads, without adequate support, particularly in St. Pete and Cleveland. An unfortunate situation that led to many of the problems at St. Pete and, as previously stated, one that many of the St. Pete parents attempted to exploit. Art and The Seed is analogous to a parent who lives in fear of his child growing up and going out on their own. He wouldn't have it, and this was fatal to the potential of The Seed, the dream. The dream and the vision were Art's, and he deserves the appropriate credit. For the record, (as it is the subject many posts here), his oft embarrassing showboating, sometimes bordering on buffoonery, were irrelevant to me. Personalities were minor details in my mind when compared to what we wanted to achieve, and my respect for his initial goal was never diminished because of his behavior, nor was my respect for what he had accomplished. Nevertheless, refusal to concede that The Seed, the ideal had become bigger, and in my mind more important than Art, was akin to blasphemy, and at the core of the demise.

"Art is The Seed," was thrown at me during a confrontation with Lybbi on my final night at The Seed, in front of Art and Shelly. Prophetic, in that the program was to shrink to proportions that made this true. When my loyalty after all those years was questioned, my only response was that my loyalty was to "The Seed first, Art second." This distinction was deemed unacceptable in no uncertain terms that very night. So I left.

I realize that, by no stretch of the imagination, does this answer all of the questions nor allay any of the ill feelings, nor is it my intent to do so.

I wrote earlier of my initial disdain so I will close by commenting on the characterizations used by some to relate The Seed experience. Terms like "survivors" used to portray faux heroism for enduring an ordeal, the suffering experienced for having to eat peanut butter and jelly and sit in hard chairs, sleeping in uncomfortable conditions, comparing the experience to Korean brainwashing facilities or gulags, speaks volumes about who you are, and is reflective of the spoiled, self-indulgent mind set you still carry, and your ridiculously exaggerated sense of self-importance. This isn't just your problem, it seems to be a common and acceptable malady in today's America. When one of you volunteers to live on the streets of Sao Paolo or Calcutta for a month, actually spends time in a North Korean prison, takes up residence in the bush of the west Congo, et al, then perhaps you may be qualified to speak about survival.

Love, willingness, faith and acceptance, mixed with some gratitude and humility, nurtured to fruition with unwavering, rigorous self-honesty, that hopefully lead to greater self awareness, was the order of business at The Seed to me. Those who got it and wanted to learn, did.

Those who didn't, evidently, are at this web site.

Nevertheless, I do congratulate Greg and Ginger for providing a forum that allows all opinions to be heard. At least I don't think the First Amendment has been incorporated into the Patriot Act yet, hold on let me check today's paper....

No that is not John Underwood I knew not that the other John was any more pleasing.
This is there typical irrational talk about human suffering they percieve as worse.
A generation before me and one I'm a part of, corporal punishment is ok.

[LucyMax]

"I got it from day one when I was still in the front row with the cotton in my mouth."

I'm laughing because I just had that memory flash a couple of days ago. "Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth."

And Spectrum House. Sheesh. I almost got started over when I was an oldcomer because I visited that place. I'm pretty sure that was the name of it. Some chick (another oldcomer) ratted me out when I told her I'd gone. She was staying overnight at my house. For the life of me, I can't think why she was there, or her name now.

I wish sometimes the memories would either go away or come flooding back in full force. I just remembered the two girls who carpooled from Miami to Lauderdale. Haven't thought of them in years

[none-ya]

Lucy max said

I wish sometimes the memories would either go away or come flooding back in full force.

Just have someone poke you in the back and tell youto"get out of your head!
Or maybe deny yourself bathroom privileges for 10-12 hrs.
You will start to remember.
 JINGLE BELLS ALWAYS DOES IT FOR ME
(no really, I 'll hate that song for the rest of my life)

[Ursus]

No a jukie from New York. See old seed posts. I think he even posted here a while back.
Seems to me he had dark hair
He worked at both Ft. Lauderdale and St. Petersburg seed locations.

He's also described as follows by FueLaw:

John Underwood was a senior staff member in '73-'74. I am not sure what happend after that. He was a big skinny guy from New York with blondish/brown hair. I also remember Arthur, another heavy set black guy named Robert who used to cut hair, a lady named Debbie del Bueno( or something to that effect) Penny, a heavy set black lady who was a good singer, there was a guy named Scott who was also from New York,. Back then they had facilities in Ft. Lauderdale, St. pete, Ft Pierce, and Miami, I was in Miami when they closed and merged with broward. I think they kind of rotated the staff members.[/list]

[Anonymous]

Thanks,
 Ursus I appreciate your efforts.         Danny

[none-ya]

Do any of you south Fl. vets , remember if Charlie Morgan (Morgan yacht) had a kid in the seed down there?
Possibly Charlie Jr. And that's why he donated the Building in St. Pete? Any thruth?

[I'll kick your arse]

:poison: