Womanhood Not a Medical Condition

[Ursus]

Things are often so interconnected in ways that no one appreciates 'till the buggy stops running.

No one has brought up effects that hormonal cycling has on other bodily functions and physiological stasis, which do very much figure into the usually longer lifespans that women enjoy over men. It is not entirely clear how much research has been done in that arena, given the medical establishment's predilection for male-oriented issues.  

Plus, the whole concept of interrelated effects and the systemic health of the whole is not a concept that lends itself well to Western medicine's style of studies and means of measuring results.  Too many variables to analyze, the paper would take 20 years to prepare and then probably no one would be interested in the results anymore anyway.

Common sense:  you can bend Mother Nature, but you can't break her.  I would be very leery of some synthetic hormonal override that seriously alters the route of the buggy.  Overrides usually have unanticipated ripple effects, sometimes not appreciated for decades after they've been deemed "totally safe," and "a boon to Womankind."

[Oz girl]

While I agree stress is one of the reasons why women skip and i tak your point about it often happening because something is not right, i dont know how fair it is to say women outlive men because of having a period. I argue it is because
-Women are less likely to work in dangerous jobs and to go to war
-Women traditionally have been more image conscious and therefore more likely to eat healthily
-Women traditionally have been more likely to get to a doctor to catch something early when they do fall ill. This may e linked to the fact that women are more often primary carers so are more likely to be toddling off to the doctor with the kids or with an elderly fragile parent.

While the long term benefits or costs of any drug are hard to measure until everyone has been taking them for a while, I also dont think that the inconvenience and sometimes physical pain invloved can be underestimated. Without being uncouth, I would bet my house if your average man had to front up to work for 5 days with a stomach or head ache, sore chest and general feeling of grumpyness and also deal with feeling gross down there, he would be looking for a way to make it stop. Partucularly if added to this was concern & worry about soiling expensive items of clothing.

Here are some links on infant mortality rates although I am not sure if this was what you wanted a link on?
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm
http://tinyurl.com/28mlwd

[Deborah]

While I agree stress is one of the reasons why women skip and i tak your point about it often happening because something is not right, i dont know how fair it is to say women outlive men because of having a period.

I said it was reported to be 'one' reason, certainly not the only.
 

While the long term benefits or costs of any drug are hard to measure until everyone has been taking them for a while, I also dont think that the inconvenience and sometimes physical pain invloved can be underestimated.

Agreed. And the risks associated with Lybrel shouldn't be underestimated either. A person must decide if the risks outweigh the benefit.  
There are many things one can do to ease their discomfort. One that was recently effective for me was Cod liver oil.

Here are some links on infant mortality rates although I am not sure if this was what you wanted a link on?

No, I was interested in links to info on 'healthy' women who don't have menses and haven't had any type of intervention.

[Nihilanthic]

Deb, showing reasons why sickness can cause you to not have a period is not showing that lack of a period means you are sick!

In the middle ages, people thought body lice meant you were healthy and if they left you got sick... they didn't realize lice just didn't like staying on sick people.

Same thing, just in reverse. Collation is not causation, and cause and effect doesn't always go both ways.

At any rate, attaching meaning and significance in an anthropomorphic way around the "first, good-enough" evolved way to make female mammals able to be fertile is kind of foolish. You might feel all the mama earth/Gaia/hug tree stuff, and thats okay, but the "Thank goodness we have scientists to correct the errors in nature. " attitude is kind of nonsense.

First of all, NATURAL things are kind of impersonal, and don't really have anything to do with human feelings. Placental Mammals have been around a lot longer than people bitching about men-playing-god trying to "fix nature".

You might not mind your period, but plenty of people I know do and will NOT stop bitching. One FORMER friend felt like she was sitting in a puddle during her period, as ridiculous as it was... but sure, nothings wrong!

At any rate, considering (from the naturalistic point of view) we're a bunch of biochemical reactions in little bags that communicate to each other, unless there is an actual observed negative effect by skipping periods, WTF is the issue, unless you just get emotional about MEN doing something to Nature/Women?



And, if you want to go on about nature's mistakes....

Why is it so many other creatures can ovulate basically at will or from a sound stimulus?

Why can't we evolve skin that doesn't get pimples and sunburn?

Why can't we change melanin level easier?

Why do our knees (and, ironically, womens knees especially) suck so much, structurally speaking? Why do we still have a all-fours pelvis that has only been "good-enough ed" by natural selection to let us walk upright?

Thats right, ITS NOT DESIGNED BY SOME EARTH MAMA DEITY! Its what happened that was good enough to work better than the competitors within the ecosystem! Your own meanings attached to natural processes and natural things is just that, yours! There is nothing intrinsic about it! Meaning is a HUMAN concept, until we find intelligent alien lifeforms that have such concepts themselves, then it will be a concept brought upon by sapient beings, but I digress.

Sure, you might not mind it, you might enjoy it, but while you might be flushing out toxins or whatnot, a lot of people get anemic from loss of iron, such as my own sister. So... yeah!

Nature has made tons of mistakes (if you were to compare it to an intelligent design, which it most certainly IS NOT), such as blood vessels on the wrong side of your retina in mammal eyes, yet octopuses did a better job!

I agree that medical science and American society in general ignores causes and only treats or masks symptoms WAY too much (being pushed on pills by docs when I was miserable by how I was treated in my teens, for example) but this anthro atittude is really annoying.

Then again, maybe I'm just a naturalist pig?  :wink:

[nimdA]

Niles when you start riding the red tide I'll actually bother to read your post. Till then I'm probably going to listen more to what the ladies have to say about this.

[Nihilanthic]

So they can put human meanings on naturalistic things just as long as they get emotionally attached?

Hey, why not us guys do the same thing. We should all worship phallic objects in nature and circlejerk around Volcanos! Also, any sort of dangling "fruits" should be hereby sacred.

Yeah!  :lol:

[Oz girl]

No, I was interested in links to info on 'healthy' women who don't have menses and haven't had any type of intervention.

Well in fairness the drug has only been out for about a week. There needs to br some time before enough women take it before that info can become available. The potential side effects are stated pretty clearly though so i would assume most women who give this a try are aware of the potential risks. It is not for everyone but I know i would give it a try if they brought it out here

[nimdA]

What do you think the Harley represents?

[Deborah]

Deb, showing reasons why sickness can cause you to not have a period is not showing that lack of a period means you are sick!

I heard that the first time. I'm curious to know more about the 'healthy' women who don't have menses and haven't had any type of intervention. Now my nutritionist did recommend a method to me once, but I was too undisciplined to pull it off. Put your palms flat against both breasts and massage in a circular motion... for far longer than I had the patience to do. Works for the same reason breastfeeding does. You have to be consistent to. Wayyyy too much work.

At any rate, attaching meaning and significance in an anthropomorphic way around the "first, good-enough" evolved way to make female mammals able to be fertile is kind of foolish. You might feel all the mama earth/Gaia/hug tree stuff, and thats okay, but the "Thank goodness we have scientists to correct the errors in nature. " attitude is kind of nonsense.

Scientist created chemicals/plastic, not nature- and I define that not as a deity, but as we lived prior to modern conveniences/science that brought 'unnatural' toxins/poisions into our environment.
Due to these chemicals/plastics (xeno-estrogens) we are experiencing sterility and the growth of breasts in males and an increase of breast/uterine cancer in women. Xeno-estrogens don't exist in nature, they're manmade. Think those alligators in Florida naturally evolved toward feminization- infertility? Think female humans are evolving naturally toward no menses?

BTW, I sent this info to my sister who recommended a movie called "Children of Men". I haven't seen it, have you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men

I have great empathy for your sister or anyone else who deals with excessive bleeding- been there done that. That is not caused by, nor is it an error of nature, imo. Based on my own experience, it was caused by a diet full of things that don't exist in nature, putting things into the human body it can't process. It's a problem with living, not an error of nature. And, it can be remedied either with alternative care or surgery.

At any rate, considering (from the naturalistic point of view) we're a bunch of biochemical reactions in little bags that communicate to each other, unless there is an actual observed negative effect by skipping periods, WTF is the issue, unless you just get emotional about MEN doing something to Nature/Women?

Hum. I suspect you didn't read the information I posted on potential side effects of the drug. I consider that a negative, but others may not. And what I was ultimately after is evidence that there are women who are healthy, capable of reproducing, that don't have a period. Were you speaking theoretically or is there evidence?

And, if you want to go on about nature's mistakes....
Why is it so many other creatures can ovulate basically at will or from a sound stimulus?

Dunno. Will have to research that when I have time/inclination. But what's as curious to me is that female tigers who were caged (life threatened) had more frequent ovulation/menses (opportunities to reproduce).

Why can't we evolve skin that doesn't get pimples and sunburn? Why can't we change melanin level easier?

Well, I believe pimples/acne to be caused by poor diet and weak kidneys/liver. You can remedy that. As for sunburn... well if it's true that we all came from Africa, then we 'evolved' our way out of that protection by traveling around. As I've heard it, lighter skin was adapted and has more protection against frostbite than dark skin. Move to the mountains where your most recent ancestors lived.

Why do our knees (and, ironically, womens knees especially) suck so much, structurally speaking? Why do we still have a all-fours pelvis that has only been "good-enough ed" by natural selection to let us walk upright?

Dunno. I've never thought about my knees being a problem. They work quiet nicely. I can't fathom what about them 'sucks'. How would you prefer them to be? Same with my pelvis. No complaints.

Thats right, ITS NOT DESIGNED BY SOME EARTH MAMA DEITY! Its what happened that was good enough to work better than the competitors within the ecosystem! Your own meanings attached to natural processes and natural things is just that, yours! There is nothing intrinsic about it! Meaning is a HUMAN concept, until we find intelligent alien lifeforms that have such concepts themselves, then it will be a concept brought upon by sapient beings, but I digress.

Meaning? What does that have to do with the scientific "facts" I presented? Like excess estrogen increases the risk of cancer, women live longer than men in part due to menses. No one can predict what the long-term effect of ceasing menses with drugs might be.  

Nature has made tons of mistakes (if you were to compare it to an intelligent design, which it most certainly IS NOT), such as blood vessels on the wrong side of your retina in mammal eyes, yet octopuses did a better job!

I know nothing about the reference you gave. I don't know what catagory I'd put that into without more info. Nature and intelligent design are synonymous to me. How do you define intelligent design?

I agree that medical science and American society in general ignores causes and only treats or masks symptoms WAY too much (being pushed on pills by docs when I was miserable by how I was treated in my teens, for example) but this anthro atittude is really annoying.

Nope. We all have our limits. You've clearly expressed where your limit is, and your lack of patience/acceptence of my 'anthro' attitude, how ever you define that.

Then again, maybe I'm just a naturalist pig?  :wink:

oink.  :wink: