I personally escaped this Cult

[Anonymous]

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[TC_Saved_Me]

So, why did God save you and forsake so many others?

Does he prefer you?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10: 13)  Everyone!  

I just cried out to Him for help because I tried to leave the drugs behind so many times before, and...
"he turned to me and heard my cry.
 He lifted me out of the slimy pit,
   out of the mud and mire;
he set my feet on a rock
   and gave me a firm place to stand.
 He put a new song in my mouth" (Psalm 40: 1b-3a)

I would say that God has not forsaken anyone.  Motivated by His immeasurable love and grace, He gives everyone the opportunity to make their own decisions.  It's what we do with those opportunities that define our lives.  But I can tell you from personal experience that, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentence." (2 Peter 3:9)

[none-ya]

I never said you were an addict.(you did) I said you weren't clean. If God wanted you sober,and you still drink once in a while, then it sounds like he did a half assed job on you.

[TC_Saved_Me]

I never said you were an addict.(you did) I said you weren't clean. If God wanted you sober,and you still drink once in a while, then it sounds like he did a half assed job on you.

Can't get anything by you.   :notworthy:

[Anonymous]

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[none-ya]

I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.

[Xelebes]

It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?

I think it is wonderful that you are challenging Christian theology.  Of course it is counterproductive, though, if you only challenge these beliefs for the sake of debate.  It would be a glorious thing if you could study the Bible to prove Christian doctrine wrong.  (I know many people who study human philosophy and historical occurances to attempt to debunk the existence of an omniscent, omnipotent God.)

This is an interesting conversation.  Very deep.  I love it!

I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)

[TC_Saved_Me]

Romans 10:13 refers to the soul, not the body

I know lots of people who asked god to save them from addiction. He did for some, and not for others

Mostly, I think it is speaking of salvation - you're right - but I don't think we should put God "in a box."  He can save us from more than hellfire if we are willing to meet Him halfway.  It says in the Bible that he counts our tears, and has the very hairs of our head numbered.  He knows us and cares about us that much.  In my personal experience, I lost everything I had from a crack addiction - my wife, my job, my car (Everything!)...  I tried several times to quit, and was arrested a couple of times because of my problem.  I remember laying in bed, balling my eyes out, begging God (I never even went to church before this).  I was literally gasping for air I was crying so hard, and begging Him to help me get sober.  Did I wake up the next day without any cravings?  No.  I was actually arrested the next day, and ended up in Teen Challenge.  That's where He took my cravings from me.

Psalm 51: 17 says, "The sacrifices of God are a ??broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise."   Once my heart and my spirit were completely broken, that is when God intervened.  This is just my two cents, but I wonder if God hasn't yet saved some people who asked him for help because He knows that - deep down - those people are still not ready for fully surrender to Him..  Deep down, maybe they are not broken..??

[TC_Saved_Me]

I'd like to know if your program was catholic based. That would explain a lot. They will use your sins against you for guilt. And then absolve you with confession for control.

Teen Challenge is a non-profit, non-denominational ministry.  They are affiliated with the Assemblies of God, but they welcome anyone from any background.  

I've never seen this brought up, but I would imagine that they would discourage confession of sins to a priest.  Though it does say in the Bible that we should confess our sins to one another, and find healing in that, AG doctrine presents that you can only receive forgiveness of your sins through faith in Christ, not through a priestly confession.

[TC_Saved_Me]

I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)

You're making a point about vagueness, but it seems to me like you are being pretty vague about the vagueness!  What exactly do you find vague?

As far as the "practicing of rituals" goes, that is contrary to everything that Jesus came to teach.  He was steady rebuking the Pharisees for being ritualistic.  Sounds like you might relate a little bit with Martin Luther who fathered the reformation of the Roman Catholic church.  Luther was a monk, and used to walk up the stairs of the temple on his bare knees to receive forgiveness for his sins.  He felt that he had to somehow merit the favor and forgiveness of God by performing rituals and using Catholic relics.  That continued for a while until he truely understood Ephesians 2: 8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."  Once he understood that the mercy of God is unmerited through the death of Christ, it sparked him to challenge Roman Catholicism.  

This is the foundation of Protestantism, that the practicing of rituals cannot save us from hell.  Our rituals are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God.  None of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were good enough.  That is why Christ came to offer Himself as our sacrifice.  That if we believe in Him, we will be saved.  Then we get into the whole book of James, and understand that when we truely put our faith in a perfect Jesus Christ, it leads us to start doing things a little bit differently.  Obeying certain commandments will start to come a little more naturally.  Of course, no earthly Christians is perfect, but God will see to it that through our faith in Christ, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1: 6)

[Samara]

It all sounds like crazy talk to me. Murder = Salvation? I've read the Bible - albeit a long time ago. Went to churches and synagogues. I tried to read it again a few years ago, but frankly, hated how women were represented and the treatment of the Bible as Divine when it was written by men. Not God. I finally realized I was trying to find something that didn't exist for me in the Bible.   Also, when I look around me, at the Fundie place I work, I don't see a lot of Christians acting Christ-like. It would be cool if they did - I don't see charity as simply throwing money at organizations or volunteering at a soup kitchen a few times a year. Though those are all good, its pretty easy to do if you have a little extra time or a little extra money.  What I see in short supply is a lack of generosity in spirit.  Also how hard is it to live mostly ethically? (I prefer ethics to morality; morality is a bit more arbitrary.)

Since I stopped trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, I've been at peace. I am fine with uncertainty of afterlife. If there is a grand overbearing figure, it seems he'd understand agnosticism or atheism....  The miracle to me isn't the parting of the red sea but every oak tree or flower or ladybug or even my children growing or the fact I can enjoy five senses. Neither religion nor science will ever explain the miracle of that - so I just accept and appreciate it.  Godliness to me is just goodliness... a choice of evolving our consciousness. Becoming less self absorbed and more generous and kind.

I also cannot understand an omnipotent, separate being that would not intercede in the lives of starved, abused, and tortured children.  So the idea of a the Great Father in the Sky is a bit difficult to intake.

[Anonymous]

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[Xelebes]

I grew up with the Bible.  When I gave up on it, my life was saved so to speak.  My personal experience with the Bible and practicing the rituals did not save me from the hell.  So to say that I should use the Bible to prove Christianity wrong, I have to say that I have no faith in it saying anything all too important.  It has a few old chestnuts that have hung around with humanity since forever (The Golden Rule, the prohibition of murder, the prohibition of rape and so forth) and a lot of fanciful wishing on the part of the writers who turn to vagueness or hyperbole, in hopes that the reader or the listener (if relying on the preacher to read it for you) will feel spirited enough to go along with the traditions of the community or the powers that be.  There is nothing to prove or disprove because the hyperbole will be explained as a parable and the vagueness will be explained by supplementary flapdoodle from previous cultural iterations (in the case of English Protestantism, Wodenist beliefs, Roman beliefs and some Celtic beliefs.)

You're making a point about vagueness, but it seems to me like you are being pretty vague about the vagueness!  What exactly do you find vague?

As far as the "practicing of rituals" goes, that is contrary to everything that Jesus came to teach.  He was steady rebuking the Pharisees for being ritualistic.  Sounds like you might relate a little bit with Martin Luther who fathered the reformation of the Roman Catholic church.  Luther was a monk, and used to walk up the stairs of the temple on his bare knees to receive forgiveness for his sins.  He felt that he had to somehow merit the favor and forgiveness of God by performing rituals and using Catholic relics.  That continued for a while until he truely understood Ephesians 2: 8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."  Once he understood that the mercy of God is unmerited through the death of Christ, it sparked him to challenge Roman Catholicism.  

This is the foundation of Protestantism, that the practicing of rituals cannot save us from hell.  Our rituals are as filthy rags in the sight of a Holy God.  None of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant were good enough.  That is why Christ came to offer Himself as our sacrifice.  That if we believe in Him, we will be saved.  Then we get into the whole book of James, and understand that when we truely put our faith in a perfect Jesus Christ, it leads us to start doing things a little bit differently.  Obeying certain commandments will start to come a little more naturally.  Of course, no earthly Christians is perfect, but God will see to it that through our faith in Christ, "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." (Philippians 1: 6)

I would say the vagueness is appropriately summarised by the entire corpus of theology.

[TC_Saved_Me]

That's an extremely well thought out reply Samara.  I can respect that you try to live a good life.  For the sake of exercising my understanding, I will try to reply to your points here.  Plus I feel inclined to in case someone happens to stumble upon these Boards one day in the future and that person has been misinformed about what most Christians believe of the Bible.

I should start by saying that I believe most Christians believe mostly the same fundamental things about scripture, but don't know how to articulate it.  I'm working on learning how to do that myself, which is the main reason for my reply here:

Murder = Salvation?

Kind of, yes.  It goes back to the Garden of Eden when Adam and Eve lived in what was a perfect world at the time (no sin at all).  When they bit into the fruit, their eyes were opened to the idea of right and wrong, and they noticed they were naked.  It says that they clothed themselves with fig leaves.  Remember?  (Genesis 1).

First point to understand about this:  when they committed this first sin, it would infect all of their offspring with sin as well (all of humanity).  Humanity also lost the ability to have direct contact with God as a result (a perfect God cannot have fellowship with an imperfect person).  This is why God commanded Moses to include a curtain in the temple to seperate the Most Holy Place (the place the God's presence dwelt) (Exodus 36-39).

Second point that I should point out is this:  the first thing God did after confronting Adam and Eve was replace their fig leaves with an animal skin.  The reason He did this is because their sin could only be forgiven through a sacrifice.  A living thing had to be sacrificed for their sin to be forgiven.

Many years later, and many animal sacrifices later, God decided it was time to offer a perfect sacrifice.  A sacrifice that was available to both Jews and Gentiles.  A sacrifice that could forgive all sins - past, present, or future.  Out of God's great love for humanity, He was tired of being seperated from us as well.  It says in one of the Old Testament prophecies that it please God to crush Him [Christ] and put this burden on Him (Isaiah 53: 10).  It pleased God because He knew it would reunite Him with us!  He also knew that it was necessary to kill Jesus to raise Jesus from the dead, and to heaven!

This is the best way I can explain why "Murder = Salvation" sort of.  I would say it like this though:  "God's Sacrifice = Man's Salvation"

I know I've already typed Way too much, so I'll respond to the rest in a second post.

[TC_Saved_Me]

the treatment of the Bible as Divine when it was written by men. Not God.

It is treated as divine for a couple of reasons:
1) The Bible has just as much archaelogical evidence to prove that it accurately depicts historical events as any History book does.
2) There are several hundred prophecies documented in the Old Testament that were fullfilled hundreds of years later (this is probably the main reason that people consider the Bible to be inspired by God - not written by God).
3) With all the evidence of the influence of God in the Bible, it says in 2 Timothy 3 that, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."

don't see a lot of Christians acting Christ-like

What I see in short supply is a lack of generosity in spirit.

I tend to agree with you here.  We are all a product of an overall selfish society.  It often seems that there is more evil running rampant in the world, and even in the church, then there is good.  I am not much of a saint myself.  I love God, and try to obey His every command, but I often do not do what would be considered honorable in the sight of God.  I would say that if you hung around me 5 years ago, and hung around me today though, you would see alot more righteous living today versus before I began to seek God.

I believe that once we believe in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross, we are justified - we are "considered" righteous in the sight of God.  Justification is instantaneous upon receiving it.  

After we go through immediate justification, God begins another process in us called sanctification.  Sanctification is when He begins to purge of of our impurity and unrighteousness.  

Justification is immediate - sanctification is a process.  They are both a result of faith in Christ.  Christians who are not acting Christ-like, are in a process of sactification.  Or they really aren't Christians and just call themselves Christians (but that not up for us to decide.)

Also how hard is it to live mostly ethically?

 I don't know about you, but I have an extremely difficult time doing this, but let me throw a thought at you, and see what you think:
Since I believe in God, I obviously believe in the devil as well.  The greatest gift to man kind is salvation and eternal life with God in heaven.  Naturally, God and his "Heavenly hosts" want us to receive this gift.  The devil does not.  Because I believe in Christ, and have recieved this gift of salvation, the devil is pissed, and wants to try and take it from me.  The devil is gonna throw everything he can at me to try and get me to turn my back on this gift.   On the other hand though, if someone hasn't receive this gift, the devil is cool with that person, and isn't as concerned about throwing temptations their way.

I think it might be harder for Christians to do what is right, in a way, because they have received this awesome gift from God, and the devil and his dominions are pissed about that.  The devil isn't pissed at the people who have not yet received that gift!  I know this is alot, but this is what I think.  

Whattaya think??