I personally escaped this Cult

[TC_Saved_Me]

the quote from your friend asserting that people who reject the program are essentially losers is irrational, illogical, and moronic.

Although I cannot speak for him, I do not believe he was saying that people who reject the program are losers.  I believe, since he is a graduate and now a staff member at a Teen Challenge, he is speaking from experience.  His personal experience has been that alot of people reject the program because they do not want to follow the rules.  Alot of those people end up very bitter, and will look for reasons and occasions to bad mouth a program that has worked for thousands of people for over fifty years.  

I understand where he is coming from.  I've seen alot of people badmouthing the same center that I went through - knowing that the center is filled with staff members who show the students alot of love - but they also exercise alot of discipline.  Wouldn't you defend something you knew was good.  Something you were passionate about?  Something that changed your life??

I don't want today's kids to be placed in programs that practice, yes, again, systemic, trenchant, and pervasive verbal and psychological abuse.

Good.  That makes two of us.

Dissention advances civilization.  Those advancements would not have occurred if the dissenters did not face opposition.  Let's get something clear before we go any further though: By definition, a dissenter is someone who goes against social norms.  On these particular Discussion Boards, you are not a dissenter.

[Ursus]

Dissention advances civilization. Those advancements would not have occurred if the dissenters did not face opposition. Let's get something clear before we go any further though: By definition, a dissenter is someone who goes against social norms. On these particular Discussion Boards, you are not a dissenter.

One could also observe that, in the Teen Challenge community, neither are you, "TC_Saved_Me."

But seriously... what does dissenting or not dissenting, and its relative merits or demerits, have to do with whether a particular treatment modality is abusive or not?

[TC_Saved_Me]

what does dissenting or not dissenting, and its relative merits or demerits, have to do with whether a particular treatment modality is abusive or not?

Absolutely nothing whatsoever.

[Samara]

What I'm saying is that your friend appears intolerant of people who dissent from his POV that TC is the Savior. Also, your post still shows a complete minimalization of TC dissenters as rule whiners. It is NOT uncommon for Programmees to drink the Kool Aid and think without this program I'd be dead. Often, these same people feel differently once the Kool Aid wears off.  I'm just not as dismissive of the opinions of people who found TC lacking in ethical boundaries. That is all. I'm not going to marginalize them as rule whiners. If God put it there to save your ass, more power to you. Sounds ridiculous to me, but whatever.

[Anonymous]

.

[TC_Saved_Me]

What I'm saying is that your friend appears intolerant of people who dissent from his POV that TC is the Savior. Also, your post still shows a complete minimalization of TC dissenters as rule whiners. It is NOT uncommon for Programmees to drink the Kool Aid and think without this program I'd be dead. Often, these same people feel differently once the Kool Aid wears off.  I'm just not as dismissive of the opinions of people who found TC lacking in ethical boundaries. That is all. I'm not going to marginalize them as rule whiners. If God put it there to save your ass, more power to you. Sounds ridiculous to me, but whatever.

I see what you're saying.  There could be a fine line between whether those who choose to leave the program are dissenters or "rule whiners."  I'm sure alot of them leave for personal convictions about the ethical boundaries of the program.

I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though.  TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.

[none-ya]

TC_Saved_Me wrote;
I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though. TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.

Spoken like a true Tim Tebow fan.

[Ursus]

I'm not sure any graduate of that program would consider TC a "Savior" though. TC is just the media that God chooses to save us.

Spoken like a true Tim Tebow fan.

I'm a bit curious, "TC_Saved_Me," about the "saving" or "Savior" component of what you just said... in light of your chosen username...?

[TC_Saved_Me]

I'm a bit curious, "TC_Saved_Me," about the "saving" or "Savior" component of what you just said... in light of your chosen username...?

I guess this should have been my username, but it was a little bit too long:   "God_Used_TC_To_Save_Me_Through_Faith_In_Jesus_Christ"

Not to be too theological, but I believe that TC saved me (from a worldly, sobriety perspective).  But TC is no "Savior" (by that I mean that TC can not save my soul from eternal damnation [hell]).

I received my salvation in TC, so it is the means at which God chose to bring me to my eternal salvation.

[none-ya]

So much emphasis on the soul. We should concentrate on mind and body, At least we can prove they exist.

[none-ya]

If you got clean you did it. If you do drugs you do them.
 Unless you hear voices in your head, telling you what to do,
 all the choices you make are your own. Explain secular sobriety. Besides, I know plenty of christians that drink. Including clergy. Me,I'm just is uncomfortable in a bar as I am in church.

[TC_Saved_Me]

If you got clean you did it. If you do drugs you do them.
 Unless you hear voices in your head, telling you what to do,
 all the choices you make are your own. Explain secular sobriety. Besides, I know plenty of christians that drink. Including clergy. Me,I'm just is uncomfortable in a bar as I am in church.

You can make all the points you want about secular sobriety and Christians that drink (even I'll have a glass of wine every now and again).

What I don't think you can do though, is tell me how I got clean.  I know how I got clean, and it wasn't by my own strength.

[none-ya]

Sounds like you don't take any credit for your successes. But it does sound like you take all the blame for your failures. You can't have it both ways. Besides if you drink wine you're not really clean.

[Samara]

Yeah, that's a real road block for me in terms of buying the Christian perspective of "spirituality." All credit goes to God; all blame goes to people. Of course in secular programs it is all credit goes to Program.  The Program is God.

It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?

The free will argument is BS. If I was a bystander to evil, than I bear culpability.

[TC_Saved_Me]

It is hard to buy God as an intervening God anyway, at the very least.  You know that saying by Epicurus, something like, "If God is willing to prevent evil, but unable, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able to prevent evil, but not willing, than he is malevolent. If he is unable and unwilling then is he God?

I think it is wonderful that you are challenging Christian theology.  Of course it is counterproductive, though, if you only challenge these beliefs for the sake of debate.  It would be a glorious thing if you could study the Bible to prove Christian doctrine wrong.  (I know many people who study human philosophy and historical occurances to attempt to debunk the existence of an omniscent, omnipotent God.)

This is an interesting conversation.  Very deep.  I love it!

But it does sound like you take all the blame for your failures. You can't have it both ways. Besides if you drink wine you're not really clean.

There was a day that I carried alot of bitterness about the way that my parents raised me, but that didn't get me anywhere.  Like you said, I make my own choices: I chose drugs, I chose to receive Christ into my life to free me from my addiction.  

Whether you think I'm not really clean or not because I choose to drink a glass of wine once in a while is a matter of opinion.  I'm sure there are other people who wouldn't label me an addict because of that.