What is the economy anyway ??

[starry-eyed pirate]

Yeah, and what I'm starting to think through now is that maybe it's not so much the idea of people having jobs that is the problem, because surely shit's gotta get done but the way the job becomes the person's very identity and takes over their lives, so that they are working 40 hours a week and being exploited and taxed by the federal government.  And when you meet someone for the first time, one of the first things they usually want to know about you is how you make money.  Perhaps such a question might indicate that the person asking seeks to classify the other as a commodity and not as a person.

I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.  

And the less money we involve in our lives the better for us all.  

And let me ask a hypothetical question, if you please.  Why pay anyone to do anything, really ??

It's actually quite unnecessary and only enables injustice to occur.  If something needs done people should just work together and do it out of mutual benefit.  I'm not sitting here holding my breath waiting for the world to realize their mistake though.  I only wonder if anyone sees my point about money and the economy...

:poison:  :peace:

namaste.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.

Or maybe it's just the sold-out relief and the ego-driven happiness of the power of exploitation.  The exploited becoming the exploiters...

[Froderik]

Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.

Or maybe it's just the sold-out relief and the ego-driven happiness of the power of exploitation.  The exploited becoming the exploiters...

If there's a hell below, we're all gonna go...

[Froderik]

And when you meet someone for the first time, one of the first things they usually want to know about you is how you make money. Perhaps such a question might indicate that the person asking seeks to classify the other as a commodity and not as a person.

Aw, man! You said it. The social mores. And I personally avoid asking that question like the plague. Because I know about selling your soul to the devil for a paycheck. You're doing well if you do something you like to do for a living, and maybe get around the tax man a little bit to boot. Shit, man... I don't want to work for no goddam paycheck no more, no matter how big, and have stopped going that route (from there being perhaps less opportunity as well as from me making my own choice to do otherwise) for the time being, and hopefully for the rest of my life. But still if I don't pay income taxes I am technically breaking the law, and that (as you know damned well) is not right...but that is the way they've got it set up.

Goddammit I used to hate it when some schmuck at a social gathering would ask me that predictable question, "So, what do you do?"

"I breathe, eat, drink, shit, sleep, fuck and try to stay alive..... and yourself??"

[Paul St. John]

My time is seriously limited, so I can probably only take on a few of these today, but I will take them in order, starting here.  [/u]

[

quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life.  If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and  clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.

 

That's some statement alright.  Care to explain why?  I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do.  The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.

So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.



  What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business

What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice.  One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit.  For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.

and that where there is money, there should not be justice

We can really save me a lot of time, if you actually read what I write. You d save your time as well, if it concerns you.

 and yet somehow you are also telling me that Justice is concerned with getting the best price for goods or services,

Well, only, insofar as a person whose mentality is founded in the concept of justice, would only be concerned with these issues, rather any other arbitrary concern, such as whether or not someone is across the seas.  (nationalism)

[/u]
regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
 and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc.  Is that what you mean to convey ??  I hope not.[/quote]

[i]Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out.  As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything.  We are always finding better ways to do things.  It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do.   the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures.  No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.

But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species. [/i]


Paul[/b][/quote]

In fact, if that is the case, then you are stealing the worlds health and robbing future generations of their chance to lead a good and healthy life.

I'm sorry man.. Seriously, but you have so much to learn. It is hard to believe how little you understand about how things really work. You really should learn more. These ideas are so entirely incorrect. You aren't stealing the world's wealth.. LMAO! Quite the opposite, you are building their economies and helping them live a higher quality of life. Go to India, and ask those how we outsource to how grateful they are for the opportunity. They and their families, including extended are living longer, higher quality lives, then they ever could ve dreamed for in their youth.

Yeah, I'm learning more all the time...the American economy expands by force.  It's an imperial force.  If you can't see that in Iraq you're just not looking.  The vast majority of foreign countries host U.S military bases.  The 5th phase, over glorified Haliburton employees are there to enforce the program on the newcomers.  And domestically our corporately whored out governments policy is one of national brainwash on the youth.  I was in $tr8 Inc for 2 years.  The western market economy nurtures the culture of the ego in order to sustain itself.

What is a "culture of the ego"?

  If you understand this, then you know how hard it is to be a saint in the city.  The money cult appeals to the ego, and as always the easiest and most sure-fire way to manipulate anyone is through their ego.

That is the opposite of true.  The easiest way to manipulate someone is by subverting the ego.. That is precisely what is done in Straights and similar programs.. They break down your ego.  They try to convince you that your ego is false, so that you turn agianst it.  Look up 'ego' in the dictionary, because it is possible that you and I are going on different definitions here.
  Just because the p

eople in India are saying that they are happier then they were before the western economy stole it's way into their lives doesn't mean they aren't violating the rights of their neighbors, in order to achieve it...and when you say "building their economies"...the process you are really describing is the exploitation of the natural resources of some American slave colony, where ever they may be in the world.  You don't get something for nothing in this world.

Bro, you are fucking crazy.. I mean, really.  No one forced anything into them.  they want it.  They train for it, and give everything they got to get their positions.   But you are right about one thing.  They do not get it for nothing.  They work very, very, hard, and compete for these positions.  


Perhaps those folks in places like India and Indonesia, who are relieved to have established themselves in the western market economy are simply being pushed into it, and like some kid sitting on front row, the first week, are relieved to take the pressure off themselves when they sell out and begin to motivate and go along with the program, motivating and singing the required songs in order to be socially acceptable and attain some physical comfort.[/quote]

[i]Like I said, start learning some stuff.  You have replaced thoughts with propaganda. You mentioned being a saint in a city.  Something tells me, you do not spend much time in cities..

Paul[/i]

[Paul St. John]

So who is jumping up to join your friends in the international, no electricity, no toilet community?

Man being man will fuck up any system. Whether primitive or corporate. Utopia becomes dystopia. There will always be a minority concentration of power. There will always be threats to power.  There will always be over-reactive nimwits.

But it is wayyyyy to easy to let "The Program Matrix Theory" become the end all-be all excuse for individual shortcomings.

I respect every post I have ever read of yours.

Paul

[Froderik]

I also have this idea about making quadricycles, which would be a replacement vehicle for the modern car, with it's combustible engine.  I mean why can't we make a pedal car (like we had when we were kids, remember??) out of lightweight metal that has 2 front seats and a supply bed for groceries and supplies, etc., and a set of pedals in front of each person, on the floor, so that either person could pedal the car.  The pedals would have to have about 23 gears to get up to high speed or get up hills etc. but this would be a great adjustment, and do a lot to improve the world situation.  They would have to have very lightweight metal frames, resembling a bicycle, but being a car.  If it's cold out you might have to bundle up.  If it's raining you throw on the top.  People would be healthier and so would the whole planet.  It's only a partial solution though because it wouldn't be too good on steep hills and would have some weight limitations too, but might work very well in flat areas or for localized gettin around.  I don't know...hmm...

I like this idea, at least for shorter distances in cities... I have gotten around via bicycle for a good part of my life, so I guess naturally I am partial to an idea like this. In fact I rode eight miles today to get to places I wanted to go. Maybe it could also be equipped with a hydro-engine, like a high-powered steam engine. I read a long time ago that the Germans have invented a car that runs on water (I don't have a link, but there may be info about it somewhere.)

[starry-eyed pirate]

starry-eyed pirate wrote:
[
Paul St. John wrote:
quote="starry-eyed pirate"]Well...le's see...I don't know anyone who leads a just and moral life. If you drive a car, and import your food and other goods, like tools and clothes and furniture from halfway around the world you're not living justly.


That's some statement alright. Care to explain why? I would say that If halfway around the world goods are being produced by people willing to part with them at a better price, giving your business to them is the JUST thing to do. The person who would go this direction of trading with those across the world has a just mind, and yet at the same time, justice in the truest sense cannot be even applied to this situation, because who you choose to trade you with, and what things you choose to purchase, and do with your earned money is your business! That is justice.


So let me get this straight, cause I can't believe you really mean what you wrote here.



What you are telling me is that Justice has no place in peoples private business

What I wrote, is that justice does not pertain to whom you buy your goods from, as it is your choice. One of the primary functions of justice is to uphold and protect people's right to use and dispense of their own goods and earned wealth as they see fit. For example. I would disagree with a person who refuses to do business with others based on their ethnic background, but at the same time, no one has the right to force him/her to.

Justice is not relative.  It is an absolute and is not merely limited to the exchange of goods and services between 2 parties as they "see fit" but is also concerned with the effect of said business deal on the world as a whole.

[starry-eyed pirate]

regardless of the acidification of our oceans,
and the burning and clearing of the worlds rain forests, the degradation of air quality, or the toxification of the water table, the eradication of indigenous, sustainable cultures, and unique animal/plant species, etc. Is that what you mean to convey ?? I hope not.

Most of these things are WAY overstated by pseudo-scientists, and others who just do not know what they are talking ab out. As to the extent, to which there is some truth, progress always has issues along the way, and the only people who don t notice that are the people who do not do anything. We are always finding better ways to do things. It is very hard to be perfect all the time.. Of course, if you do absolutely nothing at all, yuo will make no mistakes, and it is very easy to critique those who do. the one specific thing I would actually like to address is about the sustainable, indigenous cultures. No one has killed them or anything, and it could be taken that way, the way you put it.

But all in all, I am not going to lie, I care more about people then about rain forests, oceans, or plant species.


Paul[/b]

[/quote]

Man you are really missin it.

[starry-eyed pirate]

The easiest way to manipulate someone is by subverting the ego..

Yeah, that's what I said...kinda.  I don't know, is subversion, manipulation ??

That is precisely what is done in Straights and similar programs.. They break down your ego. They try to convince you that your ego is false, so that you turn agianst it. Look up 'ego' in the dictionary, because it is possible that you and I are going on different definitions here.

These things are always difficult to discuss or write about...the nature of the ego and transcendence...justice...

In $tr8 and other programs the process of the brainwash begins with the destruction of the individual's social coping skills and an assault on the ego.  This is only the first part of the process.  Once your natural ego is attrophied sufficiently a new program ego is grafted on to the ol root, just like an apple tree, and you are systematically attached to the values and ideas of the program.  People end up surrendering their integrity and sense of justice because they don't recognize their own ego for what it is.  They identify themselves with it, instead of with the transcendent and so are easily manipulated and controlled by appeals to the ego.  That's how people are manipulated and exploited and made the tools of injustice every day all over the world.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Bro, you are fucking crazy.. I mean...    ... they want it. They train for it, and give everything they got to get their positions. But you are right about one thing. They do not get it for nothing. They work very, very, hard, and compete for these positions.

Yeah, you're practically making my point for me.

Like I said, start learning some stuff. You have replaced thoughts with propaganda. You mentioned being a saint in a city. Something tells me, you do not spend much time in cities..

Paul

Paul, I grew up in the cities.  I was raised in the Bay area and San Diego and Philadelphia. I grew up around all kinds of people.  These days I live in a small post-industrial town in Western PA.  I'm in the process of converting my house into a fully functioning urban homestead, but right now I still have quite a ways to go in that direction.  It's an ol rust-belt industrial town, full of ol dilapidated brick buildings and rail lines an such...

The Amish are settled in the countryside just to the north.  The surrounding country is beautiful farming country.  Occasionally, when I walk up to the corner grocery store I am delighted and amazed to see an Amish buggy with horses in my way.  

[Froderik]

In $tr8 and other programs the process of the brainwash begins with the destruction of the individual's social coping skills and an assault on the ego.  This is only the first part of the process.  Once your natural ego is attrophied sufficiently a new program ego is grafted on to the ol root, just like an apple tree, and you are systematically attached to the values and ideas of the program.  People end up surrendering their integrity and sense of justice because they don't recognize their own ego for what it is.  They identify themselves with it, instead of with the transcendent and so are easily manipulated and controlled by appeals to the ego.  That's how people are manipulated and exploited and made the tools of injustice every day all over the world.

Not much different than a lab-rat looking for cheese but he knows he must kill another rat to get to it; at what point to you give in and kill the other rat? At that point you've made a vital compromise, despite the fact you had no choice.

[starry-eyed pirate]

I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.

This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.  

...

[Froderik]

I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.

This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.  

...

..but what about WAR?!?!??!  We have to keep fighting the enemy!!!  :rofl:  :rocker:  :poison:   :roflmao:  :clown:  :deal:

Vote VERMIN SUPREME and fight tooth decay!

[Dethgurl]

I just think we could vastly improve our own circumstances if everyone could spend 20-30 hours a week supporting themselves directly and then maybe working 15-20 hours a week locally at the community science/medical center or the production warehouse, or the like, so the community could have the goods and services it required.

This sort of economic arrangement would go a long way toward easing class/racial tensions by making the society more egalitarian in general and would at the same time also do a great deal to heal the fractured state of the modern family by placing value on working together as a family unit on the homestead.  

...

..but what about WAR?!?!??!  We have to keep fighting the enemy!!!  :rofl:  :rocker:  :poison:   :roflmao:  :clown:  :deal:

Vote VERMIN SUPREME and fight tooth decay!

Imaginary enemy's are profitable.