IN THE FOURTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR JUAB COUNTY, STATE OF UTAH JUSTIN BEASLEY, a minor,) et al., ) Deposition of: ) CHERYL SUDWEEKS Plaintiffs, ) VOLUME II ) vs. ) Civil No. 050600086 ) Judge Stott MARK V. SUDWEEKS, CHERYL) SUDWEEKS, THE WHITMORE ) ACADEMY, CHILANKO LODGE,) WHO AM I DISCOVERY, JOHN) DOES 1-50, ) ) Defendants. ) ) October 31, 2006 * 9:04 a.m. Location: Christensen & Jensen 50 South Main Street, Suite 1500 Salt Lake City, Utah 84144 Reporter: Susie Lauchnor, CSR, RPR Notary Public in and for the State of Utah Page 317 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: Kenneth Parkinson, Esq. 3 Ryan D. Tenney, Esq. HOWARD, LEWIS & PETERSEN 4 120 East 300 North Provo, Utah 84603 5 (801) 373-6345 6 FOR THE DEFENDANTS: Phillip S. Ferguson, Esq. 7 Ruth A. Shapiro, Esq. CHRISTENSEN & JENSEN 8 50 South Main Street, Suite 1500 Salt Lake City, Utah 84144 9 (801) 323-5000 10 ALSO PRESENT: Mark Sudweeks 11 12 -oOo- 13 I N D E X CHERYL SUDWEEKS: PAGE 14 Examination by Mr. Tenney 320 15 16 E X H I B I T S 17 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 18 30 Photo of Justin Beasley 397 19 31 Mark and Cheryl Sudweeks and the Whitmore Academy's Designation of Fact 20 Witnesses 549 21 32 E-Mail from Cheryl Sudweeks to Leah Schacherer 571 22 33 E-Mail from Cheryl Sudweeks to Joyce 23 Harris 579 24 25 Page 318 1 REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 2 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 3 1 List of Relationship Laws 405 4 2 E-mail from Joyce Harris to Lindsey Kleeberger 441 5 3 Lindsey Kleeberger's Reports 444 6 4 Photo of Kyle Cramer's Eye After Being 7 Hit by Joey Hamson 523 8 5 Reply to Joyce Harris's Letter 582 9 6 Song Written by Mark Ponte 624 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 319 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 3 CHERYL SUDWEEKS, 4 5 called as a witness, being first duly sworn, 6 was examined and testified as follows: 7 8 EXAMINATION 9 10 BY MR. TENNEY: 11 Q Good morning again, Ms. Sudweeks. You 12 know who I am at this point. 13 A I forgot. 14 Q You forgot. I'm still Ryan Tenney and I'm 15 still representing the plaintiffs in a lawsuit that 16 has been filed against you. 17 MR. FERGUSON: And he's still the enemy. 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm still the enemy. 19 A I'm trying to remember that. 20 Q Before we get into the substantive 21 questions, I asked you this before, yesterday, and 22 just to be clear for the record I have to ask it again 23 this morning. Are you on any medications this 24 morning? 25 A I took some Sudafed. Page 320 1 Q Anything else? 2 A Potassium. 3 Q Okay. We spent most of yesterday talking 4 about the general way that you ran your program. 5 Today I'm going to walk through the different 6 plaintiffs involved in this suit one by one and talk 7 about your memory of them and your knowledge of their 8 allegations. I thought we would go ahead and start 9 with the Sagers, with Jenna and Patricia Sager. 10 A Okay. 11 Q When did you first come in contact with 12 Pat Sager? 13 A I couldn't tell you the year. 14 Q Was it before her daughter Jenna was 15 enrolled in your program? 16 A I don't think so. 17 Q Do you have definitive knowledge of that? 18 When you say you don't think so, is it possible that 19 you talked to her before? 20 A I talked to a lot of people and it could 21 be possible, but I don't think so. 22 Q At the risk of being redundant, let me go 23 ahead and ask you a couple of specific questions and 24 see if this will jog your memory. Do you recall ever 25 speaking to Pat Sager over the phone prior to Jenna Page 321 1 being enrolled? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you recall ever sending Pat Sager an 4 e-mail? 5 A No. 6 Q Do you recall whether you sent Pat Sager a 7 mailer or a brochure of any kind prior to Jenna being 8 enrolled? 9 A No. 10 Q To make sure I'm clear, you don't recall 11 any conversations with Pat Sager prior to Jenna being 12 enrolled; is that right? 13 A That's right. 14 Q Do you know how much the Sagers ended up 15 paying you for Jenna's time in your program? 16 A No. 17 Q According to my understanding, the 18 Sagers -- well, the Sagers are alleging they've paid 19 you approximately $46,000. Do you dispute that 20 amount? Do you have any basis for disputing that 21 amount? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. And what is that basis? 24 A Because I don't think that's what our 25 tuition was. Page 322 1 Q Okay. What do you think your tuition was 2 at that time? 3 A Maybe 25 to 30, but I'm not -- like I told 4 you, I'm not involved with the finances. 5 Q So other than that memory, do you have any 6 other basis for disputing what amount the Sagers say 7 they paid you? 8 A Oh, I don't think we ever charged $46,000 9 during that time. 10 Q Do you remember what years Jenna Sager was 11 in your program? 12 A No. It was just -- she was one of the 13 first students when we decided to make our program 14 bigger. 15 Q So she was there in the Utah period, 16 right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you remember how it was that Jenna 19 Sager was educated while she was under your care? 20 A No. 21 Q I believe you testified yesterday that the 22 students in the Utah period were either educated at 23 Landmark High School directly or through packets that 24 were provided by Landmark High School. Did I 25 understand that right? Page 323 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Do you remember if Jenna Sager went 3 to Landmark directly or if she was educated via 4 packets? 5 A I don't remember, but I think she probably 6 was on packets. 7 Q Okay. Let me ask you a question about the 8 packets while we're there. As I understood you 9 yesterday, you testified that the students who were 10 educated via packet still received a transcript from 11 Landmark itself; is that right? 12 A No. 13 Q That's not right? For those students who 14 were educated by a packet, where did their transcripts 15 come from? 16 A If you want me to remind you, I told you 17 they got credit from Landmark for the packets that 18 they did, but the transcripts didn't come from 19 Landmark. 20 Q Where did the transcripts come from? 21 A From us. We just sent the transcripts to 22 the school from what they had done at our place. 23 Q You sent the transcripts to the school? 24 A To their schools. 25 Q To their schools back home, wherever they Page 324 1 are? 2 A On request, yes. 3 Q So who made the transcripts? That's what 4 I'm confused about. Who actually made the transcripts 5 for those packet students? 6 A They weren't signed off transcripts. They 7 were just a record from our school for her counselor. 8 I explained -- I remember explaining that to her 9 counselor. 10 Q Are you talking about Jenna Sager directly 11 or are you talking about students in general? 12 A Jenna Sager. 13 Q Let's stay in the general level as far as 14 these packets. 15 A Oh, generally? 16 Q Yeah. 17 MR. FERGUSON: The question is who 18 prepared the transcript. 19 THE WITNESS: I couldn't tell you. It 20 depended on when they were there and who was in 21 charge. 22 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) For those packet 23 students, were the transcripts prepared by somebody at 24 The Whitmore Academy or were they prepared by somebody 25 at Landmark itself? Page 325 1 A I couldn't tell you during the time Jenna 2 was there. 3 Q I'm talking in general. You said that 4 there were two types of students, those who went to 5 Landmark directly and those who were educated using 6 packets that you purchased from Landmark; is that 7 right? That's what I understand you to have said. Do 8 I understand that right? 9 A I remember telling you that during 10 different periods of time the education came from 11 different sources. I believe Jenna came from -- a lot 12 of hers came from Brigham Young. 13 Q Okay. Let's go through that again. Let 14 me refer you again to the deposition exhibit that's 15 been marked as Exhibit 26. 16 MR. FERGUSON: It's in that pile. 17 THE WITNESS: This? 18 MR. FERGUSON: Twenty-six. 19 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm referring to the 20 exhibit that's the responses from The Whitmore Academy 21 to our interrogatories. 22 A Oh, okay. 23 Q Let's go back through that, then, again 24 because I believe there's some confusion there. 25 A Okay. Page 326 1 Q If you go to page number seven, this is 2 your response to interrogatory number 12. Do you see 3 where I am? 4 A Yes. Yes. 5 Q There's a section marked "Answer"? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. Three lines down on that answer, 8 I'll just read that sentence again. It says, 9 "Whitmore states that from 2000 to 2004, students were 10 educated through the Nebo School District, Landmark 11 High School. Courses were also available through 12 Brigham Young University's independent study program." 13 Did I read that right? 14 A Yes. Yes. 15 Q Okay. That's what I'm asking about, that 16 sentence. 17 As I understood you yesterday -- and help 18 me understand what was happening here. I understood 19 you yesterday to say that all the students were 20 educated through Landmark, but that only some of them 21 went to Landmark, but others were educated via packets 22 that you purchased directly from Landmark. 23 A And from Brigham Young University. 24 Q Okay. So were some students educated from 25 Brigham Young and not from Landmark? Page 327 1 A I don't know. It depended on the 2 circumstance. 3 Q Do you recall any student who did not 4 receive any education from Landmark? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q Who was in charge of the educational 7 aspect of your program? 8 A I don't remember during her time. 9 Q I mean, was that something that you 10 generally handled or something that Mark handled? Who 11 handled that as far as the program itself goes? 12 A Staff. 13 Q Who? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q Okay. Were you ever in charge of it? 16 A At times. 17 Q When? When were those times? 18 A I don't remember. 19 Q Okay. Do you remember who was in charge 20 of it when Jenna Sager was a student? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q And so -- all right. Can you tell me -- I 23 mean, do you remember anything at all about how Jenna 24 was educated? 25 A I don't remember. That was like four Page 328 1 years ago, if I remember that. 2 Q Do you remember anything at all about how 3 Jenna received a transcript from your program? 4 A No. 5 Q Jenna has made an allegation that she was 6 verbally abused by you. I want to talk about that for 7 a minute. Did you ever call Jenna any profane names? 8 A It's not my nature, no. 9 Q Do you recall ever physically striking 10 Jenna? 11 A No. 12 Q Did you ever spit at Jenna? 13 A No. 14 Q While Jenna was a student at The Whitmore 15 Academy, do you recall ever being informed that Jenna 16 had been physically assaulted by another student? 17 A She only claimed to be assaulted by her 18 parents. 19 Q Now, my question was while Jenna was a 20 student at The Whitmore Academy, do you recall ever 21 being informed that she had been assaulted by another 22 student? 23 A No. 24 Q You were never even told that she was 25 saying that she was hit by somebody? Page 329 1 A Not to my memory. 2 Q Okay. That probably answers the next 3 question, but I'll go ahead and ask it anyway. Do you 4 recall ever seeing Jenna being physically struck by 5 another student? 6 A The only thing I do remember was Jenna 7 used to try to hit people. 8 Q Who do you recall Jenna trying to hit? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q Well, now, you just stated that you recall 11 that she used to try to hit people. What do you mean 12 by that? 13 A We had to have extra help with Jenna. 14 Q Tell me about that. What help did you 15 have to have? 16 A She had to usually be with one of the 17 staff. 18 Q Who? 19 A I don't remember, honestly. 20 Q Who was the staff at that time? 21 A I don't remember. This was -- I don't 22 even remember that, but at least four years ago. 23 Q Yeah, but you did just testify under oath 24 that she had to be with staff and so I'm trying to 25 have you help me understand what you meant by that. Page 330 1 What did you mean by that? 2 A Yes. If you want to understand what I 3 meant by that, it's like I have a grandchild that's a 4 little harder than the others. My daughter usually 5 has her husband or whoever's there help out with this 6 particular child. 7 Q Okay. In that example you were able to 8 identify who helped out. 9 A No, I am not. 10 Q So in Jenna's case who helped out? 11 A I said someone who's there. 12 Q And who was there? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Do you recall any specific incident that 15 prompted you to have to have this extra help for 16 Jenna? 17 A She was a hot -- a loose cannon. 18 Q Okay. And what do you mean by that? 19 A Her temper could fly any minute. 20 Q Give me some example of when her temper 21 flew. 22 A I couldn't give you a specific example, 23 but it was on a daily average. 24 Q What sorts of things were you talking 25 about when you say their temper flew? Page 331 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Can you give me any specifics to help me 3 understand what you're talking about? 4 A No, I can't. 5 Q Okay. Tell me all the instances that you 6 can think of where Jenna broke any of your rules. 7 A I don't remember. 8 Q So you can't give me any specifics of any 9 time where she broke one of your rules? 10 A Not to my knowledge at this time. 11 Q Can you give me any specific examples in 12 which Jenna was dishonest in any way? 13 A Yes, I can remember that. I can remember 14 a security guard at Wal-Mart had the school leave 15 because Jenna had stolen something. 16 Q Who had she stolen? 17 A Makeup. 18 Q Was she ever arrested for that? 19 A No. 20 Q Was she ever charged for it? 21 A No. 22 Q Did she have to pay Wal-Mart any money, 23 that you're aware of? 24 A No, he was very kind and asked us to 25 leave. Page 332 1 Q Who was there on that occasion? 2 A Well, we had the whole school with us, but 3 I don't remember who was there. 4 Q When you say "the whole school," are you 5 talking about all the students? 6 A Yes. 7 Q So you were on a field trip to Wal-Mart; 8 is that right? 9 A Yes. Well, it's something we do. 10 Q Which Wal-Mart was it? 11 A Provo, down by ShopKo -- or, no, it was 12 ShopKo. That's the one. It was ShopKo 13 Q Which ShopKo? 14 A Down by the diagonal. 15 Q Yeah, do you know the street name? I'm 16 terrible with street names, I need you to help me. 17 A I am too. 18 Q What was it by? 19 A Doc's Pizza. 20 Q Are you talking about the one over by The 21 Pizzeria? Do you know where The Pizzeria is? 22 A No. 23 Q So you were saying that you were at a 24 ShopKo in Provo and she stole some makeup. Did 25 anybody observe her stealing the makeup? Page 333 1 A I don't remember. Only the security 2 guard. 3 Q Did you inform her parents of that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who did you inform? 6 A Normal conversations were with her mother. 7 Q So do you remember informing her mother 8 that she had stolen from ShopKo? 9 A One of us did. 10 Q Do you remember informing her mother 11 that -- 12 A I don't remember who it was. 13 Q But do you remember doing the informing? 14 A No, I don't remember. 15 Q Okay. Do you remember if it was by phone 16 or if it was by e-mail? 17 A I don't remember, but presumably phone. 18 Q Do you remember that specifically? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you remember any other instances, other 21 than the ShopKo incident, in which Jenna was 22 dishonest? 23 A I can't recall at this time. 24 Q Do you remember if Jenna received therapy 25 while she was under your care? Page 334 1 A Yes. 2 Q And what do you remember about that? 3 A Just that Todd was her therapist. 4 Q And do you remember if she received 5 therapy on a weekly or biweekly basis? 6 A Well, that's what we did. 7 Q So is it your testimony that she did 8 receive therapy on a regular basis? 9 A No, it's not my testimony of that. I just 10 know that's what was expected. 11 Q Do you have any memory that that actually 12 occurred? 13 A I don't have any memory that it didn't 14 occur. 15 Q That wasn't my question now, was it? Do 16 you have any memory that it specifically occurred? 17 A Yes, I presumed it did. 18 Q Other than your presumptions, do you have 19 any memory that it occurred? 20 A That's the best I can come up with. 21 Q Okay. Let's talk about Justin Beasley. 22 When did you first come in contact with his mother, 23 Susan Beasley? 24 A I remember the first time I met them was 25 in the parlor at the mansion. Page 335 1 Q Was it before or after Justin had been 2 enrolled? 3 A Before. 4 Q Prior to them coming out to Utah, do you 5 recall ever having any phone contact with Susan 6 Beasley? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you recall ever having sent an e-mail 9 to Susan Beasley? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you recall ever having received an 12 e-mail from Susan Beasley? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you recall whether you sent Susan 15 Beasley a mailer or brochure via mail? 16 A What was that? 17 Q Do you recall whether you ever sent Susan 18 Beasley a mailer or a brochure, anything through the 19 mail? 20 A No. 21 Q So the parlor conversation, when did that 22 occur? 23 A I think it was summer. 24 Q How soon prior to Justin's enrollment did 25 it occur? Let me ask it that way. Page 336 1 A Same day. 2 Q So Susan came out to drop him off and you 3 talked to him beforehand; is that what you're talking 4 about? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And what do you recall about that 7 encounter? Do you recall talking about anything 8 specifically? 9 A She cried a lot. 10 Q What was she crying about, do you know? 11 A She couldn't take anymore of Justin. 12 Q And what was it that she couldn't take 13 anymore of? 14 A His lying, his manipulation, he was in 15 trouble with the law, his stealing. She had just had 16 it. 17 Q Did she tell you those things directly? 18 A She told -- there was more than just I. 19 She told a few people that were -- I think maybe all 20 the kids. 21 Q Were all the kids there for that 22 conversation? 23 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 24 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I believe most of them Page 337 1 were. 2 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Why were all the kids 3 there for that conversation? 4 A That's how we did it. 5 Q You had all the kids come for your initial 6 meeting with new students? 7 A If the situation was right. 8 Q What would make the situation right? 9 A They weren't in class or it was a Saturday 10 or they were anxious to meet him or whatever. 11 Q So you're saying that if the students were 12 not otherwise occupied, you'd bring all the students 13 together when a new student arrived? 14 A Usually at the request of a parent. 15 Q If the parent didn't request it, would you 16 do that anyway? 17 A No. 18 Q So how often -- give me a percentage, if 19 you can, from all the students who came to your 20 program from 2000 to 2006, how often did you greet a 21 new student -- 22 A I don't know. 23 Q -- with the full group? Are we talking 24 half the time? Three fourths of the time? 25 A I couldn't even tell you that. Page 338 1 Q Can you give me a ballpark at all? 2 A No. 3 Q You're saying that happened with Justin 4 Beasley; is that right? 5 A I believe. I am not sure. 6 Q Do you remember it or do you not remember 7 it? 8 A It crosses my mind, maybe. 9 Q So you maybe remember that you met with 10 them? 11 A Yeah. Yes. 12 Q So the parlor conversation we're talking 13 about, you maybe remember that or you do remember 14 that? 15 A Well, if it comes down to that, no, I 16 don't remember. 17 Q So when is the first time that you 18 actually remember talking to Susan Beasley? 19 A First time in the parlor with Justin, she 20 was crying. 21 Q So you do remember this? 22 A Yes. What I don't remember is who was 23 there. 24 Q Okay. I understand. Do you recall, 25 during that conversation, whether you talked about the Page 339 1 therapy that Justin would receive? 2 A No. She was more focused on her pain. 3 Q Let me make sure I understand that answer 4 right. Do you not recall whether you discussed it or 5 not or do you specifically recall that you -- 6 A No, I recalled. 7 Q That you did not discuss it? 8 A We talked about her. 9 Q Let me make sure I understand this right. 10 So you're saying that you did not talk about therapy 11 at that time; is that right? 12 A That's right. 13 Q Did you talk about the educational aspect 14 of the program at the time? 15 A That wasn't her big concern. 16 Q Okay. But the question was did you talk 17 about the educational aspect at that time? 18 A Probably not. 19 Q When is the first time that you ever 20 remember talking about the educational aspect of your 21 program with Susan Beasley? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Do you remember any instance in which you 24 talked about the educational aspect with Susan 25 Beasley? Page 340 1 A I'm sure we did because that's part of 2 what we do. 3 Q But do you remember any such conversation? 4 A No, I don't remember. 5 Q Do you remember any instance in which you 6 talked about the therapeutic aspect of the program 7 with Susan Beasley? 8 A I don't remember. 9 Q Do you remember ever exchanging any other 10 type of communication, e-mails, letters or anything 11 like that regarding the educational aspect? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you recall any other communications 14 regarding therapy? 15 A No -- oh, yes, I do. 16 Q Okay. Tell me about that. 17 A I remember about Christmastime she didn't 18 know whether she should just have him go live with his 19 father. She didn't know what to do. So there was a 20 woman at the mansion at that time who had worked with 21 different people on the feeling, spirit of life, and 22 she said she would be glad to help Justin if he would 23 give it a shot. 24 Q And what was this woman's name? 25 A Wendy Latham. Page 341 1 Q Was she a Nephi resident? 2 A Yes, she is. 3 Q So what happened with Wendy Latham? 4 A I think she worked with Justin once and it 5 wasn't for him. 6 Q Did you clear that with his mother first? 7 A It was requested by his mother. 8 Q His mother asked that Wendy Latham help 9 him? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How did his mother find out about Wendy 12 Latham to request her help? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Do you remember telling his mother about 15 Wendy Latham? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q To the best of your knowledge, did Wendy 18 Latham help any of your other students? 19 A She tried helping Lindsey Kleeberger about 20 the same time. 21 Q Do you recall how much Susan Beasley paid 22 you? 23 A I don't recall, but I know she had a hard 24 time ever paying her bills. 25 Q Okay. But my question was, do you recall Page 342 1 how much she paid you? 2 A No. 3 Q My understanding is that Susan Beasley is 4 alleging that she paid you approximately $20,000. Do 5 you have any basis to dispute that figure? 6 A No. 7 Q Do you recall how Justin Beasley was 8 educated? 9 A He's one of the kids who went to Landmark. 10 Q So is it your understanding that he 11 received his transcript through Landmark? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Were you ever made aware that Justin was 14 diagnosed as being bipolar when he was a child? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you recall having been informed of that 17 prior to Justin being enrolled? 18 A No. 19 Q Do you recall ever telling Susan Beasley 20 that your program was equipped to deal with bipolar 21 kids? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you recall ever telling Susan Beasley 24 that your program had several kids who had been 25 diagnosed with ADD, or attention deficit disorder? Page 343 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever tell Susan Beasley that your 3 program did not accept kids who had a criminal 4 background? 5 A No. 6 Q Let me go back to the tuition amount just 7 for a moment. You testified just a minute ago that 8 you don't have any basis to dispute Susan's 9 allegations regarding how much she paid you. What 10 document would you ordinarily look at to determine how 11 much somebody had paid you? 12 A I told you yesterday I wasn't involved 13 with finances. 14 Q Do you know if any documentation was kept 15 regarding who had paid what? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you know if any files were kept about 18 this? 19 A I'm sure they were, but I don't know of 20 them. 21 Q Okay. Let's go back to Justin. Did you 22 ever hit Justin Beasley? 23 A No. 24 Q Did you ever push him? 25 A No. Page 344 1 Q Did you ever slap him? 2 A No. 3 Q Did you ever kick him? 4 A No. 5 Q Have you ever read Justin Beasley's 6 deposition? 7 A No. 8 Q In his deposition Justin described an 9 incident in which he had broken a rule and you 10 responded by instructing him to spend a night in a 11 room with Rob Porritz and he said that Rob Porritz 12 assaulted him that night and that he told you about it 13 the next morning. Do you remember any incident like 14 this ever occurring? 15 A No. 16 Q Do you recall any incident in which you 17 punished Justin by putting him in a room with Rob 18 Porritz overnight? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you recall any incident in which Justin 21 Beasley took a stereo receiver without permission? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Tell me about that. 24 A He gave it to the carnival. 25 Q What carnival? Page 345 1 A There's a carnival right next to the arena 2 house and he came and took it and gave it away so he 3 could have rides, free rides. 4 Q Whose receiver was it? 5 A The Academy. 6 Q Who had bought it? Do you remember who 7 bought it? 8 A No. 9 Q Was it something your kids had or was it 10 something The Academy itself used? 11 A It's something we used for jump starts in 12 The Academy. 13 Q So Justin came and took it and gave it 14 away in exchange for rides; is that right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And how did you find that out? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Did somebody from the carnival tell you 19 this? 20 A No, I don't believe. 21 Q Did one of the other students come tell 22 you this story? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q Do you remember what punishment Justin 25 received for having done this? Page 346 1 A No. 2 Q Did you have a group on him as a result of 3 this? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Do you recall ever slapping him across the 6 head as a consequence? 7 A No. I don't do that. 8 Q While Justin was a student in your 9 program, were you ever made aware of any instance in 10 which he was physically assaulted by any other 11 student? 12 A No. 13 Q Do you recall any instance in which he was 14 threatened by another student? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Tell me about that. 17 A I don't remember names or dates or 18 anything, but I know the other students were always 19 frustrated with him. 20 Q My question was, do you recall any 21 incident in which he was threatened by another 22 student? 23 A Oh, no. 24 Q Do you recall any incident in which Justin 25 Beasley was physically aggressive towards another Page 347 1 student? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Tell me about that. 4 A He was mad at Leah and he jumped on her. 5 Q Did you witness this? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q What room were you in? 8 A We were upstairs in the foyer. 9 Q And who was in the room at that time? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q But you were there, Justin was there, Leah 12 was there? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And what did you observe regarding why he 15 was mad at her? 16 A He was jealous of her. 17 Q Jealous of what? 18 A He thought that she was sucking up to me. 19 Q Is that what he said? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And what did she say? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q And do you remember ever saying anything 24 to him about that? 25 A Come again? Page 348 1 Q Do you remember responding to that claim 2 that he had made? 3 A No, I don't remember. 4 Q So you said that he jumped on her; is that 5 right? 6 A Yeah. 7 Q What do you mean by that? 8 A He was just aggressive towards her. 9 Q And what does that mean? 10 A He was mad. 11 Q Okay. Well, so what did he do? 12 A He went at her. 13 Q And what does that mean? 14 A It means he was going to -- in my eyes, he 15 was going to try and hurt her. 16 Q How did you know that? 17 A I didn't know that. 18 Q Did you see him physically touch her? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q That begs the next question. I mean, did 21 you see him hit her, kick her, anything like that? 22 A I saw him go towards her, jump towards her 23 and that's all I remember. 24 Q You don't remember whether he made contact 25 after he jumped? Page 349 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Do you remember whether you had to stop 3 him, whether you jumped in between the two -- 4 A Yes, I did stop them. 5 Q So you physically jumped in between the 6 two of them? 7 A No. 8 Q No. So how did you stop them? 9 A I told them to stop. 10 Q And did he? 11 A No, he kept coming. 12 Q How far away were they at that time? 13 A Ten feet. 14 Q Eventually he stops? 15 A Yes. 16 Q But you don't recall whether he actually 17 made contact? 18 A No, he said some mean things. 19 Q What things did he say? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q But you remember that they were mean? 22 A They were mean enough to have me tell him 23 to apologize to her. 24 Q And did he? 25 A No. Page 350 1 Q And did you punish him in any way for not 2 apologizing? 3 A I told him to go to his room. 4 Q And did he? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did you make him fill out a responsibility 7 packet? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you have a discussion regarding this in 10 a group session? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Okay. We talked yesterday about two rooms 13 that sometimes are referred to as the shelf rooms. 14 And just for clarification, again, we're talking about 15 the alcove that has a shelf in it and then the room 16 right next to it where there's a bunk bed. 17 A Can you call it the Perry room? That's 18 the name of the room. 19 Q Just to make sure we're clear, which of 20 the two is the Perry room? 21 A It had a bunk bed above the other bed with 22 the ladder. That is the one I explained yesterday. 23 Q And what should we call the other one? 24 What should we call the alcove room? 25 A The laundry room. Page 351 1 Q The laundry room, okay. I've got to write 2 that down. 3 MR. FERGUSON: Or the sheet room, I think 4 we talked about yesterday. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it was the sheet room. 6 It wasn't really called much because nobody used it. 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Right. And when you said 8 the Perry room, how do you spell Perry? 9 A P-e-r-r-y. 10 Q Why was it called the Perry room? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Was it always called the Perry room? 13 A I think so. 14 Q Is that how you referred to it when you 15 were describing it -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q -- to students? Was Justin Beasley ever 18 forced to sleep in the sheet room? 19 A No. 20 Q Did he ever sleep in the sheet room? 21 A No. 22 Q Did Justin Beasley ever sleep in the Perry 23 room? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Tell me about that. Page 352 1 A When he -- I don't remember the details, 2 but he was in trouble. I believe he was running away, 3 or he had run away, one or the other. 4 Q Tell me about when he ran away. What do 5 you remember about that? 6 A Well, like I told you before, Bernardo 7 would stay behind because he didn't go to church with 8 us and he did his responsibility packet. And I don't 9 remember the staff that was there, but they were down 10 below. 11 Q "They" being who? 12 A Whoever was on staff. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And this was a long time ago too. And we 15 all went to church and Justin went to church. But 16 he's very sneaky, he went to the bathroom and he left. 17 He went to 7-Eleven and hitchhiked to the airport. 18 Q And how did you find out about that? 19 A He told us. 20 Q Who told you? 21 A Justin. 22 Q When did he tell you? 23 A After Ben that we talked about yesterday. 24 Q Ben McQuivey? 25 A Ben and Tim who worked for us went to the Page 353 1 airport and found him. 2 Q How did they know he was at the airport? 3 A The people at 7-Eleven told him that's who 4 he got a ride with, someone who was going to the 5 airport. 6 Q How did you know to go talk to the people 7 at 7-Eleven? 8 A Can't remember. 9 Q At what point did you discover that he was 10 missing? 11 A I led the music in church and I could look 12 at all the kids and Justin wasn't there. That was my 13 way of keeping track of them. 14 Q Was that during the first hour? 15 A Yes, it was about five minutes after 16 church started. 17 Q And so you're in sacrament meeting and you 18 noticed that Justin wasn't sitting with all the other 19 kids? 20 A Right. 21 Q So then at that point did you send 22 somebody out to go look for him? 23 A Immediately. 24 Q And who did you send? 25 A Ben and Tim. Page 354 1 Q And do you have any knowledge of how 2 they -- 3 A I believe Nephi went with them too. 4 Q Nephi? Who's Nephi? 5 A Another person who was on staff. 6 Q What's Nephi's last name? 7 A McQuivey. 8 Q I'm assuming he's a brother to Ben and -- 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you have any knowledge of how it was 11 that they ended up asking questions at the 7-Eleven? 12 A No, I don't, but it was kind of amazing 13 that they found him. 14 Q Okay. So they ended up finding him at the 15 airport you said, right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And how did he get from the airport back 18 to The Whitmore mansion? 19 A They brought him. 20 Q Did he come -- do you know if he came 21 willingly or if -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q And then what happened as a consequence to 24 that? 25 A He had to do a responsibility packet and I Page 355 1 believe that he slept in the Perry room. 2 Q How long did he sleep in the Perry room? 3 A But his shoes were taken away from him. 4 Q All of his shoes? 5 A Yeah. 6 Q And where did you put the shoes? 7 A In his bedroom. 8 Q So he had access to his shoes? 9 A No. 10 Q His shoes were in his bedroom, but he 11 didn't have access to them? 12 A No, he didn't know where they were. 13 Q You hid them in his bedroom? 14 A I think so. 15 Q Do you know where you hid them? 16 A No. 17 Q Who hid them? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Did you tell his mother about this? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How did you tell his mother? Did you tell 22 her over the phone? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And what was her reaction? 25 A She was mad at him. Page 356 1 Q So as a consequence you put him in the 2 sheet room. Did you pull the ladder away from the 3 bed? 4 MR. FERGUSON: The Perry room. 5 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm sorry. Thank you. 6 So you put him in the Perry room. Did you 7 pull the ladder away while he was up on the top bed? 8 A That was the purpose. 9 Q So the idea was that he couldn't get down? 10 A Unless he had permission. 11 Q And how long was he up there without a 12 ladder? 13 A Justin, probably five minutes. He jumped 14 down. 15 Q And where did he go? 16 A Out the door. 17 Q So he ran away a second time? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And where did you find him this time? 20 A At the Best Western. 21 Q Where? 22 A I believe that's the name of it. 23 Q The Best Western where? 24 A In Nephi. 25 Q And how did you know to look for him at Page 357 1 the Best Western in Nephi? 2 A Because that's where his mother made 3 reservations. 4 Q Was his mother in Utah at that time? 5 A No, but she begged to come for Christmas 6 against the therapist's wishes, who was Todd. He was 7 very frustrated with her because she did whatever she 8 wanted and she wanted to come spend the week with the 9 group. 10 Q So was she already on her way at this 11 point? Do I understand that right? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q But she already had reservations at the 14 Best Western? 15 A Yes. 16 Q So Justin went to the Best Western knowing 17 that his mother had a reservation there; is that your 18 understanding? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And so let me try and understand this 21 right. You talked to his mother and his mother told 22 you to go look at the Best Western; is that how that 23 happened? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And did he come back from the Best Page 358 1 Western, Justin? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How was he brought back? What happened to 4 get him back from the Best Western? 5 A Well, he let me in his room and he cried 6 for about an hour and he felt really bad and he said 7 he really wanted to try, so he came back. 8 Q Did he come back immediately? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did he spend the night there with his 11 mother? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Do you recall whether you had a party at 14 the Best Western before he came back? 15 A A what? 16 Q A party. Did you bring the other students 17 over to swim in the pool or anything? 18 A No, I don't recall anything like that. 19 Q Tell me all of the instances that you're 20 aware of, other than the runaways we've just talked 21 about and other than coming after Leah, tell me all 22 the other instances that you can think of where Justin 23 broke any of your rules. 24 A Well, first of all, it was very common for 25 Justin to break rules, but to recall all of them would Page 359 1 be impossible. The ones that stick out in my mind are 2 ones that affected the group in a really negative way. 3 Q And which ones were those? 4 A We were on a trip to Branson, Missouri, 5 and he stole all the money out of the fountain at the 6 museum and it was caught on a tape recording and so 7 the police came and wrote him a ticket and they were 8 going to go to the more drastic measures. Mark and I 9 told them we would leave and asked if they would go 10 easy on him. 11 Q And did they go easy on him? 12 A We left, yes. 13 Q What happened to the ticket? 14 A I'm not sure. 15 Q Do you recall whether Justin ever paid the 16 ticket? 17 A I think we sent it to his mother. I don't 18 know if she ever paid it, but I believe we sent it to 19 his mother. 20 Q What other instances can you remember 21 where he broke any of your rules? 22 A Justin was very good on the computer and 23 he had an addiction to porn and, yeah, he broke the 24 Internet rule. 25 Q When was the first time that you became Page 360 1 aware that he viewed pornography on his computer? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q How early in his time at The Whitmore 4 Academy did you find out that he had viewed 5 pornography? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Was it within the first two months? 8 A Don't remember. 9 Q First six months? 10 A Don't remember. 11 Q How often do you recall being informed 12 that he would view pornography? 13 A Don't remember. 14 Q I mean, did this happen one time? Did 15 this happen five times? Give me some sense of how 16 often you're talking about. 17 A More than once and I couldn't tell you how 18 many times. 19 Q Did you ever have a group about this? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How many groups do you recall having about 22 this? 23 A Don't remember. 24 Q Did it happen more than once? 25 A I said I don't remember. Page 361 1 Q Do you recall taking any steps to prevent 2 him from having unsupervised access to the Internet? 3 A Yes. 4 Q What steps? 5 A His computer was taken away from him. 6 Q And was it ever given back? 7 A No, he used other people's computers. 8 Q And do you have any memory of whether he 9 viewed Internet pornography using other people's 10 computers? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Whose computer? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Did you take any steps to supervise him 15 while he was using other people's computers? 16 A Yes. 17 Q What steps? 18 A Everybody lost their Internet rights. 19 Q Permanently? 20 A No. 21 Q How long did everybody lose -- 22 A I don't remember. 23 MR. FERGUSON: Let him finish his 24 question. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. Page 362 1 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) How long did everybody 2 lose their Internet rights for? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q I mean, is this for a day? A week? A 5 month? Give me some sense of what you're talking. 6 A More than once, but I don't remember how 7 long. 8 Q Let me make sure I understand this right. 9 You were aware that Justin Beasley had -- I think you 10 used the word addiction. Justin Beasley would view 11 Internet pornography and you still allowed him to use 12 other people's computers; is that right? 13 A Absolutely not. 14 Q You didn't allow him to use other people's 15 computers? 16 A No. 17 Q You never allowed him to use anyone else's 18 computer? 19 A He used my computer when I was there. 20 Sometimes he would use my computer when I wasn't there 21 against the rules. 22 Q Were you ever aware of him looking at 23 Internet pornography from your computer? 24 A No. 25 Q So other than the occasion on which he Page 363 1 looked at Internet pornography on his own computer, 2 are you aware of any specific instances where he 3 actually looked at Internet pornography from someone 4 else's computer? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I'm a little confused. I thought you just 7 told me that he didn't use anyone else's computer. 8 MR. FERGUSON: You asked her if he had 9 permission or if she allowed him to use other 10 computers and she said no. 11 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. So, then, to 12 clarify, you're saying that he used other people's 13 computers without permission? 14 A Completely. 15 Q Okay. And you discovered it after the 16 fact? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And did you -- okay. Let's talk about 19 Leah Schacherer. 20 A I wasn't through with some of the things I 21 remember about Justin. 22 Q Oh, please, go ahead. 23 A I remember at BYU he stole those little -- 24 what do you call them? The little hard drives, the 25 tiny ones you can stick in your computer. Page 364 1 MR. FERGUSON: Flash drive? 2 THE WITNESS: From the bookstore and it 3 made it so the kids weren't allowed to go to the 4 bookstore. 5 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Who said that the 6 students weren't allowed to go to the bookstore? 7 A The staff at BYU. 8 Q Do you know if they wrote him a ticket? 9 A No. 10 Q You don't know if they did or they didn't? 11 A No, they did not. 12 Q How was he caught stealing flash drives? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q Tell me everything you remember about that 15 incident. 16 A I just did. 17 Q You just remember some vague sense that he 18 had been caught stealing flash drives from the 19 bookstore? 20 MR. FERGUSON: Mischaracterizes her 21 testimony. 22 MR. TENNEY: She hasn't given me anything 23 specific. 24 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) All you've said is that 25 you remember that he stole something, but you don't Page 365 1 remember anything about -- 2 A Yes, I said the kids weren't allowed to go 3 to the bookstore. 4 Q Okay. Were you there when this happened? 5 A No, I wasn't. 6 Q Were you in Provo when this happened? 7 A Yes, I was. 8 Q Were you at BYU when this happened? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Were you with the students when this 11 happened? 12 A Not Justin's group. 13 Q Were you there when any official from BYU 14 told you that students could not go back to the 15 bookstore? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q You don't remember that conversation at 18 all? 19 A No, I don't. 20 Q Okay. Can you think of any other 21 instances in which Justin Beasley broke any of your 22 rules? 23 A Not -- I can't recall at this time. 24 Q Do you recall any instances in which 25 Justin Beasley was dishonest in any way, other than Page 366 1 the things that we've already talked about? 2 A He tried to make his own transcripts. 3 Q Tell me about that. 4 A I don't remember. I just remember that he 5 tried to make his own transcripts. 6 Q Tell me everything you remember about 7 him trying to make -- 8 A I just did. 9 Q You just remember that it happened? 10 A Yes. 11 Q How did you find out about it? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Well, how do you know that he tried making 14 his own transcripts then? 15 A I just recall that he did. 16 Q Do you recall having a group about it? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Do you recall whether he tried making 19 anyone else's transcripts? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Do you recall how he was caught? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Do you recall whose computer he was using? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Do you recall when during his stay at The Page 367 1 Whitmore Academy that this happened? Was it at the 2 beginning of his time or the end of his time? 3 A No. 4 Q You don't recall? 5 A No. I just know it happened. 6 Q But you don't recall any of the details 7 regarding that at all? 8 A My memory doesn't afford me that luxury. 9 Q Your memory doesn't afford you the luxury 10 of remembering details? 11 A Nope. No. 12 Q Okay. Can you think of any other 13 instances in which Justin Beasley was dishonest in any 14 way? 15 A No, I can't recall. 16 Q Anything else you'd like to tell me about 17 Justin Beasley before we move on? 18 A No. 19 Q Okay. Let's talk about Leah Schacherer. 20 When did you first come in contact with either Susan 21 Schacherer or Janet Schacherer? 22 A I just remembered something about Justin. 23 Q Please. 24 A Now you get me going and I'll remember 25 things all through the day. Page 368 1 Q That's why we're here. 2 A He was mostly afraid to go home because he 3 sold drugs at the school that he had attended before 4 and he was crying when he told me this. He was afraid 5 that he would get back into it. 6 Q When did he tell you this? 7 A When he asked if he could stay longer. 8 Q And when was this? 9 A Towards the end of his time. 10 Q And under what circumstance were you 11 having this conversation? Were you in a car? Were 12 you in the mansion? Where were you? 13 A We were at the arena house. I think it 14 was after a session with Tim. 15 Q Were other people around? 16 A No. Well, at one point -- I think there 17 was a time in group that he expressed it to the kids, 18 but I don't remember. 19 Q But you do remember that sometime toward 20 the end of his stay you and he had this conversation 21 in the arena house; is that right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So he asked you if he could stay longer so 24 he could avoid going back to that habit; is that 25 right? Page 369 1 A He knew, in his words, that he would 2 resort back to that. 3 Q And how did you respond? 4 A I told him that we could have a 5 conversation with Tim and see if we could work out a 6 way that he could stay on and work -- 7 Q And did that happen? 8 A -- because his money -- mother had no 9 money. I don't remember. 10 Q Do you recall whether he stayed on after 11 his term? 12 A Actually, yes, it did happen. I remember 13 now. 14 Q And what happened? How long did he stay? 15 A No. No. I don't remember him staying, 16 but I remember having the conversation with Tim. 17 Q Okay. And tell me about that 18 conversation. 19 A Just about him staying on and working. 20 Q And did Tim approve of that idea? 21 A He wasn't excited at first, but he said 22 maybe we could make it work. 23 Q Why wasn't he excited, do you have any 24 understanding of that? 25 A Justin was a ball of fire. Page 370 1 Q And what does that mean? 2 A He disrupted everywhere and everything 3 that he did. 4 Q How often was Justin the subject of a 5 group? 6 A Probably quite often because he was 7 usually the focus of the problem. 8 Q Tell me all the instances that you 9 remember in which he was the focus of a group. 10 A I can't. I don't remember. 11 Q Tell me any instance that you can 12 remember -- 13 A I don't -- I couldn't recall that. 14 Q Tell me any instance -- other than the 15 things we've talked about, tell me any other instance 16 you can think of in which he was the source of any 17 disciplinary problem. 18 A I don't remember. 19 Q Okay. Did Justin stay after his term was 20 up to work in your program? 21 A He was going to, but then his mother 22 really missed him and wanted him to come home. 23 Q So it's your memory that he did not stay 24 after his contract was up? 25 A I don't think he stayed even until his Page 371 1 contract was up. He didn't stay a whole year. 2 Q Tell me what you remember about when he 3 left. 4 A I -- oh, when he left? 5 Q Yeah. 6 A It was parents' weekend and parents' 7 weekend was really awesome. The kids -- usually most 8 of the parents were there. I think there was over 100 9 parents at that time that had shown up, with 10 grandparents and siblings. And all of the kids had 11 songs that they were singing and mission statements 12 and they had power point presentations. It was 13 awesome. It made the parents cry because their child 14 was so amazing. And Justin's parents were so 15 embarrassed because Justin wouldn't participate. 16 Q When you say "parents," who was there? 17 A His father and his stepmother and his 18 mother. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And he didn't have his mission statement. 21 He refused to work on his school. He was just a huge 22 disappointment. And so they asked if they could meet 23 with Mark and I and they couldn't understand this 24 aggression that Justin had been building up towards 25 me, because he was resentful that I couldn't just give Page 372 1 him a transcript that didn't exist. 2 Q Let's pause there and talk about his 3 transcript. When you say that you couldn't -- they 4 were resentful that you couldn't give him a 5 transcript -- 6 A He wanted us to graduate him in spite of 7 the fact that he didn't do his schoolwork. 8 Q So you had decided not to graduate him? 9 A We couldn't. 10 Q Why? 11 A He hadn't turned in all of his 12 assignments. 13 Q Which assignments did he not turn in? 14 A I couldn't tell you that. 15 Q Who was he supposed to turn them in to? 16 A I don't know who was on staff. Susan, the 17 principal, the teachers. None of the teacher were 18 pleased with Justin. 19 Q Which teachers are you talking about? 20 A Well, the kids have a math teacher, a 21 science teacher, an English teacher, history teacher, 22 the principal. 23 Q Were these the teachers that you were 24 employing as part of your program? Is that right? 25 A Yes. Page 373 1 Q My understanding was that Justin Beasley 2 was educated through the Landmark school. 3 A He was at one point. They weren't pleased 4 with him so he had to come and do school with us. 5 Q So you had already started running your 6 own school at that point? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you know if he ever got a transcript 9 from Landmark? 10 A I couldn't tell you. 11 Q So he transferred over to your school and 12 you were told that he wasn't doing his homework; is 13 that right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q So then you refused to give him a 16 transcript? 17 A Well, that's -- you don't do that. 18 Q You don't do what? 19 A Give kids transcripts that haven't earned 20 the credit. 21 Q When you were running your own school, 22 during that period of this, who decided what credits a 23 student had earned? 24 A The teacher. 25 Q Did you have any control over that at all? Page 374 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know if Mark had any control over 3 that at all? 4 A No. 5 Q So you took the teacher's word for it 6 directly; is that right? 7 A Well, they have a tracking system. It's 8 just like any other school. 9 Q Did you have any ability to override the 10 teachers in any way as far as credit goes? 11 A Absolutely not. 12 Q Did you have the ability to override the 13 teachers in any way as far as grades go? 14 A No. 15 Q So who was the administrator that put all 16 the different grades together and put out the 17 transcript? I mean, you say you had different 18 teachers for different subjects, so a history teacher 19 gives a grade -- 20 A I don't know, but I think it was Tom or 21 Rick, the two principals. 22 Q Tom Hudson or Rick. What's Rick's last 23 name? 24 A Wrigley. 25 Q And so you never had any involvement in Page 375 1 those transcripts at all? 2 A No. 3 Q So going back to Justin's stepparents, you 4 said that Justin's stepparents were there for parents' 5 weekend, they were upset because Justin wasn't 6 participating and so forth and they requested a 7 meeting with you and Mark; is that right? 8 A Because of their disappointment with 9 Justin. 10 Q Tell me about that meeting. 11 A Justin just acted completely different. 12 He was very aggressive towards me and hateful, where 13 Justin and I had had a pretty close relationship up to 14 that point. 15 Q How close was your relationship with 16 Justin? 17 A Well, I had to spend a lot of time with 18 Justin because of the need. He's a needy person. 19 Q What do you mean by spending time with 20 him? Where would you spend time with him? 21 A Well, when the kids are feeling the way 22 Justin felt, he felt abandoned by his parents, he felt 23 scared, he just had a lot of emotions and he liked 24 talking. 25 Q So you would talk with him one-on-one? Page 376 1 A A lot. 2 Q And where would you have these 3 conversations? 4 A Usually in the parlor or at the school, 5 just wherever. 6 Q So, I mean, were these counseling sessions 7 that you were having with him? 8 A No. 9 Q Were these therapy sessions that you were 10 having with him? 11 A We were having friends' sessions. 12 Q So how does Justin end up leaving early? 13 A He just -- his parents wanted him to stay 14 and he refused and that's how he left. 15 Q Who made the decision -- do you know who 16 made the decision to pull him? 17 A No one pulled him. He refused to stay. 18 Q Do you know who bought him his plane 19 ticket home? 20 A I have no idea. 21 Q Who told you that he was leaving early? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Do you know if his parents got a -- 24 A It was a surprise to me. 25 Q Do you know if his parents got a refund Page 377 1 for any of the time that he had not -- 2 A Well, if she only paid $20,000, I know the 3 tuition was higher than that and he only left about 4 two weeks early. 5 Q Do you know if his natural father and 6 natural mother were splitting the cost of his time? 7 A I have no idea. I think so though. I got 8 that impression somehow. 9 Q Did you try to convince any of his parents 10 to not let him leave early? 11 A I told him it would be to his advantage if 12 he stayed so he could finish his school year. 13 Q And who did you tell that to? 14 A I don't remember in that meeting. 15 Q Do you recall any meeting in which you 16 tried convincing any of his parents to not let him 17 leave early? 18 MR. FERGUSON: I think your question 19 misstates the evidence, which is the parents wanted 20 him to stay and he refused to stay. 21 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. But at some point 22 somebody other than Justin had to make the decision 23 that he was going to leave early; is that right? 24 A No. That was Justin's decision. 25 Q Is it your testimony that minors had the Page 378 1 ability to make their own decisions regarding whether 2 they were going -- 3 A He -- 4 Q Hold on. Let me finish my question. 5 Is it your testimony that minors under 6 your care had the authority to make their own 7 decisions regarding whether they were going to stay in 8 your program. 9 A Yeah. I told you we were an open-door 10 policy, but normally that didn't happen. 11 Q So if at any point any of the minors under 12 your care wanted to leave, your testimony is they had 13 the ability to just say, I'm out of here? 14 A I don't understand your question. 15 Q Help me understand who had the ability to 16 pull somebody out of your program. Did the parents 17 have to sign off on it? 18 A That's still too broad of a question. 19 Q How is that broad? 20 A Well, it looks like DCFS had the ability 21 to come and take them. 22 Q Okay. We're not talking about DCFS right 23 now. I'm talking about -- 24 A Well, you just said the parents were the 25 only ones who had the ability to take them. No. Page 379 1 Q No, I'm not talking about taking a kid. 2 You said that Justin is the only person who decided 3 that he was going to leave and I'm trying to figure 4 out, under your rules, under your policies and 5 procedures, if a student, who was a minor was under 6 your care, decided that they had had enough of your 7 program, did the student have to get his or her 8 parents' okay in order to leave? 9 A Well, obviously not. Joyce Harris paid to 10 take some of our students away and was able to do it. 11 Q I'm not asking about Joyce Harris. I'm 12 talking about your rules, your procedures. If a minor 13 under your care wanted to leave, did they have to get 14 their parents' okay to leave? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: Are we talking about 16 withdrawing from the program? 17 MR. TENNEY: I'm talking about withdrawing 18 from the program. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. You're going to have 20 to state this in a way I can understand, because I'm 21 not understanding. 22 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. If a minor who was 23 in your program -- who was enrolled in your program 24 wanted to withdraw from the program, whose permission 25 did they have to get to withdraw from the program? Page 380 1 A Normally it would be the parents. 2 Q So the parents did have to approve the 3 withdrawal? 4 A No. I mean, we would like that, but no. 5 From what I'm telling you, there's times throughout 6 this, especially last year, there was a lot of kids 7 that withdrew when their parents didn't want them to 8 or gave permission for them to. 9 Q If minors had the ability to withdraw 10 whenever they wanted, did they also have the ability 11 to leave the program whenever they wanted, physically 12 leave, decided that they wanted to go to Provo for the 13 day, could they do that? 14 A It was against the rules. But like I just 15 told you, Joyce Harris was able to get them to go 16 clear to Bonaparte to the drug fest. 17 Q I'm not talking about Joyce Harris. I'm 18 talking about your rules and procedures. 19 If a student wanted to leave to go 20 anywhere, a student wanted to go to Provo, a student 21 wanted to go to 7-Eleven, a student just wanted to go 22 somewhere, did they have to get your okay to leave to 23 go somewhere? 24 A That was the normal procedure. 25 Q Was for them to get the okay? Page 381 1 A Yes. 2 Q But did they have to? 3 A I can't answer that because I don't 4 understand your question. 5 Q Was a student required to get your 6 permission to leave? 7 MS. SHAPIRO: In order not to be in 8 violation of the rules? 9 MR. TENNEY: In order not to be in 10 violation of the rules. 11 THE WITNESS: They had to get our 12 permission to leave in order to not be in violation of 13 the rules. 14 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. So there was a 15 rule that they could not leave without your 16 permission? 17 A I never said that. 18 MR. TENNEY: Can you read back her last 19 answer for us? 20 (Pending answer was read back by the court 21 reporter.) 22 THE WITNESS: That's exactly what I mean. 23 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So there was a rule that 24 they could not leave without your permission? 25 A No, I didn't say that. Page 382 1 Q What did you say? 2 A The students could not leave without being 3 in violation of the rules. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: I think it's a matter of 5 semantics. 6 MR. TENNEY: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Sorry, but that's the way my 8 mind thinks. 9 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) This is what I'm having a 10 hard time with: You're saying the students had the 11 ability to withdraw at will. If the student had the 12 ability to withdraw at will, why was it a problem when 13 they ran away? 14 A Because they were in violation of the 15 rules. 16 Q So you're saying, okay, as long as they're 17 in the program they can't go anywhere, but at any 18 point they have the ability to decide they're not in 19 the program anymore; is that right? 20 A Yeah, the door's not locked. 21 Q I'm not talking about locks on the doors. 22 I'm talking about their status as being part of your 23 program. 24 A They have that choice. 25 Q So how were you in any position to tell Page 383 1 them they couldn't go anywhere? How were you in 2 position, for example -- let's just use this specific 3 example. Justin Beasley decides he wants to go to the 4 airport, he wants to leave church and go to the 5 airport. What authority did you have to tell him he 6 couldn't do that? 7 A I need to talk about this a little longer 8 because I'm not understanding your question. 9 Q Okay. I'm trying to be real clear. My 10 wife tells me I'm confusing sometimes. I'm trying to 11 be real clear right now. 12 A Okay. Well, you're not presenting it to 13 me in a way I can understand you. 14 Q I'll do my best. 15 What authority did you have to tell Justin 16 Beasley that he couldn't leave church and go to the 17 airport? 18 A Say it again. 19 Q What authority did you have to tell Justin 20 Beasley that he could not leave church and go to the 21 airport? 22 A I'm the one -- Mark and I were the ones 23 who made sure that the kids didn't break the rules and 24 that was one of the rules, but we've always given 25 those choices to the kids. They make their choices, Page 384 1 but they also suffer the consequences. 2 Q So it was a violation of the rules for 3 them to leave without your permission? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. Let's talk about Leah Schacherer. 6 A I think I said that. 7 Q Okay. Let's talk about Leah Schacherer. 8 What is your first memory of talking to either Susan 9 Schacherer or Janet Schacherer? 10 A Say that again. 11 Q When do you first recall ever having -- 12 let me be more specific. 13 When do you recall ever having -- when do 14 you recall having first had any communications with, 15 let's say, Susan Schacherer? 16 A Okay. I remember this well. Susan 17 Schacherer came with Janet Schacherer to the mansion 18 without Leah and I was upstairs on the top floor with 19 the girls in their bedroom. We were having a talk. 20 At that time there was maybe, I don't remember, 10, 12 21 kids in the program. And they came up and Susan 22 Schacherer was a very expressive woman and -- is that 23 the mother's name? 24 Q Susan is the -- I'll just represent to you 25 Susan is grandma and Janet is mother? Page 385 1 A Okay. Janet was more quiet. Susan was 2 just blown out of her mind. I can't believe this, 3 this is what I want for Leah, she's got to be here, do 4 you girls like it. And she didn't hardly talk to me, 5 she talked to the girl. She talked about how she dyed 6 her hair red and then she dyed it black and how her -- 7 I'm going into detail and I don't need to do that. 8 Anyway, that's when I first remember 9 meeting her. Susan was a lot more quiet. 10 Q Did they have Leah with them at this 11 point? 12 A No. 13 Q So this was before Leah was enrolled? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Do you recall discussing with them on that 16 occasion the therapy that would be available to Leah 17 when she came? 18 A No, not at all. 19 Q Is it your testimony that you did not 20 discuss therapy with them on that occasion? 21 A No, we didn't. 22 Q Did you discuss the education that Leah 23 would receive with them on that occasion? 24 A No, we didn't. That wasn't a priority to 25 them at that time. They just wanted Leah out of their Page 386 1 house. 2 Q But your testimony is that you did not 3 discuss the education with them at that time? 4 A I think they asked the girls how they did 5 the school. 6 Q Were you there for that conversation? 7 A I was there, but I don't remember it. 8 Q You remember that it happened, but you 9 don't remember anything about it; is that right? 10 A I remember them talking to the girls. But 11 no, I was doing other things. 12 Q At any point prior to Leah being enrolled, 13 do you recall having had any communications with Susan 14 Schacherer regarding the therapy that Leah would have 15 available to her? 16 A I don't recall when or what, but I do 17 remember education was not at all -- 18 Q We'll do education in a second. My 19 question is actually about therapy. 20 Do you recall at any time prior to Leah 21 being in rolled having had any communications -- and 22 I'll break it down person to person -- having had any 23 communications with Susan Schacherer -- 24 A No. 25 Q -- regarding therapy? Page 387 1 A No. 2 Q Do you recall having had any 3 communications with Janet Schacherer prior to Leah 4 being enrolled regarding therapy? 5 A No. 6 Q Let's talk about education. Do you recall 7 at any time prior to Leah being enrolled having had 8 any communications with Susan Schacherer regarding 9 education? 10 A I just remember once on the telephone 11 talking to Janet, the mom. 12 Q Janet, okay. 13 A It was very rare if we ever talked to her 14 grandmother, which was maybe once during her whole 15 stay. 16 Q We're talking preenrollment right now. 17 A Okay. Preenrollment, no. 18 Q No conversations with either one of them 19 about education? 20 A No, not until after enrollment. 21 Q What was your understanding of who were 22 contracting, Susan or Janet? Let's make this easier, 23 grandma or mom? 24 A I told you I didn't take care of the 25 enrollment, admissions. Page 388 1 Q Did you have any understanding of who was 2 actually the contracting party between grandma or mom? 3 A Well, since most of our communication was 4 with Janet, I presume it was Janet. 5 Q Do you know how much the Schacherers paid 6 you? 7 A I have no idea. 8 Q The Schacherers are alleging that they 9 paid you, there's some variance in this, but 10 approximately $40,000. Do you have any basis for 11 disputing that amount? 12 A I know that Leah was there for over a 13 year, so I don't know. 14 Q Do you have any basis for disputing that 15 they paid you approximately $40,000? 16 A I couldn't -- I couldn't say yes or no on 17 that. 18 Q How was Leah educated? 19 A Leah was one of the, actually, lucky 20 students. She got to go to Landmark. She was part 21 of -- I had a goal to help Leah graduate, personally, 22 and we tried every way we could because she was 23 failing at the school she came to before us. 24 Q And did you accomplish your goal? 25 A Yes, she did graduate. She got a diploma Page 389 1 from Landmark High School. 2 Q Did you ever make any physical contact 3 with Leah Schacherer? 4 A No. 5 Q Did you ever slap her? 6 A No. 7 Q Did you ever push her? 8 A No. 9 Q Did you ever kick her? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you ever throw anything at her? 12 A Not that I remember. 13 Q Leah has described an incident in which 14 she was caught stealing medications from Bernardo. 15 You and I talked about that briefly yesterday. Do you 16 recall? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Leah has stated in her deposition -- I'll 19 represent to you that this is what she stated. She 20 stated that after you discovered that she had stolen 21 medications from Bernardo you had responded by 22 throwing some books at her. Did you throw books at 23 her? 24 A No. 25 Q Did you spit at her at that point? Page 390 1 A No. 2 Q Did you spit at her at any point? 3 A No. 4 Q Did you throw her over a chair? 5 A No. I remember something about when she'd 6 come home from a date. 7 Q Okay. What do you remember about that? 8 A Not much, but I do remember she was 9 sitting in a chair, kind of backwards, and she did 10 fall. 11 Q Did you make any contact with her at that 12 point? 13 A No. 14 Q So she just fell on her own? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was she hurt? 17 A No. 18 Q While Leah was a student at The Whitmore 19 Academy, were you ever made aware of any instance in 20 which Leah had been physically assaulted by another 21 student? 22 A I just told you about Justin. 23 Q Okay. Other than the Justin incident that 24 we've already talked about, are you aware of any other 25 such incident? Page 391 1 A The only thing I remember about Leah is 2 that she spit on me a lot. 3 Q How often did she spit on you? 4 A The kids would remember more than I. 5 Q Who? Who would remember? 6 A Caitlyn. 7 Q Caitlyn Loggins? 8 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 9 Q I believe Caitlyn Loggins is going to be 10 testifying in your behalf; is that right? 11 A I believe so. I hope so. 12 Q How do you remember that Caitlyn would be 13 aware of Leah spitting on you? 14 A Caitlyn had a computer that was by my 15 computer and she was around me more than the other 16 kids. 17 Q So you remember Leah spitting on you in 18 front of Caitlyn? 19 A Uh-huh. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: Is that a yes? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Thank you. How often do 23 you remember Leah spitting on you around Caitlyn? 24 A I don't know. 25 Q Did that happen more than once? Page 392 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Do you recall ever having a group on Leah 3 as a result of Leah having spit on you? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q You don't recall that ever happening that 6 you had a group on Leah because she spit on you? 7 A Not at this time. 8 Q Do you think there will be another time 9 where you will remember this? 10 A Could be. 11 Q But right now, as you sit here today, you 12 don't remember ever having a group on Leah as a result 13 of her having spit on you? 14 A No. 15 Q Were you ever told, while Leah was a 16 student at your program, that Leah had been physically 17 aggressive towards another student? 18 A Yes. 19 Q When were you told that? 20 A I don't know. 21 Q Who told you that? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Tell me anything you remember about 24 anybody ever telling you that Leah had been physically 25 aggressive towards another student. Page 393 1 A Just that she was on a power trip. 2 Q When? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q Against whom? 5 A I believe it was girls, but I don't 6 remember. 7 Q Do you remember which girls? 8 A The quieter ones. 9 Q Which girls were the quieter girls? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q So you don't remember any specific person 12 that you were ever told Leah had been aggressive 13 toward? 14 A No. It's very vague to me. 15 Q Tell me all the instances that you can 16 remember in which Leah had broken any of your rules. 17 A I just know there were quite a few, but I 18 couldn't tell you instances. 19 Q Which rules did she break? 20 A I don't remember at this time. 21 Q What punishments do you remember her 22 having had to go through as a result of these rule 23 violations? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Was Leah ever put in the Perry room? Page 394 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Was Leah ever put in the sheet room? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you recall having had any groups on 5 Leah of any kind? 6 A I don't remember, but probably. 7 Q You don't remember any specific groups, 8 though? 9 A No. 10 Q Now, you say that you don't remember these 11 things at this time. What do you think you're going 12 to do in the future that will help you remember these 13 things? 14 A Oh, it's amazing when kids get together 15 and start talking, it's funny what you remember. 16 Q So your plan is to talk to other people 17 prior to trial to help you remember these things? 18 A I don't enjoy talking about this with the 19 kids. I don't think it helps any of the kids in their 20 progress. The experience they had at The Whitmore was 21 something that changed most of their lives for a very 22 positive thing and I hate to set them back. They were 23 my kids. I love them. 24 Q So what are you going to do to remember 25 these things that you haven't already done? Page 395 1 A Well, I have a feeling when we go to court 2 there will be things that come up that will strike my 3 memory. 4 Q Just in your own memory? 5 A Yeah, and it will be very sad. 6 Q So your memory will be better next year 7 than it is right now? 8 A If I -- 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Argumentative. 10 MR. FERGUSON: The whole line of questions 11 makes no sense. 12 MR. TENNEY: Ms. Sudweeks has testified 13 that she doesn't remember any details about any of 14 these things and she's testifying that she's going to 15 remember in the future. 16 MR. FERGUSON: She didn't say that. You 17 asked her what she was going to do to try to remember 18 things in the future. She has said nothing about 19 whether she's going to try, or whether there's some 20 technique she can use. 21 She doesn't remember today. I know you're 22 frustrated by that. We're frustrated by that. It 23 doesn't help to argue with her about whether she's 24 going to do something in the future that might help 25 her remember something in the future. Maybe she will, Page 396 1 maybe she won't. And if she does, you know, beat her 2 up with her transcript. 3 MR. TENNEY: All right. That's fair 4 enough. 5 Let's talk about Lindsey Kleeberger. 6 Do you want to take a five-minute break 7 now? 8 MR. FERGUSON: Yeah, we've been going a 9 little over an hour. 10 MR. TENNEY: All right. Sounds good. 11 (A break was taken from 10:18 a.m. to 12 10:36 a.m.) 13 MR. TENNEY: We're back on. We've already 14 talked about Justin Beasley and I kind of want to go 15 back and talk about him some more. But I was just 16 handed a photograph that I did want to confirm and 17 mark as an exhibit. 18 (EXHIBIT 30 WAS MARKED.) 19 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm showing you what's 20 been marked as Exhibit No. 30. What is this picture? 21 Tell me what it is. 22 A It used to be one of my favorite kids. 23 Q Who is this? 24 A Justin. 25 Q This is Justin Beasley, and what is he Page 397 1 wearing? 2 A I don't know. 3 MR. FERGUSON: You indicated yesterday 4 that you had a photograph of him in the female 5 clothing and this is the photo you brought. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, these are the clothes 7 you picked to wear. 8 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. And this is what 9 we were talking about yesterday regarding that he had 10 broken a rule and the group had picked out female 11 clothing, is that what we're talking about? 12 A Yeah, I don't remember what exactly -- oh, 13 it was the running away thing. 14 Q Right. Okay. All right. We'll keep this 15 with the other exhibits. 16 Okay. Let's talk about Shawn Snider. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: I thought you were going to 18 go to Kleeberger? 19 MR. TENNEY: Yeah, I'm going to switch up 20 the order to bring the mood down a little bit. 21 THE WITNESS: I really hate this. 22 MR. TENNEY: Well, it will be over in a 23 few hours. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) When did you first -- Page 398 1 Shawn Snider was a student of yours; is that right? 2 A (Witness nods head up and down.) 3 Q Is that a yes? 4 A I have to stop for a minute. 5 MR. TENNEY: Okay. We'll go off the 6 record. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Let's talk about Shawn 9 Snider. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q Shawn was a student of yours; is that 12 right? 13 A Yes, he was. 14 Q Shawn's mother is Connie; is that right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q When was the first time you remember 17 having any contact with Connie Snider? 18 A What comes to my mind is her standing on 19 the porch. She missed her son a lot. I don't 20 remember her when he was enrolled. Shawn came during 21 a time we enrolled a lot of kids and I always felt she 22 was jealous of me. 23 Q Why did you think she was jealous of you? 24 A Because she couldn't help her son. 25 Q And so why would that make her jealous of Page 399 1 you? 2 A She just had an attitude towards me 3 because Shawn loved me. 4 Q I mean, did he tell you that he loved you? 5 A Yes, he did. 6 Q Prior to Shawn being enrolled, do you 7 recall having any communications with Connie Snider? 8 A No. 9 Q You don't remember any phone 10 conversations? 11 A No. 12 Q Any e-mails? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you recall whether you sent her 15 anything through the mail? 16 A I told you I wasn't involved with the 17 admissions process. 18 Q Okay. I have to ask. Do you recall how 19 much Connie Snider paid you? 20 A Connie was very direct. She wasn't the 21 kind of mother who begged for a discount like a lot of 22 people do, like Susan Beasley especially. 23 Q Did Susan Beasley beg for a discount? 24 A Yes. She just kept complaining about 25 money. Page 400 1 Q Let's pause and talk about that for a 2 minute. You brought it up. 3 A Sorry. 4 Q Do you recall whether Susan Beasley 5 received a discount of any kind? 6 A I don't recall, but I have that 7 impression. 8 Q Do you know that with any certainty? 9 A No, not at all. 10 Q Okay. Back to Connie Snider. Do you 11 recall how much Connie Snider paid you? 12 A I don't. I told you I wasn't involved, 13 but I believe she borrowed the money. 14 Q How do you know that, or how do you 15 believe that? 16 A I don't know. It's an impression I have. 17 Q I'll represent to you that Connie is 18 alleging that she paid you approximately $40,000. Do 19 you have any basis on which to dispute that amount? 20 A No. 21 Q While Shawn Snider was under your care, 22 how was he educated? 23 A Shawn had a hard time doing schoolwork and 24 I believe he chose not to go to Landmark, but I think 25 we gave him that option. Page 401 1 Q Do you remember whether he went or not? 2 A No, I don't think he did because he wanted 3 to -- because he was excited about doing the horse 4 program. 5 Q Why would the horse program have 6 interfered with him going to Landmark? 7 A He became obsessed with it. 8 Q Buy why would that have had anything to do 9 with whether or not he went to Landmark? 10 A He didn't feel comfortable going to a 11 traditional school. 12 Q What did the horses have to do with that? 13 A He could be around them during the day. 14 Q So, in other words, by not going to 15 Landmark during the day he could spend time around the 16 horses; is that right? 17 A I believe. 18 Q Do you know if he did the Landmark 19 packets? 20 A Yes, I know that. 21 Q Do you know if he did any other courses. 22 A I'm not sure what he did. 23 Q Do you know whether he received a 24 transcript as a result of having done the packets? 25 A I'm not sure what the outcome was. Page 402 1 Q Do you know whether Shawn received therapy 2 while he was under your care? 3 A Yes, I do. 4 Q What do you know about that? 5 A That it was very important for Connie to 6 have that communication with Tim. 7 Q With Tim? 8 A And Shawn. 9 Q With Tim? 10 A Tim Lowe, the therapist for Shawn. 11 Q So Shawn was receiving therapy from Tim 12 Lowe; is that right? 13 A To my knowledge, mostly Tim. 14 Q Who else was he receiving therapy from? 15 A I said to my knowledge. That's all I 16 remember. 17 Q Do you recall any incident in which Shawn 18 was physically assaulted by any other student? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you recall any incident in which Shawn 21 physically assaulted another student? 22 A No. 23 Q Do you recall ever being told that Shawn 24 had been involved in any physical altercation with any 25 student? Page 403 1 A No. It wasn't his nature. 2 Q Do you recall any incident in which Shawn 3 broke a school rule? 4 A No, I don't recall, but I know he did. 5 Q And what do you know that he did? 6 A It's just my impression that he did 7 something and I don't remember what it was. 8 Q Do you recall Shawn ever being the focus 9 for a group? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you recall any incident in which Shawn 12 was dishonest in any way? 13 A No, but I have an impression that he was 14 at different points. 15 Q And what's the basis for that impression? 16 A Just my intuition. 17 Q Other than your intuition, do you have any 18 memory of Shawn being dishonest in any way? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What's that memory? 21 A Leah wanted to have a relationship with 22 him and relationships weren't allowed unless the whole 23 group knew that they liked each other. 24 Q What do you mean "unless the whole group 25 knew that they liked each other"? Page 404 1 A Okay. It's a long one, but I'll make it 2 short. We had a coed program instead of -- just so 3 that kids would be in a more natural environment that 4 they would have come from and go back to so that the 5 values and the principles they learned while they were 6 with us would be more realistic and they could apply 7 them to their life. 8 So if the kids decided they had a crush, 9 which naturally would happen, then as a group we 10 decided that that would be okay. But if they ever 11 wanted to sit by each other at a movie or they wanted 12 to spend time together talking, you know, in the hall 13 or whatever, that it had to be approved. 14 Q Approved by whom? 15 A By mostly me. 16 Q Mostly you. Who else was authorized to 17 approve it? 18 A Well, like I said, it was talked about at 19 group. 20 Q So the group decided whether a boy and 21 girl could sit next to each other? 22 A No. They decided if they were being -- 23 okay. We had a list of relationship laws. 24 Q Okay. And where did that list come from? 25 A It was made up by the group. Page 405 1 Q Was that written down? 2 A Yes, it was. 3 Q Do you still have a copy of it? 4 A There's a very slight possibility that I 5 could probably get one, but I'm sure some of the kids 6 would remember it. 7 Q Okay. But do you still have a copy of it? 8 A I could possibly find it if it's on my 9 hard drive. 10 Q I'm going to request that you not take any 11 efforts to destroy or hide such a document and we'll 12 probably be filing a request for it. 13 A The problem with that is somehow my little 14 hard drive, the one that attaches to my computer, it's 15 broken. And that's very strange, I don't know how it 16 happened. 17 Q And when did it break? 18 A About the time this whole thing with Joyce 19 Harris crashing her computer happened. 20 Q Did it physically break? I mean, did the 21 pieces of it break? 22 A Yeah. It sounds like it's -- I'm going to 23 take it in to CompUSA and see if they can do anything. 24 Do you want to do it? 25 Q I'd be happy to, actually, yeah. Page 406 1 A Really? 2 Q Yeah. 3 A But we'll deal with that with your 4 counsel. 5 MR. FERGUSON: Yeah, the answer is no. 6 THE WITNESS: We really don't have much to 7 hide. 8 MR. TENNEY: Okay. Well, we'll sort 9 through that when the appropriate time comes. 10 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So you said that if 11 somebody had a crush, if a boy had a crush on a girl, 12 you would discuss it as a group. Who's the group that 13 would discuss this? 14 A The -- it sounds really crazy, but it was 15 very good and it was helpful. The kids that -- maybe 16 two or three couples that liked each other, we would 17 have a meeting with I and sometimes Tim, the 18 therapist. And sometimes if they held hands or did 19 something they weren't supposed to do, they would -- 20 it would be talked about at the group meetings. 21 Q And those group meetings, are those the 22 group meetings where all the other students attended 23 as well? 24 A Where the choices and the consequences go 25 together. Page 407 1 Q And was that with all the students? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did students need permission -- I'm just 4 trying to make sure I understand this correctly. Did 5 students need permission from you or from the group or 6 from anybody to sit together on a bus? 7 A Yes. 8 Q In terms of boys, girls? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So any time a boy and a girl were sitting 11 together on a bus ride, they had permission before 12 they had to do so? 13 A Yes. They usually had to sit by me. 14 Q Who had to sit by you? 15 A The boy and the girl that wanted to sit by 16 each other. 17 Q Were the benches long enough for three 18 people? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Were there multiple couples at any given 21 time? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q You mentioned before there was this list 24 of relationship rules. What rules do you recall were 25 part of this list? Page 408 1 A No holding hands, no kissing, no -- once a 2 week on Sundays they had to go over how this 3 relationship was helping them, what the advantages 4 were to having a friend like that and how they thought 5 dating could be helpful when they left. 6 Q Tell me, if you can remember, any of the 7 plaintiffs being involved in an approved relationship. 8 In fact, to make this easier, we can just walk through 9 them one by one and tell me if you recall that student 10 ever being involved in a relationship that had been 11 approved by this group. 12 Do you recall Justin Beasley ever being in 13 an approved relationship? 14 A No. 15 Q Justin Busa? 16 A No. 17 Q Erica Cira? 18 A No. 19 Q Joey Hamson? 20 A No. 21 Q Lindsey Kleeberger? 22 A No. 23 Q Shawn Snider? 24 A No. 25 Q Leah Schacherer? Page 409 1 A Yes. 2 Q Which relationships did Leah have that 3 were approved by a group? 4 A There was a boy named Cole that her mom 5 gave permission for her to date. 6 Q Cole Yates? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Other than Cole Yates, do you know of any 9 other relationships that she had that were approved? 10 A I know of relationships she had that 11 weren't approved. 12 Q Which ones were not approved? 13 A Shawn. 14 Q Shawn? 15 A Snider. 16 Q Okay. Did she actually have a 17 relationship, that you're aware of? 18 A I don't know. I just heard afterwards, 19 after she left, that she was pretty sneaky. 20 Q But did you hear afterwards that she had 21 had a relationship with Shawn Snider? 22 A It depends on what you mean by 23 relationship. 24 Q Well, what do you mean by relationship? 25 A I mean they were together at times I Page 410 1 didn't know about. 2 Q Were you ever told that they had held 3 hands? 4 A No. 5 Q Were you ever told that they had kissed? 6 A No. 7 Q Were you ever told that they had done 8 anything sexually intimate? 9 A No. I was just told that they liked each 10 other. 11 Q Okay. Jenna Sager, are you aware of any 12 approved relationships that Jenna Sager had? 13 A No. 14 Q Let's go back to Shawn Snider. Are you 15 aware of any instances where Shawn was dishonest in 16 any way? 17 A I just told you. 18 Q Other than having a non-approved 19 relationship with Leah Schacherer, are you aware of 20 any instances in which Shawn Snider was dishonest in 21 any way? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Are you aware -- other than his 24 non-approved relationship with Leah Schacherer, are 25 you aware of Shawn Snider breaking any of your rules? Page 411 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Okay. Let's talk about Lindsey 3 Kleeberger. Lindsey Kleeberger was a student of 4 yours; is that right. 5 A That's right. 6 Q My understanding is that Lindsey 7 Kleeberger's parents are Kent and Gwen Kleeberger; is 8 that right? 9 A That's right. 10 Q Do you recall having had any 11 communications with either of her parents prior to 12 Lindsey being enrolled? 13 A No. 14 Q You don't recall any phone conversations? 15 A No. 16 Q Any e-mails? 17 A No, I don't recall. 18 Q Do you recall whether you ever sent them 19 anything via mail? 20 A No. 21 Q Do you know how much the Kleebergers paid 22 you? 23 A No. 24 Q I'll represent to you that the Kleebergers 25 are alleging that they paid you approximately $38,000. Page 412 1 Do you have any basis to dispute that amount? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know how Lindsey Kleeberger was 4 educated while she was under your care? 5 A I know she went to Landmark. 6 Q Do you know if she received a transcript? 7 A I believe. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge of that? 9 A No, but I believe. 10 Q What's the basis for your belief? 11 A They didn't want to send her a transcript 12 because she left school early. 13 Q And do you know what ended up happening 14 with that? 15 A He made a lot of threats. 16 Q Who made a lot of threats? 17 A Mr. Kleeberger. 18 Q Who did he threaten? 19 A I believe, and this is not pure knowledge, 20 but I believe he thinks he was a very powerful man and 21 he called everybody he could to make it happen. 22 Q And how do you know that? 23 A Because it was a hassle there for a while. 24 Q Hassle for whom? 25 A For everyone who was involved with Page 413 1 Lindsey's education. 2 Q Was it a hassle for you? 3 A Well, his e-mails weren't exactly nice. 4 Q What e-mails did he send you about her 5 education? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Do you still have copies of those e-mails? 8 A Probably not. 9 Q You mentioned this yesterday and we put 10 off this discussion until now. You mentioned that 11 there was an incident in the fall of 2003 in which 12 Lindsey had been accused of having stolen money from a 13 vehicle. Do you recall any such incident? 14 A Yes. 15 Q How did you first learn that Lindsey had 16 allegedly stolen some money? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Do you remember if a student told you? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Do you remember how much money was stolen? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q Do you remember what vehicle it was stolen 23 from? 24 A The Suburban -- no, I don't even remember 25 that. Something about the Suburban. Oh, that's what Page 414 1 she stole. She stole our Suburban. 2 Q She stole your Suburban, the car itself? 3 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 4 Q When she ran away? 5 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 6 Q Okay. We'll get to that in a second. So 7 you do remember, though, at some point Lindsey was 8 accused of having stolen some money? 9 A She admitted to stealing. 10 Q Some money? 11 A It was over $50. 12 Q Was it over $100? 13 A I don't remember. 14 Q When did she admit that she had stolen 15 money? 16 A About 10 minutes into the conversation. 17 Q Was it a group that you had on her? 18 A It turned into a group. 19 Q Who was there -- 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q -- for this group? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Were the other students there? 24 A There were other students. 25 Q Were all of the students there? Page 415 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q Do you remember approximately how many of 3 the students were there? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you remember who led this group? 6 A When we got together as a group and in a 7 situation like that, there was really no leader. Like 8 I told you before, I would usually supervise, or if 9 Tim was there. I can't remember if he was even there. 10 Q Who would lead it if Tim was not there? I 11 mean, if you were just supervising, who initiated the 12 discussion? 13 A That's what it was, a discussion. 14 Q Who started it? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q So you said that Lindsey admitted about 10 17 minutes into this group discussion that she had stolen 18 this money; is that right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you recall what prompted her to admit 21 this? 22 A Don't remember. 23 Q Was somebody questioning her about the 24 money? 25 A They were questioning everybody about the Page 416 1 money. 2 Q So they were going around the room -- 3 somebody was going around the room questioning the 4 students about the money? 5 A Not questioning one by one. It was a 6 discussion about who stole the money. 7 Q And so at some point Lindsey says, I stole 8 the money? 9 A Yeah. Yes. 10 Q So what happened to her as a result of 11 having stolen the money? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q It's my understanding that at some point 14 Lindsey recanted her confession. She said that she 15 had not, in fact, stolen the money. Did you ever hear 16 that Lindsey had recanted her confession? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Did you end up having another group 19 discussion about this money? 20 A I don't remember if it was the same 21 discussion that had gone on, but it went on for a 22 couple of hours anyway. 23 Q Okay. Let's talk about that discussion. 24 What prompted that discussion that you're talking 25 about? Page 417 1 A I think there was a few things, but I 2 don't remember. 3 Q What was the purpose of it? 4 A Truth. 5 Q Okay. 6 A The spiritual law of honesty and truth, 7 accountability, responsibility. 8 Q What prompted you to call this -- or did 9 you call this second discussion? 10 A It was typical at The Whitmore if over -- 11 if any money was missing that we would get together as 12 a group. 13 Q So was a second amount of money missing? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q So you end up having a group discussing 16 truth. Was Lindsey the focus of this group? 17 A No, it was -- it turned into -- once she 18 admitted it, it turned into what we try to teach the 19 kids. 20 Q Okay. I need to make sure, just for the 21 record, that we're talking about the same thing. So I 22 apologize in advance if this is repetitive. 23 There was a first group on Lindsey where 24 you discussed -- where she ended up admitting that she 25 had stolen the money, right? Page 418 1 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 2 Q Do you have any memory of how long that 3 group lasted? 4 A We didn't want it to last too long because 5 we had plans that night to go to The Savior of the 6 World. 7 Q Was that the first group where she 8 admitted to having stolen the money, is that the group 9 you're talking about? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So did you end up going to Savior of the 12 World? 13 A Yes, we did. 14 Q My understanding is that there was a 15 second group on Lindsey a few weeks later; is that 16 true? Was there a second group on Lindsey to discuss 17 the money? 18 A I couldn't tell you. There was 19 discussions quite a bit about Lindsey at that time. 20 Q Okay. Let me ask it this way: What's the 21 longest group discussion you ever remember that 22 Lindsey was the focus of? 23 A That's a false statement. Lindsey was 24 never the only focus of any group. 25 Q What's the longest group discussion that Page 419 1 you remember Lindsey being one of the focuses of? 2 A Well, if she admitted that she stole the 3 money 10 minutes later, then I would say 10 minutes. 4 Q Lindsey is alleging, and she testified 5 during her deposition, that there was a nine-hour 6 group therapy session held on her in December of 2003. 7 Do you recall there ever being a nine-hour 8 group therapy session on Lindsey in 2003? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: I'm going to object that it 10 misstates her testimony. Her deposition speaks for 11 itself. 12 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you recall there being 13 a nine-hour group therapy session -- group session on 14 Lindsey in 2003? 15 A I do not recall a nine-hour group session 16 being held on any one person. 17 Q What is the longest group session you ever 18 remember being held on anybody? 19 A I don't ever recall a nine-hour group 20 session. 21 Q What is the longest group session you ever 22 recall being held on anybody? 23 A I couldn't tell you, but never nine hours. 24 Q Okay. Lindsey said that there was a 25 nine-hour group held on her in December of 2003 that Page 420 1 culminated in the students at your program being 2 loaded into a van and going up to a dinner at Seven 3 Peaks. Does that sound like anything that you 4 remember ever occurring? 5 A I absolutely don't remember anything like 6 that. 7 Q Lindsey says that there was a -- at the 8 end of this group session you and Mark left the room, 9 you left the room for a period of time during which 10 she was assaulted by several other students, and that 11 you came back in the room and she told you that she 12 had been assaulted. Does that sound like anything you 13 remember? 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Same objection. 15 THE WITNESS: Same objection. 16 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You don't get to object. 17 Does that sound like anything you remember? 18 A You're going to have to explain that 19 again, then, because I don't understand. 20 Q Okay. Lindsey said that there was a long 21 group held on her, approximately nine hours. Sometime 22 toward the end of that group you and Mark left the 23 room. She says she was assaulted by several other 24 students. You came back into the room. She told you 25 that she had been assaulted. Do you recall anything Page 421 1 like that occurring? 2 A Well, the way that you've worded it I 3 would have to say no, but I do remember Lindsey being 4 in a room where the kids were mad at her. 5 Q Okay. That's what I'm asking you about. 6 Tell me about that. What do you remember about 7 Lindsey being in a room with kids being mad at her? 8 A First of all, I want you to know that it 9 wasn't a nine-hour group. 10 Q Okay. How long was it? 11 A The kids were in a room having a 12 discussion. Mark and I left the room to get lunch. 13 Q Okay. Let's talk about that. Who 14 initiated that group? 15 MR. FERGUSON: I think she didn't say it 16 was a group. 17 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Who initiated that 18 discussion? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Do you remember how many of the students 21 were there for it? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Do you remember if any of the students 24 were there? Name the students that you remember being 25 there for it. Page 422 1 A Caitlyn. 2 Q Caitlyn Waylin? 3 A Caitlyn Waylin. She had a bad temper. 4 Q Who else do you remember being there? 5 A But she's a wonderful girl. 6 Rob. 7 Q Porritz? 8 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 9 Q Okay. 10 A Maybe Casey. 11 Q Casey? 12 A Willis, but I'd be guessing. 13 Q Okay. Do you remember when this occurred, 14 what month, what year we're talking about? 15 A This is when we were going to The Savior 16 of the World. So it was in December, probably. 17 Q This is that first discussion where she 18 admitted to -- 19 A Yeah, there was only like one discussion 20 about this kind of thing. 21 Q So you only remember one discussion being 22 held about Lindsey stealing money? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Okay. You said that at some point during 25 this discussion you became aware that the students Page 423 1 were mad at her; is that right? 2 A Yes, they were. 3 Q How did you become aware that they were 4 mad at her? 5 A Because I was gone for five minutes in the 6 kitchen making lunch and when I came back in, one of 7 the kids had poured clean toilet water on her and that 8 really upset me. 9 Q Now, when you say clean toilet water, how 10 did you find out that clean toilet water had been 11 poured on her? 12 A Well, if you heard that someone poured 13 toilet water on someone, wouldn't you try and get the 14 details? 15 Q So did you try to get the details? 16 A Of course. 17 Q Who told you the details? 18 A I don't remember. 19 Q What details were you told? 20 A That they had scooped a little cup of 21 water and threw it at her. 22 Q That who had scooped the cup of toilet 23 water? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Did you ever punish the students who had Page 424 1 poured the clean toilet water on her? 2 A Okay, I told you yesterday how we do those 3 kind of things. When someone breaks a rule, which 4 definitely would be a broken rule, on respect, it's 5 very disrespectful, that they have the consequence 6 that goes with it. I don't remember what it was at 7 that time, but always with those consequences in a 8 matter that large, which is big to me, they would have 9 to fill out a responsibility packet and forfeit 10 something. 11 Q Do you remember anybody filling out a 12 responsibility packet for having poured toilet water 13 on Lindsey Kleeberger? 14 A I don't remember anybody having to do 15 that, but I'm sure it was done because that's our 16 procedure. 17 Q Do you recall anybody being asked to 18 apologize to her for having poured the toilet water on 19 her? 20 A I recall everyone apologizing, even if 21 they didn't pour the toilet water, because whoever was 22 in the room knew that they had done it. 23 Q You said that you had left for lunch. Is 24 it your understanding that the toilet water was poured 25 on her while you were out of the room? Page 425 1 A Yes, it is. 2 Q During this encounter, whether it was 3 before or after you left, do you recall anybody, 4 anybody, making physical contact with Lindsey 5 Kleeberger? 6 A Well, I wasn't there so no, I don't. 7 Q Were you there for part of it? 8 A Of them being rude to Lindsey? 9 Q Were you there for part of the discussion? 10 MR. FERGUSON: Well, she said she left the 11 room. 12 MR. TENNEY: Well, that implies that she 13 was there at the beginning. If she left, that means 14 she was there. 15 MR. FERGUSON: Right. 16 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So at any point when you 17 were there -- 18 A Well, it doesn't sound like it was a 19 discussion if during the short time I was gone they 20 went to the bathroom and got toilet water and threw it 21 on her. No, I don't know what was said. 22 Q How long -- I mean in terms of time, how 23 long were you actually in the room for? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q An hour? Two hours? Page 426 1 A Absolutely not. 2 Q It wasn't as long as one hour? 3 A No. I just said it was probably five or 4 10 minutes. 5 Q This total group session, I'm talking from 6 start to finish, the start of the discussion until the 7 discussion breaks up completely. 8 A During the time that I was involved with 9 the discussion that I don't remember how long it took, 10 no one had physical contact. 11 Q Were you ever told later, at any point, 12 that some student had made physical contact with 13 Lindsey during this discussion? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q You don't remember ever being told that 16 anybody had made physical contact with Lindsey 17 Kleeberger? 18 A No, I don't. 19 Q Do you recall ever being told that Lindsey 20 had been compelled to stand in the middle of the room 21 and swivel her arms around? 22 A Absolutely not. 23 Q Do you recall ever being told or having 24 seen anybody throw food at Lindsey during this 25 discussion? Page 427 1 A Absolutely not. 2 Q Okay. How did this -- do you recall 3 anybody having referred to Lindsey at any point during 4 this discussion by any racial epithets? I can be more 5 specific if you need. 6 A No. 7 Q When you left for lunch, how long were you 8 gone for? 9 A I told you I don't remember, but not long. 10 Q And you said that you and Mark left for 11 lunch; is that right? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. Who left to go get lunch? 14 A I went to make the lunch. I'm not sure 15 where Mark was. 16 Q Do you recall if there were any adults in 17 the room at that time? 18 A I don't remember. 19 Q Now, you said that the students were mad 20 at her; is that right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Were you in any way concerned about 23 leaving Lindsey in a room with students that were mad 24 at her? 25 A No. Page 428 1 Q Why weren't you concerned? 2 A Well, they sleep in rooms together, they 3 spend a lot of time together, they go to the library 4 together. You know, they're not babies. 5 Q So you came back after you had fixed 6 lunch, what happened at that point? 7 A We talked about the toilet water. 8 Q Okay. 9 A And we had to leave. We were late. 10 Q Late for what? 11 A To get to The Savior of the World. We had 12 tickets. 13 Q And is The Savior of the World -- do I 14 understand that's a performance that's in Salt Lake 15 City? 16 A Yes, at the conference center. 17 Q At the conference center. What time does 18 that performance start? 19 A I believe 7:00, but they have a special 20 thing that they do for my group of kids. They take 21 them either an hour or two hours early and show them 22 how the organ can go down and they meet the cast and 23 they give them refreshments. It's really awesome and 24 it's something very special that I like the kids to go 25 to. Page 429 1 Q Approximately what time does that start? 2 A I have no idea. I mean, I don't remember. 3 Q So just about an hour or two before the 4 performance of The Savior of the World? 5 A I would say two. We would usually get 6 dinner or something on the way. 7 Q How far of a drive is it from Nephi to 8 Salt Lake? 9 A An hour. 10 MR. FERGUSON: It's more like two and a 11 half or three. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: An hour and a half. 13 MR. SUDWEEKS: An hour and a half. 14 THE WITNESS: I don't drive, Mark does. 15 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. So did they eat 16 lunch at The Whitmore mansion before you left for The 17 Savior of the World? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Does this help refresh your recollection 20 at all what time this group happened? 21 A No. 22 Q Where did you eat dinner that night? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q At any point on that day did you take the 25 students to a dinner that was held at Seven Peaks in Page 430 1 Provo? 2 A No. 3 Q At any point following this group 4 discussion, was Lindsey -- 5 A A dinner at Seven Peaks in the wintertime? 6 I doubt it. 7 Q Okay. At any point in this discussion do 8 you remember Lindsey being left alone in the bus while 9 the other students went in to eat dinner somewhere? 10 A I don't remember details, but I don't like 11 the kids to miss that one, so I -- I don't remember. 12 Q Do you remember any students ever being 13 left on a bus while other students ate as a punishment 14 for any rule violation? 15 A Oh, yes. 16 Q Who? 17 A I don't remember. It was one of the 18 consequences. 19 Q Of not being allowed to eat with the other 20 students? 21 A Yeah, usually I'm the one that had to stay 22 with them in the bus. 23 Q And would they be able to eat later? 24 A No, we would take peanut butter sandwiches 25 for them. Page 431 1 Q Do you recall that happening to Lindsey? 2 A No. I don't know. 3 Q Lindsey alleges that, following this 4 discussion, you had her spend the entirety of the bus 5 drive north in the bathroom of the bus. Does that 6 sound like anything you remember ever happening? 7 A The only thing I remember about that is if 8 the other kids were apt to put the other kids in 9 danger or if they were physical or if they needed to 10 be separated, yes, we've done that before. 11 Q You've made kids spend a bus ride in the 12 bathroom? 13 A The bathroom is quite the luxury. It's 14 set better than sitting in your own seat. There's a 15 cushion we put on the toilet and they have a view out 16 the window. 17 Q There's a window in the bathroom? 18 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 19 Q Is it a clear window or is it a. 20 A It's tinted. It's a nice bathroom. It's 21 a Setra bus. 22 Q What kind of bus is it? 23 A A Setra. It's like a Trevose. It's like 24 first class. 25 Q Okay. How big, approximately, is this Page 432 1 bathroom? 2 A I have no idea, but it's big enough that 3 it's comfortable. 4 Q And so what's the longest bus ride you 5 ever remember a student being asked to -- 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Was a student ever asked to spend a bus 8 ride out of state in the bathroom? 9 A If they wanted not to be in there and 10 asked, then I would probably make other arrangements. 11 Q Do you recall ever telling a student that 12 they could not come out of the bathroom? 13 A No, I don't. 14 Q Do you recall a student ever being asked 15 to sit on the floor of the bus for a bus ride as 16 punishment for a rule violation? 17 A No, I don't remember. 18 Q Let's go back to Lindsey. Do you recall 19 Lindsey ever being asked to spend a bus ride in the 20 bathroom of the bus? 21 A I don't remember. 22 Q Lindsey alleges that on this particular 23 occasion following the group discussion of her having 24 stolen money, that not only was she required to spend 25 the drive north in the bathroom, but that students Page 433 1 were allowed to spray down the bathroom with an 2 aerosol can of some sort. She seemed to think it was 3 Lysol. Does that sound like anything you remember 4 ever happening? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q If such a thing had happened and you had 7 been made aware of it, would you have punished the 8 students who had sprayed down the bathroom with Lysol? 9 A I told you in my last statement that 10 respect is a huge thing at The Whitmore Academy and if 11 it's a disrespectful thing I absolutely, positively 12 would not allow it. 13 Q Did Lindsey Kleeberger ever try running 14 away from the program? 15 A She didn't try. She did. 16 Q Okay. Tell me about that. Well, let me 17 ask a more specific question first. How long after 18 this group discussion on her honesty did she run away? 19 A I believe she ran away before this. 20 Q Before she stole the money? 21 A I believe. 22 Q Okay. When do you remember her running 23 away? 24 A I don't. 25 Q You don't remember when she ran away? Page 434 1 A No, I don't remember when. 2 Q What do you remember about her running 3 away? 4 A That about 10 minutes after she left, one 5 of the students told us that Lindsey had stole the 6 Suburban and left. She had taken the keys out of the 7 office and she was gone. 8 Q And what did you do at that point? 9 A Called the police and went looking for 10 her. 11 Q Did you find her? 12 A No. She had our Suburban. 13 Q Do you have any knowledge about how far 14 she got? 15 A She got to Ohio. 16 Q And how did you first learn that she had 17 gotten to Ohio? 18 A She called her parents who called us and 19 demanded that someone go get her to return her home. 20 Q Did her parents -- were you a party to 21 that conversation with her parents? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Can you confirm or deny that you were a 24 party to that conversation? 25 A The only thing I know is that Todd handled Page 435 1 most of it. 2 Q So if Lindsey's parents say that you were 3 a party to that conversation, can you confirm or deny 4 that statement? 5 A I would only say I don't remember. 6 Q Okay. So somebody ends up talking to 7 Lindsey's parents and Lindsey's parents requested that 8 you send somebody out to get her; is that your 9 testimony? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you sent Todd Powers; is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Why did you -- 14 A They actually -- I believe, and I'm not 15 sure, that they requested Todd, the therapist, that 16 they would pay for his ticket if he would fly out 17 there and get her. 18 Q And is that what happened? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Todd brought her back; is that right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Lindsey got back to the program. What 23 happened to her after she got back? 24 A She walked in pretty late, I remember 25 this, and she sat down. In the mansion, in the foyer, Page 436 1 there's a couch. And in her smart-alecky little way, 2 which all the kids were there, she pulls out her three 3 bags of McDonald's foods and acted like she just came 4 back from a joy trip and you guys are all losers. 5 Q Is that what she said, "You guys are all 6 losers"? 7 A Yeah. 8 Q Did she use -- 9 A No. No. Those were not the words, but 10 that's the impression she gave all of them. So she 11 struck a bad chord in them. 12 Q Okay. Do you have a group on that? 13 A No, we had group when her parents flew out 14 and wanted to meet with all the other kids. 15 Q How soon after she had run away did her 16 parents fly out? 17 A It was either that night or very close. 18 Q So you had a group, then, with her 19 parents, Lindsey and all the other students? 20 A And Todd, the therapist. 21 Q And Todd, the therapist. Tell me what you 22 remember about that group. 23 A It was a long group. They wanted to know 24 what was going on. 25 Q Going on about what? Page 437 1 A They wanted to have a feeling of why 2 Lindsey ran away and if any of the things that she was 3 telling them were true. 4 Q Do you have any understanding of what 5 things she was telling them? 6 A I believe that when she got to the motel 7 in Ohio, she tried to convince her parents that she 8 wanted to go back to her old high school and that she 9 really liked us and she liked the program, but the 10 other kids were mean to her and she didn't want to 11 stay. 12 Q Now, do I understand correctly that 13 Lindsey had the authority to withdraw herself, if she 14 wanted to, from the program? 15 A I don't know where you're getting that 16 impression. 17 Q My understanding was that was what you 18 told me earlier. 19 A Well, that's where, if you'll remember, 20 you and I had a conflict of understanding. 21 Q Okay. Let me just ask it directly. Did 22 Lindsey have the authority to withdraw herself from 23 the program? 24 A On paper, no. 25 Q She did not have the authority? Page 438 1 A On paper, no. Her parents were her 2 guardians and when you have a guardian, they are the 3 ones who have authority to do that sort of thing. 4 Q Okay. So how long did this group last? 5 A Over two hours. 6 Q And what was the final result of this 7 group? 8 A Her parents apologized to the kids. They 9 said Lindsey was very spoiled, she's an only child, 10 she usually gets what she wants, and that's why they 11 put her where they did, that they were impressed with 12 all of the kids, that they were impressed with the 13 program, that Mark and I had their total support and 14 they wanted this year to help Lindsey take 15 accountability of the lies and the things that she 16 had -- the habits that she had created. 17 Q How long did Lindsey stay at your program 18 after that? 19 A Let me think. I couldn't tell you 20 exactly, but I think it was in the spring. Her 21 parents wanted her to come home for her grandmother's 22 funeral. She didn't want to go unless Laeysa, my 23 daughter, would go with her because she was worried 24 that she would fall back into her manipulation and beg 25 her parents to stay. My daughter couldn't go and she Page 439 1 ended up staying. 2 Q Lindsey -- let me make sure I've got this 3 right. Lindsey was worried that if she, Lindsey, went 4 back to Ohio that she would then convince somebody to 5 let her stay; is that right? 6 A Yes, she wanted to have a group discussion 7 about it. 8 Q She wanted to have a group discussion 9 about what? 10 A About what she would naturally probably do 11 and how much she had changed and she wanted to fulfill 12 her year. And so she confided with the group that she 13 probably would try to convince her parents to stay and 14 that she wanted Laeysa to go home with her because she 15 knew she would probably come back then. 16 Q And so she ends up going black to Ohio and 17 she doesn't come back to The Whitmore; is that right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Have you had any contact with Lindsey 20 Kleeberger since then? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What contact? 23 A She's sent e-mails just telling us how 24 much she missed everybody and how she didn't want to 25 have to stay, but her grandmother was very sick, and Page 440 1 how much she appreciated everything that she had been 2 through and how much she has grown and changed and 3 then she has stayed in touch with my own daughter up 4 until Joyce Harris got ahold of her. 5 Q Joyce Harris got ahold of your daughter or 6 Lindsey? 7 A Lindsey. 8 Q How do you know that Joyce Harris got 9 ahold of Lindsey? 10 A She told my daughter. 11 Q Who told your daughter? 12 A Lindsey. 13 Q What did she tell your daughter? 14 A I even think I have the e-mail. That 15 they've been trying to get her to get into this 16 lawsuit, but that there was no way she would ever 17 testify against us. 18 Q Do you remember when that e-mail was sent? 19 A Like I said, it was just weeks before this 20 whole lawsuit thing ever happened. 21 Q Do you have a hard copy of that e-mail? 22 A Like I said, it's somewhere out there, but 23 I don't know where. 24 Q Okay. I'm going to ask that you not take 25 any steps to destroy, hide, or alter that e-mail and Page 441 1 we'll probably file -- 2 A I would definitely not want to. I would 3 like to find it myself because it really makes me mad 4 at Joyce. 5 Q That would be good if you could and we 6 will probably be requesting it shortly. 7 Let's talk about just a few more questions 8 about Lindsey. While Lindsey was in your program were 9 you ever made aware of any instance in which Lindsey 10 physically assaulted any other students? 11 A No. 12 Q Were you made aware of any instance in 13 which any student made any physical contact with 14 Lindsey? 15 A Just from what I told you. 16 Q What did you tell me about? 17 A That they threw the dirty water on her. 18 Q Okay. Other than the dirty water, are you 19 aware of any other instance in which any student -- 20 A No, I don't believe that happened. 21 Q Are you aware of any instances in which 22 Lindsey was taken to the hospital while she was under 23 your care? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Tell me about those. Page 442 1 A Susan Likes is the one that would do this 2 thing with Lindsey and John Gledhill, who lived at the 3 mansion, was the director of the hospital at that 4 time. And she was very dramatic. 5 Q Lindsey was? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And she claimed to have taken a bottle of 9 aspirin, I think, and then it came out that she took 10 just a couple. 11 Q How did that come out, that she took a 12 couple? 13 A She admitted it. 14 Q To who? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q Where was she when she admitted this? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q Do you remember if she was in a group? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Do you remember ever holding a group on 21 her as a result of her having claimed to have taken 22 medications? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q Did Lindsey ever stay in the sheet room? 25 A No. Page 443 1 Q Did Lindsey ever stay in the Perry room? 2 A Yes. 3 Q How long did Lindsey stay in the Perry 4 room? 5 A I don't remember, but she stayed there 6 until she filled out her responsibility packets. And 7 it seems like I have a letter -- I had a letter, and I 8 might not be able to find it, where she thanks me for 9 that opportunity because she -- while she was in the 10 Perry room she wanted to work on her school and so for 11 her reports, for her English, she had read that 12 feelings book, you know, that I told you about and she 13 had done a summary on each chapter and it was really 14 good for her and she did an excellent job. I even 15 think I might have those reports, I'm not sure, but 16 I'll look for you. 17 Q Okay. Please look and please don't take 18 any steps to alter, destroy, or hide those reports. 19 A Of course, I won't. But I don't believe 20 she was there longer than two or three days. 21 Q Lindsey claims she was there for a month. 22 A Absolutely not. 23 Q Could it have been as long as three weeks? 24 A Absolutely not. 25 Q Could it have been as long as two weeks? Page 444 1 A Absolutely. 2 Q So while she was there for the two or 3 three days was the ladder removed? 4 A Yes, it was. 5 Q Just for two or three days? 6 A It was removed until she had to go to the 7 bathroom. 8 Q Right. But other than when she needed to 9 come down to go to the bathroom, the ladder was 10 removed; is that right? 11 A Yes, but that was because she threatened 12 to run away again. 13 Q Where did she eat while she was up on that 14 bed? 15 A Up in the shelf room. You haven't seen 16 it -- well, you did. 17 Q I have seen it, yes. 18 A It's big enough and there's a little desk. 19 Q There's a desk on top of the bunk? 20 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 21 Q Who brought her her food while she was up 22 there? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q Tell me every incident that you can 25 remember in which Lindsey was dishonest. Page 445 1 A I don't remember incidents, but I remember 2 she was just a dishonest person. She's a habitual 3 liar. 4 Q Do you remember any lies she ever told? 5 A No, I don't remember which lies she told, 6 but she lied a lot. 7 Q Do you remember any lies that she told? 8 A I could think and maybe I could come up 9 with something. 10 Q Please do. Please come up with anything 11 you can think of where she lied. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you talking aside from 13 stealing the money? 14 MR. TENNEY: Aside from allegedly stealing 15 the money. 16 MR. FERGUSON: And the car. 17 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) And taking the car. Tell 18 me every other incident in which you're aware of where 19 Lindsey told a lie. 20 A She lied a lot about what she was doing on 21 her computer. 22 Q Tell me about those lies. 23 A She was instant messaging her boyfriend a 24 lot. 25 Q Did somebody catch her? Page 446 1 A Yeah. Well, we have a computer check. We 2 had a computer technician who worked for us. 3 Q So at some point she lied about it; is 4 that right? 5 A At many points. 6 Q Tell me about those points. 7 A I can't. That's just the fact. 8 Q Do you remember her lying to you about 9 that, telling you that she had not communicated with 10 her boyfriend? 11 A Yes. 12 Q When? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Were these personal conversations, 15 one-on-one? 16 A No, it was usually during computer checks. 17 Q So, now, in order to have lied about it, 18 at some point she would have had to have told you she 19 was not communicating with her boyfriend, right? 20 A Which would be during the computer checks. 21 Q Okay. So just to make sure I'm 22 understanding what you're saying happened, you're 23 saying that somebody, during the computer checks, 24 asked her if she had communicated with her boyfriend 25 and she said no -- Page 447 1 A No. 2 Q -- and then somebody later found out that 3 she had, is that what happened? 4 A Okay. It's an honor system with the 5 computers. It's a privilege to have a computer that 6 has Internet. It's called trust and trustworthiness 7 and we try to teach the kids to become trustworthy. 8 They complain because nobody trusts them. Well, 9 everybody at the Whitmore trusts them, but they have 10 to become trustworthy to receive these kind of 11 privileges. 12 As far as Lindsey was concerned. She 13 wanted to graduate that year and in order to do that 14 you need your computer, especially online, because 15 there's a lot of courses. In fact, Lindsey did take 16 some other online courses. I just remembered that. 17 Q Were they through BYU or who were they 18 through? 19 A Through the Utah State Internet high 20 school. 21 Q Okay. 22 A And she lied all the time about what she 23 was doing on the Internet. 24 Q Who did she tell that she was not 25 communicating with her boyfriend? Page 448 1 A I don't remember. 2 Q But you do remember that she told somebody 3 she was not communicating with her boyfriend? 4 A Yes, I do. 5 Q Who was it that found out that she had -- 6 A The computer tech. I told you that. 7 Q The computer tech, okay. Any other 8 instances you can think of in which she was dishonest, 9 other than those we've already talked about? 10 A Well, about taking a bottle of aspirin and 11 she didn't. 12 Q Okay. We've talked about the aspirin. 13 We've talked about the car. We've talked about the 14 money. 15 A She lied to the social services, the DCFS 16 people in the hospital that she was being abused. 17 Q What's your understanding of what she told 18 them? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Did they ever talk to you about her 21 allegations? 22 A Yes, they did. 23 Q And who was it that was talking to you? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q Was it somebody based out of Nephi or Page 449 1 somebody based out of Salt Lake? 2 MR. FERGUSON: Or somewhere else? 3 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Or somewhere else? 4 A Somewhere else. 5 Q Okay. What do you remember about that 6 conversation? 7 A Not a lot. Just the impression was she 8 was very dramatic. I got most of my impression from 9 John Gledhill, who ran the hospital, who -- it was a 10 joke at the hospital how Lindsey was laying in her bed 11 watching TV, ordering pop, had to stay there for three 12 days because of being poisoned by all the aspirin she 13 took. 14 Q Did he tell you that that was a joke in 15 the hospital? 16 A No, he didn't say that in those words. 17 Q Whose words were those? 18 A They were no words from anybody. It was 19 the impression that he gave, here she was laying in 20 her bed having the life of Riley when everybody else 21 was on schedule doing what they needed to do with 22 their schoolwork, et cetera, et cetera. 23 MR. TENNEY: Let's go off the record for a 24 minute. 25 (Discussion off the record.) Page 450 1 (A break was taken from 11:33 a.m. to 2 11:58 a.m.) 3 (Mr. Parkinson leaves the deposition.) 4 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) We're back from our 5 break. Let's talk about Erica Cira. Erica Cira was a 6 student of yours; is that right? 7 A That's right. 8 Q Do you remember when she was there? 9 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. 10 Q When was she there? 11 A I don't remember the dates. 12 Q Okay. Who was her mother, do you remember 13 her name? 14 A Her mother. 15 Q Do you remember Mary Cira? Is that her 16 mother? 17 A Yes, I think so. 18 Q Do you remember having had any 19 communications with Mary Cira prior to Erica being 20 enrolled? 21 A No. 22 Q Any communications of any kind? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know how much Mary Cira paid you? 25 A No. Page 451 1 Q I'll represent to you that Mary has 2 alleged that they paid you approximately $25,000. Do 3 you have any basis to dispute that? 4 A No. 5 Q Were you given any medications for Erica 6 when Erica was admitted to your program? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know that for a fact, or is that 9 something somebody else would have handled? Do you 10 have any knowledge of what medication she was on? 11 A No. 12 Q So that's no, you don't have any 13 knowledge? 14 A No, I don't have any knowledge. 15 Q I apologize, my questions sometimes are a 16 little bit confusing. 17 Do you have any knowledge of whether she 18 was taking any pills while she was at your program? 19 A No. 20 Q Were you ever made aware that Erica Cira 21 had suffered from eating disorders? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q Do you have any memory of ever being told 24 that? 25 A I don't remember. Page 452 1 Q Let me be more specific -- 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. Do you have any knowledge -- did 4 you ever have any knowledge that Erica Cira had 5 suffered from bulimia? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q Did you ever encourage Erica Cira to use 8 diet pills while enrolled in your program? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you ever recall encouraging any 11 students to use diet pills while enrolled in your 12 program? 13 A No. 14 Q Erica was deposed in this case and she 15 testified that at one point you had encouraged her and 16 Casey and Jordan and Sarah and Camille and Hannah to 17 all take diet pills together. Do you have any memory 18 of that ever happening? 19 A Never. 20 Q Do you recall ever -- 21 A Let me correct that. 22 Q Please. 23 A I encouraged the kids to use herbal 24 supplements. 25 Q Which herbal supplements? Page 453 1 A Vitamin B mostly, different multivitamins. 2 Q And what was the purpose of these 3 supplements? 4 A A lot of times it helps with whatever -- 5 you know, if it's a chemical imbalance or if they feel 6 like they aren't in control of their appetites and 7 what they are craving. 8 Q Who do you remember ever giving such 9 herbal supplements to? 10 MR. FERGUSON: I think that misstates the 11 testimony. 12 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you recall giving 13 herbal supplements to any particular student? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you recall whether you ever gave herbal 16 supplements to Erica Cira? 17 A No. 18 Q You said that you encouraged students to 19 use herbal supplements to -- 20 A I never encouraged anyone. I shared my 21 knowledge of it. 22 Q Thank you. You said that you had shared 23 your knowledge regarding herbal supplements, at least 24 as far as they help students deal with chemical 25 imbalances you said. What chemical imbalances were Page 454 1 you talking about? 2 A What I mean by chemical imbalances would 3 be if they feel out of balance. 4 Q Out of balance how? 5 A If they feel they're craving certain 6 things that aren't really good for them. 7 Q When you say craving, are we talking about 8 food or are we talking about substances, are we 9 talking about craving behaviors? Craving what? 10 A Food, sex, drugs. Anything that isn't 11 helpful for them. 12 Q What herbal supplements are you aware of 13 that can help somebody combat their craving? 14 A I just believe in vitamins. 15 Q Okay. So if somebody comes to you and 16 says, I have a craving, what herbal supplement would 17 you recommend they -- 18 A I wouldn't know what you're talking about 19 because people don't come to me and say they have a 20 craving. 21 Q Okay. If you were discussing cravings 22 with somebody and they were to ask you if you were 23 aware of any herbal supplements that would help them 24 combat their cravings -- 25 A I can't answer that. That's not specific Page 455 1 enough. 2 Q Help me make it more specific. 3 A I can't make it more specifics because 4 it's a very personal thing. If I was to talk to 5 somebody about something like that, it would have to 6 be something that was either confidential or intimate. 7 Q Okay. So if a student came to you and 8 said that they had a craving for drugs and they wanted 9 to know if you knew of anything that would help them 10 combat that craving, what would you say? 11 A I can't answer that. I don't know. 12 Q Do you know of any herbal supplements that 13 would help combat a craving for drugs? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know of any supplements that would 16 help combat a craving for food? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you know of any herbal supplements that 19 would help combat a craving for sex or pornography? 20 A I really believe that this question is a 21 leading question and I would have to say no to 22 everything you're saying. 23 Q Okay. Do you recall ever using profanity 24 around Erica Cira? 25 A My name is Cheryl Sudweeks. My father is Page 456 1 Lennis Rasmussen. In my family I grew up never 2 hearing a cuss word. I learned cussing when I came to 3 Utah. It's not a habit that I have of using profanity 4 and I believe that my life is my teaching and to every 5 part of my being I do not use foul language. 6 Q So the answer to that question was a no? 7 A The answer to that question is exactly 8 what I just told you. 9 Q How about if I ask you for a yes or no, 10 just to be clear? 11 A Then I would have to say no. 12 Q Okay. Thank you. I'm going to go ahead 13 and ask the questions again and you can feel free to 14 respond how you want. 15 Do you recall ever referring to Erica as a 16 nigger lover? 17 A Absolutely not. 18 Q Do you recall ever referring to Erica as a 19 slut? 20 A It's not my nature do that, just like I 21 said. 22 Q Okay, is that a yes or a no? 23 A That's a no. 24 Q Do you recall ever referring to Erica as a 25 dildo? Page 457 1 A Absolutely not. 2 Q Okay. I apologize for having to ask 3 these, but I just need to clear some things up for the 4 record. Do you recall -- 5 A Well, I take this very offensively, just 6 for the record. 7 Q Okay. That's fine. Do you recall ever 8 referring to Erica as a bitch? 9 A No. 10 Q Do you recall ever referring to Erica as a 11 pussy? 12 A No. 13 Q Okay. We're off that subject. Do you 14 recall ever being made aware of any instance in which 15 Erica was physically assaulted by any other student? 16 A No. 17 Q Do you recall any instance in which Erica 18 physically assaulted another student? 19 A She was a very physical person, but I 20 cannot recall any instances. 21 Q In what way was she a physical person? 22 A She had a very short fuse and she was a 23 larger person who liked to touch. 24 Q Touch how? 25 A Hit. Page 458 1 Q She liked to hit. Do you remember her 2 hitting anybody? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who? 5 A In Canada there was a native man who came 6 on our property and she tried to beat him up. 7 Q Who was this native man? 8 A Someone who lived in the Chilcotin. 9 Q When you say native man are you talking 10 about a native Canadian or an Indian of some sort? 11 A A native Canada Indian. They call them 12 First Nations. 13 Q Do you know his name? 14 A No, I do not know his name. 15 Q You call them what, First Nations? 16 A First Nations in Canada is what they call 17 them. 18 Q Is that a tribe name? 19 A No. Instead of saying Indian, which is 20 disrespectful, they called them First Nations people. 21 MR. FERGUSON: We say Native Americans. 22 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) That makes sense. So 23 when you were in Canada with Erica, you recall her 24 trying to hit a First Nations member? 25 A Yes, because he was disrespecting me. Page 459 1 Q What was he doing to you? 2 A I don't recall. 3 Q So she was defending you? 4 A Yes, she was. 5 Q And did she actually make contact with 6 him? 7 A I believe. 8 Q Were you there? 9 A Yes, I was there and she told him that she 10 loved me and that no one was ever going to talk to the 11 person that she loved as much as me and get away with 12 it. 13 Q So what did she do? 14 A She tried to go after him. 15 Q And did somebody stop her? 16 A Like I said to you before, that is not 17 something that we let happen when kids live with us. 18 Whether they hate that person or not, it is against 19 our rules to disrespect people, especially physically 20 and mentally and verbally. 21 Q So how would you prevent that from 22 happening? 23 A Well, when you have one First Nations 24 person versus 20 people, it's not very hard not to. 25 Q Oh, so were other students there who were Page 460 1 also going -- 2 A Yes, there were. 3 Q -- to physically assault him as well? 4 A No, they were watching Erica do her thing. 5 Q Okay. So my question is very specific. 6 You said that she came after him, but then you said 7 that you don't remember her making physical contact. 8 So what stopped her from making physical contact? 9 A I don't remember what exactly it was, but 10 it was stopped. 11 Q You don't remember whether she stopped 12 herself or whether you stopped her? 13 A No, she didn't stop herself. 14 Q So somebody stopped her? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who? 17 A I don't remember. And I don't remember 18 whether it was verbally or if they held her back. 19 Q Okay. So we've got the incident in Canada 20 in which she started to start something with a native 21 man. Can you think of any other incidents in which 22 she was physically aggressive with anybody else? 23 A Yes, I can. 24 Q Tell me about them. 25 A She talked about it quite often in group, Page 461 1 how she would physically be aggressive with her family 2 members and her mother, who she said she hated 3 extremely, lots and -- 4 Q Now my question -- just to cut you off 5 there, my question wasn't about stuff that happened 6 prior to Whitmore. 7 A Well, that was not your question. You 8 said do I ever remember her being physically 9 aggressive. 10 Q With anybody while at The Whitmore. 11 A No, you didn't. 12 Q Okay. I apologize, then, for the 13 unclarity. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Let me re-ask the question. Do you recall 16 any incident in which Erica was physically aggressive 17 towards anyone while she was at The Whitmore? 18 A I remember that she was, but I do not 19 recall specific incidents. 20 Q Do you recall who she was physically 21 aggressive towards? 22 A I do not recall specific incidents or 23 people. 24 Q Do you remember any punishments that she 25 received as a result of her physical aggression? Page 462 1 A I told you before we do not call them 2 punishments. They're consequences and, yes, she would 3 recall -- she would receive the consequences that she 4 was part of making up and the ones at The Whitmore, 5 which would include a responsibility packet and 6 forfeiting some kind of recreational activity. 7 Q And just to be clear, the responsibility 8 packet we're talking about is the document that was 9 marked as Exhibit No. 29? 10 A Exactly. 11 Q And so your testimony is that she filled 12 out responsibility packets as a result of her physical 13 aggression? 14 A I'm telling you that's the normal 15 procedure. 16 Q Do you recall Erica Cira ever filling out 17 a responsibility packet? 18 A I do not have a good enough memory to 19 recall when, what, where, or if, but that is the 20 normal procedure. 21 Q What would justify a departure from the 22 normal procedure? 23 A That would be no justification. 24 Q So if it was the normal procedure, did it 25 happen all the time? Page 463 1 A That is the normal procedure. 2 Q Do you recall any incident in which a 3 responsibility packet was not filled out following an 4 instance of physical violence? 5 A No, I don't recall, but I can imagine 6 maybe if we were in the middle of sacrament meeting or 7 we were at some concert or somewhere that it wasn't 8 convenient, it could have been overlooked. 9 Q How was Erica educated while she was under 10 your care? 11 A I don't recall at the moment, but I 12 believe she was doing our -- The Whitmore Academy 13 school. 14 Q Your own school? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Do you recall ever providing her with a 17 transcript? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Do you recall ever being told that Erica 20 had been threatened by another student? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Did -- 23 A I don't believe so though. 24 Q Okay. Thank you. Did Erica finish out 25 her term, her yearlong... Page 464 1 A No, she did not. 2 Q How early did she leave? How early into 3 her year did she leave? 4 A I couldn't tell you that. 5 Q Can you give me a ballpark? 6 A I couldn't even do that. 7 Q Do you remember any of the circumstances 8 that led to her leaving? 9 A Yes. Number one, her sister got pregnant 10 and had a little baby. She really missed being there 11 for that. Number two, she had a boyfriend and she 12 really missed him. Number three, she was starting to 13 fall back into her manipulation and her lying and the 14 kids recognized that and she didn't like being called 15 on -- or having constructive criticism. Number four, 16 the man named David Kozlowski who had worked at The 17 Whitmore for maybe a couple of weeks, who was very 18 unskilled with the sort of program that we ran, fell 19 into her manipulation and they had a lot of secrets 20 going on which involved her parents. And number 21 four -- 22 Q That was number four, so you're on number 23 five. 24 A Oh. Number five, when DCFS came and took 25 all of the students, which was between 30 and 40, to Page 465 1 interrogate them and gave each and every one of them 2 the opportunity to go home at that time, and actually 3 enticed them to, every one of those students walked 4 back through that door of the mansion around 2:00 in 5 the morning, or maybe earlier, I'm not sure on the 6 time, with the decision that they had made to stay, 7 except for Erica, who was given free range to do what 8 she wanted. 9 Q Erica and Joey? 10 A No, Joey was already gone. 11 Q All right. Let's talk through those 12 reasons. You said her sister was pregnant. I don't 13 really need to ask you about that. 14 A Or she had had a baby. Pregnant and/or 15 had a baby. 16 Q Right. Number two was that Erica missed 17 her boyfriend. How do you know about that? 18 A She talked about him a lot. 19 Q And how do you know that that was a reason 20 that she left? 21 A She had mentioned to the group that that 22 was one of the reasons she would want to go home. 23 Q Did you have a group about Erica wanting 24 to go home? 25 A No, we talked a lot, though, as a group. Page 466 1 We were very close. 2 Q So when you were in normal group 3 discussions, she mentioned during the course of these 4 discussions that she missed her boyfriend and wanted 5 to go home? 6 A More than just normal group discussions. 7 She talked about it with her roommates and 8 different -- 9 Q Who were her roommates? 10 A I don't remember. 11 Q But you do remember that her roommates -- 12 A Had mentioned it, yes. 13 Q You just don't remember who they were? 14 A They were worried about her. 15 Q You don't remember who those are? 16 A Krissy was one. 17 Q Krissy Dunn? 18 A Yes, and so was Tori. 19 Q Tori Degarmo? 20 A Uh-huh (affirmative). You have a very 21 good memory. 22 Q You talked about -- reason number three 23 you gave was her manipulation and her lying. What do 24 you mean by that? 25 A What was the full sentence on that? Page 467 1 Q Well, the question, as I recall having 2 asked it, was -- 3 A Well, what does she have written down. 4 Q -- why she left early and then you said 5 number three was the manipulation and lying. We could 6 have her read it back if that will help you. 7 A That would help me a lot. 8 Q Okay. 9 MS. SHAPIRO: I believe it was David 10 Kozlowski who had fallen into her manipulation. 11 MR. TENNEY: Well, that was number four. 12 MR. FERGUSON: She didn't like being 13 criticized by the group because she was lying and 14 manipulating. 15 MR. TENNEY: Does that refresh your 16 memory? 17 THE WITNESS: That's the complete answer. 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Tell me about 19 Erica manipulating and lying to people. What memory 20 do you have of Erica manipulating people or lying to 21 people? 22 A There's a lot of thing I really don't feel 23 comfortable with talking about because of 24 confidentiality things. 25 Q Well, Ms. Sudweeks, I'm her attorney and Page 468 1 we are in a closed setting right now and she has 2 authorized me to ask whatever I want to ask and you're 3 under oath. So I'm going to ask you if you can tell 4 me anything that you can remember about Erica Cira 5 lying or manipulating people. 6 A Okay. 7 MR. FERGUSON: Let me give you this 8 instruction, if I can, Cheryl. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 MR. FERGUSON: You've obviously gained a 11 lot of information in confidential discussions with 12 students over the years. Any confidential information 13 you obtained from any of the plaintiffs in this case, 14 including Erica, any confidentiality has been waived 15 as a matter of law, and so you should answer any 16 questions about discussions you had, whether they 17 involved confidentiality or not, with the plaintiffs, 18 Erica, Joey, whoever. 19 That does not necessarily hold for other 20 students, but you're being asked about Erica so you 21 have no obligation to keep communications that were 22 confidential, confidential any longer. In fact, you 23 have an obligation to share what you remember. 24 Is that clear enough? 25 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh (affirmative). Page 469 1 I don't know how I can explain this, but 2 I'll do my best. As a friend and a person who really 3 loved Erica, and from my experience, Erica had huge 4 abandonment and attachment issues and she -- in cases 5 like that, from my experience, when a child is doing 6 well or they're moving ahead and they can see they're 7 making progress, which she definitely was, they 8 self-sabotage themselves and they'll usually fall back 9 on the habits that help them survive. 10 And for Erica it was -- I think, I'm not 11 sure because I don't read the intake forms, but I 12 believe that's one of the main reasons her parents 13 sent her to us. She's a very good manipulator, to the 14 point where she had manipulated herself and was in a 15 lot of denial. And the kids would not validate those 16 feelings that she was using to justify her actions and 17 the only person she could get to do that was a man 18 named David Kozlowski, and he fed into these feelings 19 which made her out of control. 20 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm going to ask you a 21 series of questions about David Kozlowski in just a 22 minute. Other than Dave Kozlowski, I want you to tell 23 me every specific incident that you remember in which 24 Erica lied to anybody. 25 A Okay. That I can't do. Page 470 1 Q Why? 2 A Because I don't remember. 3 Q Okay. Tell me every specific incident 4 that you remember in which you felt that Erica was 5 being manipulative. And I'm asking for specific 6 incidents where she did something and you thought, 7 that's manipulative, or you heard about something she 8 had done and you thought, that's manipulative? 9 A I don't remember. 10 Q Okay. Let's talk about Dave Kozlowski. 11 In what way was Erica manipulating Dave Kozlowski, 12 according to your understanding? 13 A She was spending extra long private time 14 with him, to the point where the other students were 15 worried that maybe they had something going on. 16 Q Something romantic? 17 A Well, it was hard to say what they were 18 thinking, but they were concerned about the amount of 19 time she was spending. 20 Q Did anybody ever tell you that they 21 thought that Erica Cira and David Kozlowski were 22 having a romantic relationship? 23 A It was just kind of a common feeling that 24 was going on. 25 Q Okay. Now, my question was did anybody Page 471 1 ever tell you? 2 A I told you I don't know. I don't 3 remember. 4 Q Well, this is a yes or no question and I'm 5 going to ask you to give me a yes or no on this one. 6 Did anybody ever tell you -- 7 A No. 8 Q Okay. Thank you. Well, let me ask the 9 question just so we're clear on the record. Did 10 anybody tell you that they thought that Dave Kozlowski 11 and Erica Cira had a romantic relationship? 12 A They never told me, but they would joke 13 about it. 14 Q Who joked about it? 15 A As a group it was just a common thing. 16 Q Who do you remember joking about it? 17 A I don't remember. 18 Q When do you remember anybody joking about 19 it? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q What jokes do you remember being told 22 about it? 23 A Just what I said. 24 Q You said that there were secrets going on 25 between Dave and Erica. What secrets were going on? Page 472 1 A I couldn't tell you because they were 2 secrets. 3 Q Were you privy to those secrets? 4 A No, I was not. 5 Q What was Dave's role again there? 6 A I'm not sure. 7 Q You stated yesterday, correct me if I'm 8 wrong, but that he was interning under Tim Lowe; is 9 that right? 10 A That was one of them. 11 Q What other roles did he have? 12 A When David Kozlowski applied to work at 13 The Whitmore we did not have a need for him, but his 14 father was a man that we saw at Costco on a weekly 15 basis and he asked us, over a period of two years, if 16 we could possibly hire his son. 17 Q Did his father work at Costco? 18 A Uh-huh (affirmative). And he liked the 19 kids. He was impressed with our program. 20 Q What did his father do at Costco? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Was he a checker? 23 A I don't know. I just told you, I don't 24 know what his dad did. But he saw the kids and when 25 he would see the kids, he would always tell us what a Page 473 1 group of pleasant kids they were and how impressed he 2 was with our program over the years. 3 Q So you took Dave on as an -- tell me 4 again. 5 A So David came out to see what the program 6 was about and he asked us -- he said, I'd do anything 7 to work at a place like this because the feeling is a 8 feeling I've never felt before. Those were the words 9 he said. 10 Q What qualifications did he have? 11 A I don't know. I'm not one who looks at 12 resumés. 13 Q Were you aware of any schooling he had? 14 A I wasn't aware, but I'm sure someone was. 15 Q Were you ever aware of any degree that he 16 was pursuing? 17 A No, I wasn't. 18 Q To this day, are you aware of any degrees 19 that he's pursued or received? 20 A To this day, I don't know much about David 21 Kozlowski. He didn't live with -- he didn't work with 22 us very long. 23 Q You did say yesterday that he was 24 interning under Tim Lowe. 25 A Yes, he was. Page 474 1 Q So what qualifications did somebody have 2 to have to intern under a therapist in your program? 3 A I don't know. Do you? 4 Q Well, no, but I didn't work there, which 5 is why I'm asking you the questions. 6 A I don't know either. I don't know. 7 Q Was he allowed to have private counseling 8 sessions with the students? 9 A Well, obviously, because it was requested 10 by Tim Lowe. 11 Q Can you think of anybody else, during the 12 time that you operated your programs, can you think of 13 anybody else, other than David Kozlowski or Tim Lowe 14 or Todd Powers who were authorized to have private 15 counseling sessions with students? 16 A Susan sometimes would. 17 Q Susan? 18 A If the kids asked. 19 Q Susan Likes? 20 A Likes, uh-huh (affirmative). She would 21 spend a lot of private time with the kids. 22 Q Now, you said yesterday there was a 23 distinction between counseling and therapy. Was what 24 David Kozlowski doing, was that therapy or was it 25 counseling? Page 475 1 A I couldn't tell you. 2 Q Did you ever have any knowledge of what 3 exactly he was doing with the students? 4 A No. 5 Q Let's talk about Joey Hamson. Joey was at 6 your program; is that right? 7 A Yeah, for a very, very short period of 8 time. 9 Q And Joey -- do you know Joey's parents' 10 names? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q I'll represent to you that Joey's parents 13 are Tim and Kristina Hamson. Does that sound -- 14 A Okay. Yes, that sounds familiar. 15 Q Okay. Do you recall, prior to Joey being 16 enrolled, having any communications with either of 17 Joey's parents? 18 A Never. 19 Q No communications? 20 A None. 21 Q No e-mails? 22 A No. 23 Q No phone calls? 24 A No. 25 Q No visits? Page 476 1 A No. 2 Q Do you recall ever sending them a mailer? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know if a mailer was ever sent to 5 them? 6 A No. 7 Q Is that no, you don't know, or is that no, 8 no mailer was ever sent to them? 9 A No, I don't know if a mailer was ever sent 10 to them. 11 Q Do you know how much the Hamsons paid you? 12 A No. 13 Q I'll represent to you the Hamsons say that 14 they paid you approximately $16,000. Do you have my 15 basis to dispute that amount? 16 A No. I know that my husband sent them 17 money back because they asked him to. 18 Q Do you know how much money he sent back to 19 them? 20 A I have no idea, but I believe it was quite 21 a large sum. 22 Q Prior to Joey being enrolled in your 23 program, were you ever made aware of any of his 24 particular medical conditions? 25 A Can you come again? Page 477 1 Q Prior to Joey being enrolled in your 2 program, were you ever made aware of any of his 3 medical conditions? 4 A Okay. You're going to have to say it 5 again because I'm not quite understanding your 6 question. 7 Q Okay. Prior to Joey coming to your 8 school, did anybody ever tell you any medical 9 conditions that Joey Hamson had? And just to be 10 perfectly clear, I'm going to ask you a follow-up 11 question about his psychological conditions. So I'm 12 going to distinguish these two. 13 A Joey is the only one who told me -- I 14 mean, our time together was so short, but Joey told me 15 at one point that he was going to hurt himself so he 16 could leave because the psychiatrist -- psychiatrists 17 that he had been to at numerous times in California 18 would take him in and give him the drugs that he 19 likes. 20 Q And which drugs were those that he liked, 21 do you know? 22 A I don't know, but he said they made him 23 feel really good. 24 Q My question was prior to Joey coming to 25 your program, did anybody ever tell you about any Page 478 1 physical medical condition that Joey Hamson had. That 2 was my question. Can you answer that question? 3 A Prior to Joey coming to the program I knew 4 nothing about Joey. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Joey showed up at Lake Powell. 7 Q All right. We'll go there in just a 8 second. Prior to Joey coming to your program, did 9 anybody ever tell you anything about his psychological 10 condition? 11 A I didn't even know Joey was coming to the 12 program until he got there. 13 Q Okay. Let's go ahead and talk about that. 14 You said that Joey arrived at your program while you 15 were at Lake Powell; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q I'll refer you to Exhibit No. 27. Can you 18 take a look at that? This is the trip log. Just so 19 we're clear about which trip we're talking about -- 20 you're looking at the employee log and I'm looking at 21 the trip log. 22 Which trip are we talking about? 23 A I couldn't tell you. I don't -- like I 24 said, my memory is bad. 25 Q Well, you've got a list in front of you. Page 479 1 Is it trip number seven? Is that the trip we're 2 talking about? 3 A I couldn't tell you. I don't even know 4 what year. Since this whole thing's happened, I 5 pretty much don't even know what today is. 6 Q Okay. Do you have any memory of what year 7 it was that Joey Hamson was at your program? 8 A No, I don't. I just said that. 9 Q If I were to tell you that Joey Hamson was 10 there in 2004, would you have any basis to confirm or 11 deny that? 12 A No. 13 Q But you do remember that you were at Lake 14 Powell when Joey came? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Do you remember the month? 17 A Probably October. 18 Q You said that you didn't know anything 19 about Joey Hamson until he got to Lake Powell; is that 20 right? 21 A That's right. 22 Q Let me try to make that as specific as 23 possible. Had anybody told you, prior to Joey showing 24 up on the beach, that a student named Joseph Hamson 25 was coming to your program? Page 480 1 A No. 2 Q Now, yesterday when we talked about the 3 admissions process for your program you indicated that 4 admissions decisions were made in a group and you said 5 that the group involved you and Mark and some other 6 people. Did you ever have a group admissions 7 discussion regarding Joey Hamson? 8 A No, we do not. And I believe, and I'm not 9 sure, but I believe yesterday when you asked me that 10 question I told you that was the normal procedure, but 11 there were times that other ways were taken. 12 Q That you did. So this is one of those 13 exceptions? 14 A Yes, it is. 15 Q So do you have any knowledge of how Joey 16 Hamson was admitted to your program without you 17 knowing about it? 18 A I do know that Joey Hamson was a referral 19 from Tori Degarmo, a student who had just graduated. 20 She lived by the Hamsons and they had called her 21 because they could not believe the changes that Tori 22 had made and would like -- wanted a recommendation, 23 because they had one son in prison and another -- I 24 think their -- 25 Q When you "they" had a son in prison, are Page 481 1 you talking about Tori's or Joey's family. 2 A Kristina and -- what's her husband's name? 3 Q Tim. 4 A Tim were having problems, that they had a 5 son that was in prison and that her husband had 6 problems with drugs, Tim Hansen -- or Hamson, whatever 7 his name is. This is what I was told. And that they 8 were losing their home, they had no money. It was a 9 feel-sorry-for-me case. We don't know what to do. 10 We're at the end of our ropes. He's so out of control 11 we're worried that he's going to hurt somebody. His 12 father wants to kill him. Just a really bad 13 situation, what do I do. 14 And if I remember right, Tori said she was 15 crying on the phone and she just told her how the 16 program had helped her so much. And I believe the 17 next step was taken, she called Tim Lowe. 18 Q Okay. Stop right there. I'm confused 19 now. Who was this conversation with? 20 A This conversation went on between Tori 21 Degarmo and Joey's mother. 22 Q And who later told you about this 23 conversation? 24 A Tori Degarmo and I got bits and pieces 25 from Joey's mother later on. Page 482 1 Q How far later on? 2 A When he did what he did. 3 Q Okay. So Tori Degarmo -- was it Tori 4 Degarmo or Tori Degarmo's mother? 5 A I believe it was Tori Degarmo. 6 Q Tori Degarmo talked to Joey's mother? 7 A I believe, I'm not quite sure. 8 Q And Joey's mother told him all these 9 things, this is a feel-sorry-for-me case, the father 10 wants to kill him, all that? 11 A Very desperate. 12 Q And then Tori contacted you and told you 13 about this conversation; is that right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And when did Tori contact you? Is this 16 before or after Joey enrolled? 17 A Tori actually came with Joey. She came 18 back to The Whitmore to work, and they came the same 19 day. 20 Q So do you know who made the decision to 21 admit Joey? 22 A Yes. Like I was going to tell you a 23 minute ago, the next process was she called Tim Lowe 24 to find out details and if we had any -- 25 Q "She" being Kristina? Page 483 1 A Kristina, to find out if we had any 2 scholarships, what they were going to do because they 3 didn't have any money, they had lost their home, her 4 husband was out of control because of the drugs that 5 he had taken, just huge issues. 6 And this decision to take Joey Hamson into 7 The Whitmore Academy was totally Tim Lowe's decision. 8 Q Did Tim Lowe have the authority to admit a 9 student on his own? 10 A Yes, he did. I told you before that the 11 critical therapist, according to Utah state law, 12 pretty much runs the program. 13 Q Well, as I understood what you told me 14 before, what you told me is that the therapist has the 15 ability to administer his therapy as he or she sees 16 fit. But in terms of your overarching program, The 17 Whitmore Academy, did Tim Lowe have the authority to 18 admit a student into The Whitmore Academy? 19 A I don't know, but that's what happened. 20 Q That's what happened here? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So you ratified his decision to let Joey 23 into the program? 24 A Well, obviously he didn't stay very long, 25 so it really didn't even give us time to consider it. Page 484 1 Q But putting that aside for a minute, Joey 2 showed up to the program and you accepted him to the 3 program; is that right? Putting aside the question of 4 when he left and the circumstances under which he 5 left, just the initial Joey shows up and thinks he's 6 here for the program -- 7 A I couldn't even answer that question 8 because I don't even know what contracts were signed. 9 I know nothing. 10 Q Okay. Can you think of any other students 11 who were admitted into your program by Tim Lowe? 12 A Joey and Zeta actually came at the same 13 time. 14 Q Okay. I'm talking about the entirety of 15 your time running this program. Can you think of any 16 other students that were admitted -- 17 A The entire -- 18 Q Yeah, who were admitted into the program 19 by Tim Lowe? 20 A The entirety of the program, the only 21 students I know of that Tim Lowe made these decisions 22 solely on were Zeta Harris and Joey Hamson. 23 Q Okay. So Joey showed up, you're at Lake 24 Powell; is that right? 25 A That's right. Page 485 1 Q At that point do you consider him to be 2 part of your program, yes or no? 3 A I would say no, taking all things into 4 consideration. 5 Q Why was he not part of your program? 6 A It was a surprise to me. I had no 7 communication, I didn't know what was going on. 8 Q After the Lake Powell trip -- and we'll 9 talk about Lake Powell in a minute, but I just want to 10 nail this down. After Lake Powell, did you bring him 11 back to The Whitmore mansion? 12 A Yes, we did. 13 Q Did he sleep at The Whitmore mansion? 14 A Yes, but that's not the question you asked 15 me 16 Q Well, that's the question I'm asking now. 17 Did he sleep at The Whitmore mansion? 18 A Yes, he did. 19 Q For how long? 20 A I couldn't tell you that. I don't know. 21 Q Did you attempt to provide him with 22 educational services? 23 A Yes, at that point I considered him part 24 of the program. 25 Q Okay. So at what point did you consider Page 486 1 him to be part of the program? 2 A After we knew that the contracts were 3 signed and he was there as part of The Whitmore 4 Academy. 5 Q So you have accepted -- just as a general 6 matter, you have accepted that at some point Joey 7 Hamson became part of your program? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q Okay. Let's go back to Lake Powell. You 10 said that you didn't know Joey was coming until he got 11 there; is that right? 12 A That's right. 13 Q Did you have any conversations with the 14 students, prior to Joey getting there, about how they 15 should treat any new students who were going to be 16 coming while you guys were at Lake Powell? 17 A No. 18 Q Was there -- where were you when Joey got 19 there? Were you on a boat? Were you on a beach? 20 What do you remember physically about the moment he 21 showed up? 22 A I don't remember. I don't remember. 23 Q Okay. How long were you at Lake Powell 24 with Joey Hamson being there? 25 A I don't remember that either, but it was a Page 487 1 very short period of time. 2 Q Were there any disciplinary problems 3 involving Joey while you were at Lake Powell on this 4 initial trip? 5 A There's always disciplinary problems with 6 most of the kids. 7 Q Okay. Were there any disciplinary 8 problems involving Joey while you were at this Lake 9 Powell trip? 10 A I'm sure there was, but I don't remember 11 which ones. 12 Q Do you remember any groups being held on 13 Joey while you were at this Lake Powell trip? 14 A Like I said before, groups were never 15 really held on one person. 16 Q Do you remember any discussions about Joey 17 having violated any rules while you were on this lake 18 trip? 19 A There were discussions about Joey, but I 20 don't remember what they were about. 21 Q Do you remember if those discussions were 22 about Joey having violated any rules? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q While Joey was with you at Lake Powell, 25 did you expect him to comply with your rules? Page 488 1 A I expect all the kids to comply with the 2 rules. 3 Q While Joey was with you on this Lake 4 Powell trip, did you expect him to comply with your 5 rules? 6 A I would have expected the same from Joey 7 as I would from the other kids. 8 Q Okay. Now, this is going to be a yes or 9 no question. I'm going to ask that you give me a yes 10 or no. 11 A Yes. 12 Q While Joey was with you on this initial 13 Lake Powell trip, did you expect that he would follow 14 your rules? 15 A Yes, I would have expected all the kids to 16 follow the rules. 17 Q Including Joey? 18 A Including Joey because he was there. 19 Q Okay. Do you know who it was that would 20 have communicated to him what your rules were? 21 A No, I'm not sure who let him know. 22 Probably Tim Lowe because when the kids come he goes 23 over the rules with them. 24 Q Was Tim on this Lake Powell trip? 25 A No, but Joey came straight to The Whitmore Page 489 1 and then to Lake Powell. 2 Q Joey has been deposed in this case and 3 Joey testified that upon his arrival at Lake Powell he 4 was assaulted by a group of students, physically 5 attacked. Do you remember Joey ever being physically 6 attacked by a group of students while you were on this 7 initial Lake Powell trip? 8 A No, I don't. 9 Q Joey has alleged that he was surrounded by 10 a group of students who kicked him. Do you ever 11 recall ever seeing Joey be surrounded by a group of 12 students and being kicked? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you recall him ever being surrounded by 15 a group of students? Leave aside the kicking part. 16 A Not in the term surrounded, but when we 17 had discussions we were in a circle. 18 Q Okay. How many students -- do you recall 19 any circles that Joey was a part of? 20 A Yes. 21 Q How big were these circles? 22 A It depended on how many people there were. 23 Q Was Joey on the outside or the inside of 24 these circles? 25 A I don't remember. Page 490 1 Q Do you recall Joey ever being on the 2 inside of a circle? 3 A I don't remember. 4 MR. FERGUSON: When you say inside, what 5 do you mean? 6 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you recall Joey ever 7 being in one place and having students surrounding him 8 in a circle? 9 A I don't remember. There was usually a 10 couple -- people are staggered. It's just basically a 11 circle with a bunch of people. 12 Q Did you ever kick Joey Hamson? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you ever kick him while you were at 15 Lake Powell? 16 A No. 17 Q So just to be clear, have you ever been 18 told that Joey was physically harmed while he was at 19 Lake Powell? 20 A When? 21 Q Have you ever been told that Joey was 22 physically harmed while he was at Lake Powell? 23 A I have been -- I've heard it in 24 discussions. 25 Q What discussions? Page 491 1 A Since this lawsuit happened. 2 Q Discussions with whom? 3 A I think our lawyers. 4 Q Okay. I don't want to know about any of 5 those discussions. Let me make this clear as a 6 general rule. I never want you to tell me what your 7 lawyers have told you or not told you, okay? 8 A Okay. 9 Q Other than your lawyers, have you -- 10 A Yes, I was. 11 Q Tell me about it. 12 A I couldn't give you specifics, but I 13 remember being told that. 14 Q By whom? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Was it by a student? 17 A No. 18 Q Was it while Joey was there or was it 19 after he left? 20 A After. 21 Q While you were on this Lake Powell trip, 22 the one where Joey came, was there a student who was 23 referred to as Boogs? B-o-o-g-s, Boogs, does that 24 nickname ring any bells for you? 25 A Boogers. Page 492 1 Q Boogers. Who was Boogers? 2 A Anthony. 3 Q Anthony what? What's his last name? 4 A I don't remember names like you do. 5 Anthony Hopkins. I don't remember Anthony's last 6 name. 7 Q Okay. But he -- 8 A But I called him Anthony. 9 Q But everybody else called him Boogers? 10 A Yeah. Yes. 11 Q Thank you. While you were on this trip 12 where Joey Hamson came down to Lake Powell, do you 13 recall Rob Porritz and Boogers ever getting in a 14 physical fight? 15 MS. SHAPIRO: With Joey? 16 MR. TENNEY: No, with each other. 17 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you recall ever being 18 told that those two had gotten in a fight? 19 A Yes, I do. 20 Q Okay. Tell me about that fight. 21 A Well, I told you before that Rob's a bully 22 and Rob and Boogers were like best friends, very, 23 very, very close. And we were all outside preparing 24 dinner and I turned around and Rob was on the ground 25 and so I ran over, asked what happened and Boogs Page 493 1 was -- Boogers was on the ground crying and he said, 2 I'm sorry. And I asked what happened and he said, I 3 hit him. And Rob said, that's my boy. He said, he 4 stuck up for himself. And I said, you know you're not 5 allowed to hit around here. So I sent Rob in the 6 houseboat and Anthony over to a seat. 7 Q Was Rob bleeding? 8 A I don't remember if he was bleeding. 9 Q Was he spitting up blood? 10 A I don't think so. I don't remember. 11 Q Did Rob have a seizure as a result of 12 being hit? 13 A No. 14 Q Joey Hamson comes with you back to the 15 mansion, right? 16 A A seizure? 17 Q Yeah, a seizure. Did he have a seizure? 18 A No, but that's just funny that you'd say 19 that. 20 Q Why is that funny? 21 A If he had a seizure wouldn't we kind of 22 take him to the hospital or something? 23 Q Would you take him to the hospital if he 24 had a seizure? 25 A Absolutely. Page 494 1 Q Okay. Thank you. Joey Hamson comes with 2 you back to The Whitmore mansion; is that right? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Joey Hamson has stated that within a few 5 weeks of being brought back to the mansion that he was 6 caught making unauthorized phone calls to his parents 7 from the house that you refer to as the arena house. 8 Do you recall Joey Hamson ever being caught making 9 unauthorized phone calls at all, from any house? 10 A Not from the arena house, but I know he 11 made a phone call from the mansion. 12 Q How do you know that? 13 A Because my daughter was there. 14 Q Was there when he made the phone call? 15 A My daughter and Jeff Stoner. 16 Q Which daughter are we talking about? 17 A Laeysa. 18 Q She was there when he made the phone call 19 or she was there after he made the phone call? 20 A She was there during the phone call. 21 Q Did she try to stop him? 22 A That's not her personalty. 23 Q So did she come and tell you that he was 24 making this phone call? 25 A No, Jeff Stoner was there too and he took Page 495 1 the phone -- I don't know. This is just my version. 2 Q Tell me whatever you've heard. 3 A The story they told us was Jeff took the 4 phone from Joey because he was telling his dad that 5 they're beating me, they're beating me, and he said -- 6 he didn't even say anything. His dad said, don't 7 worry, he does this all the time. 8 Q His dad said that to whom? 9 A He said that -- I believe he said it to 10 Jeff, but I know he said it -- then he wanted to talk 11 to my daughter and he told her just to -- this is a 12 game that he plays and just to tell him not to do it 13 again. 14 Q So just to make sure that I'm clear, Jeff 15 Stoner told you that Jeff took the phone away from 16 Joey and then Jeff got on the phone and talked to 17 Joey's father? 18 A That's my understanding, okay? 19 Q Okay. But Jeff told you that he had had a 20 conversation with the father? 21 A Yes, I believe, and my daughter did too. 22 Q And so then Jeff handed the phone to the 23 daughter at some point and your daughter had a phone 24 conversation with Joey's father? 25 A Yes. And he told her the same thing, that Page 496 1 this is something he does all of the time and that he 2 was a liar and this was part of his MO. 3 Q Did you have a group discussion about 4 this? 5 A I don't remember, but could have. 6 Q Do you recall Joey having any consequences 7 as a result of this infraction? 8 A No, I don't, but usually if something like 9 that happens, there would be, probably, a 10 responsibility packet. 11 Q Do you recall if Joey Hamson ever had to 12 fill out a responsibility packet while at your 13 program? 14 A I presume he did. 15 Q But do you recall whether Joey Hamson ever 16 had to fill out a responsibility packet? 17 A No, I don't recall, but I'm sure that he 18 probably did. 19 Q But you have no memory of it? 20 A No. 21 Q Joey alleges, among other things, that you 22 told him at one point that he couldn't eat until he 23 turned in a book report that was due. Do you recall 24 ever telling Joey that he could not eat until he 25 turned in a book report? Page 497 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Okay. At some point Joey ends up leaving 3 your program early; is that right? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Tell me -- and there's this whole chain of 6 events and this is going to be a vague question, but 7 tell me how this started. What started this whole 8 chain of events that led to Joey leaving? 9 A Joey had written a letter in the school to 10 the kids. There was some changes starting to happen 11 in Joey and he was starting to be more responsible and 12 he was starting to get the knack of things and that 13 was starting to work and he wrote a letter on his own, 14 and I think you have that letter, somebody does, which 15 apologizes to all of the kids and tells them that this 16 is the way he's been all of his life and he has a 17 motivation to change and he'd really like their help 18 and he wants them to forgive him and he wants them to 19 understand why he does the things that he does. And 20 he stood up in front of the whole school and read this 21 letter to them. 22 Q Was this in a group discussion? 23 A It was at school. The kids were in 24 their -- at their tables. 25 Q So this is actually in the school setting? Page 498 1 A In the schoolroom. 2 Q Not just at your program, but while 3 they're -- 4 A Yeah, they were in school. He insisted on 5 doing it right then. And he was feeling much better. 6 He had gone off of some medication that he was on, I 7 wasn't sure which one, and it just felt so good. And 8 so he asked if he could call his parents and tell them 9 how he felt like a real person, because his medication 10 had kept him -- somehow, he felt, it kept him zombied. 11 And he called his parents and I remember 12 he was crying on the phone and told them that this 13 time it was going to work, how much he loved The 14 Whitmore and how, no matter what, he wasn't going to 15 let anybody down and, you know. And his dad crushed 16 him. He said yeah, yeah, yeah, you'll be back into 17 it. You're a drug addict and you -- this isn't going 18 to happen. And then he told him about his brother 19 being in prison and a lot of problems that they were 20 going through and how much this was costing them, put 21 him on a guilt trip, and he felt pretty depressed. 22 Well, that night was Friday night when we 23 played basketball at the church and the kids had all 24 got together, and Ben. The kids were walking to the 25 church, which is just like a block or two away, and Page 499 1 Joey slipped out of the crowd at the next-door 2 neighbors', because he saw them upstairs in the room 3 and they had called him in, and he got drunk with 4 them. 5 And so when the kids came back from 6 basketball they had all been looking -- they got there 7 and they had to come back because they couldn't find 8 Joey and Joey came and joined them and told them that 9 he was drunk. And the kids were so mad, especially 10 Casey. 11 Q Casey Willis? 12 A Uh-huh (affirmative), she was very upset, 13 and Joey made passes at Alex. 14 Q Alex who? 15 A Alex Nichols, and she slapped him and she 16 told him to get off of her. 17 Q Were you there for this or is this 18 something you've been told about? 19 A Yes, I was there. 20 Q You were there for this meeting? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. Keep going. 23 A So while we were all talking about what 24 was going on, Casey slipped into the office and called 25 the police. Page 500 1 Q Casey Willis? 2 A Yes. And told them that the neighbors had 3 given -- she was mad at the neighbors for getting him 4 drunk. 5 Q Were you aware that she had slipped in the 6 office? 7 A No. 8 Q Did you instruct her to go call the 9 police? 10 A No, I didn't. And the next thing we knew 11 the police were there. And while the police were 12 there -- 13 Q Let me stop you right there before we go 14 on. How many of your students were in the room for 15 this encounter? 16 A I couldn't tell you. 17 Q Were all of the students? 18 A It was pretty full. No, because some were 19 upstairs. It wasn't everyone. 20 Q Okay. So the police show up? 21 A The police show up and they come in and 22 they had talked to the neighbor and Joey was freaking 23 out and acting drunk. I think a lot of it was act, 24 but I don't know. But they did a Breathalyzer test 25 and he was drunk. But he -- Page 501 1 Q Did it beep or anything? 2 A I don't know, but they wrote it down 3 somewhere. 4 Q Did they tell you he was drunk? 5 A Yeah. Nephi police didn't keep very good 6 records of this whole thing, but he -- they were going 7 to take him -- either they were going to handcuff him 8 and take him in and he got really mad and started 9 kicking and screaming and hitting the -- 10 Q Did they tell you they were going to 11 handcuff him? 12 A I was there. 13 Q But did they tell you they were going to 14 handcuff him? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q So what gives you the impression they were 17 going to handcuff him? 18 A Because he was out of control. He started 19 to hit them. 20 Q Okay. 21 A And he was screaming things like, I love 22 Hitler, and Hitler is the only person I'll listen to. 23 And he was completely out of control and rolling on 24 the floor and acting like he was full of demons. 25 Q Had he ever done this before? Page 502 1 A He started hitting himself in the face. 2 Q Had he ever acted like he had demons 3 before? 4 A Yeah, he did that sometimes. 5 Q Had he ever made reference to Hitler 6 before? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How often -- 9 A Hitler was his hero -- 10 Q How often had he made reference to Hitler? 11 A I couldn't tell you that either. 12 Q Had he made reference to Hitler in a 13 public setting, that you're aware of? 14 A I couldn't tell you that either. 15 Q Do you recall him ever making reference to 16 Hitler in a group? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you recall which students were around 19 when he made reference to Hitler? 20 A No, I don't. 21 Q So he's rolling on the floor -- we're back 22 to the November 12th encounter. He's rolling on the 23 floor, the cops are there and he's screaming about 24 Hitler? 25 A Hitting himself in the face. Page 503 1 Q He starts hitting himself in the face. 2 How many times did he hit himself in the face? 3 A Very aggressively. Probably 10 minutes. 4 Q He hit himself in the face for 10 minutes? 5 A Yes, at least. 6 Q Did anybody try stopping him during those 7 10 minutes? 8 A Well, the police were there. 9 Q And the police were not able to stop him 10 in those 10 minutes from hitting himself in the face? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Well, you were there. 13 A I was there, but then I also went into the 14 office for something. I was gone for a few minutes. 15 Q You had a student rolling around on the 16 floor, hitting himself, shouting about Hitler -- 17 A There were two policemen there. 18 MR. FERGUSON: Let him finish his 19 question, which is argumentative. 20 MR. TENNEY: It is argumentative and I'm 21 going to ask it anyway. 22 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You had a student rolling 23 around on the floor, screaming about Hitler, acting 24 like he had demons inside of him, hitting himself in 25 the head and you left the room? Page 504 1 MR. FERGUSON: Surrounded by police. 2 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) How many police were 3 there? 4 A Two. 5 Q And you left the room? 6 A For two minutes. 7 Q Why did you leave the room? 8 A I don't remember. There was some 9 emergency. I don't remember. 10 Q What emergency would have been going on in 11 the room -- 12 A Something important obviously. 13 Q More important than a student screaming 14 about Hitler and hitting himself? 15 A I said two minutes. 16 Q Okay. What time of day was this? 17 A It was in the evening. 18 Q What time? 19 A I couldn't tell you that either. 20 Q Are we talking between 6:00 and 12:00 or 21 are we talking about after midnight? 22 A Between 6:00 and 12:00. 23 Q So you came back from your emergency in 24 the -- what room did you go to? 25 A I left the room, which was -- do you Page 505 1 remember where I said we had group? 2 Q Tell me again which room. 3 A I went into the parlor, which really 4 wasn't leaving the room because the door was wide 5 open. So I wasn't out of control of the situation, I 6 just wasn't aware of every single thing that happened. 7 Q Okay. Did you leave during the 10-minute 8 period in which he was hitting himself? 9 A No, I saw him hit himself. 10 Q But you said he was hitting himself in the 11 head for 10 minutes? 12 A That's what he did the whole time. 13 Q Okay. So he's hitting himself for 10 14 minutes and you're saying that the two police 15 officers -- did they try stopping him from hitting 16 himself? 17 A That I couldn't give you a definite 18 answer. I don't remember. But we felt that the 19 policemen were there to take charge of the situation. 20 Q You said that you were in the room for at 21 least part of this. What do you remember the police 22 officers doing while Joey was hitting himself in the 23 head for 10 minutes? 24 A In fact, maybe -- one of the police 25 officers might have been in the office talking to Mark Page 506 1 and they needed a question from me and they called me 2 into there. 3 Q Is this while Joey was hitting himself in 4 the head? 5 A I don't know, but it was during that time 6 period. 7 Q Okay. Well, I'm asking a real specific 8 question. I'm trying to figure out what happened 9 while Joey was hitting himself in the head. Who was 10 trying to stop him from hitting himself in the head? 11 A I don't recall. 12 Q Were the police officers trying to stop 13 him from hitting himself in the head? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Were any other students? 16 A But you would assume that, wouldn't you? 17 Q I'm not asking for your assumptions, I'm 18 asking what you remember seeing. 19 A Well, if you're not asking for my 20 assumptions then my pure answer is I don't recall. 21 Q You don't have any memory of who was 22 trying to stop him from hitting himself in the head? 23 A I have no memory and I don't recall. 24 Q Okay. Do you remember what stopped him at 25 the end of the 10 minutes from hitting himself Page 507 1 anymore? 2 A The police. 3 Q Okay. What do you remember about that? 4 How did they stop him? 5 A I don't recall. 6 Q But you remember that they somehow stopped 7 him? 8 A I believe it was them. 9 Q But you don't have any memory of it? 10 A I don't have any memory. 11 Q Was Joey ever handcuffed? 12 A I don't recall. 13 Q Okay. How did the police officers end up 14 leaving? 15 A Pardon me? 16 Q How did the police officers end up 17 leaving? What caused them to leave? 18 A I don't recall. 19 Q Do you remember when they left? 20 A I don't recall. 21 Q Do you remember why they left? 22 A I don't recall. 23 Q Do you remember if they took Joey with 24 them? 25 A Absolutely not. Page 508 1 Q So Joey stayed? 2 A Yes. 3 Q What happened after they left? 4 A It's vague, but the kids were mad at him 5 and to keep peace I told Joey to go downstairs. 6 Q Are these the circular stairs in the 7 corner? 8 A Yes. 9 Q The stairs that have been taken out; is 10 that right? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So you told Joey to go downstairs. Why 13 did you tell him to go downstairs? 14 A So that the kids didn't want to hurt him. 15 Q Who wanted to hurt him? 16 A Everyone was mad at him. He tried to 17 attack one of the girls and he was attacking anybody 18 and anything around him. 19 Q Who did he attack, other than Alex and the 20 cops? You talked about him trying to -- 21 A Anyone who came close to him. This kid 22 was out of control. 23 Q Was he still out of control when the cops 24 left? 25 A Yes. Page 509 1 Q So why did the cops leave if he was out of 2 control? 3 A Because they're from Nephi City. 4 MR. FERGUSON: Calls for speculation. 5 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So your testimony -- I'm 6 not going to belabor the point, I'm going to get off 7 this, but your testimony is that when the cops left 8 Joey is still out of control? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Still swinging his fists? 11 A I don't recall. 12 Q Still talking about Hitler? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q What do you mean "out of control" then? 15 A He was not in control, which would mean 16 he's out of control. 17 Q Okay. Well, I caught that part, but what 18 does that mean to be in control or out of control? 19 A That's speculation and up to you and me. 20 For me it's when you're not in control, you're out of 21 control. 22 Q Okay. Well, it's your testimony and I'm 23 just asking you to explain what you meant when you 24 said out of control. I'm not trying to be -- 25 A And I told you. Page 510 1 Q What did you -- 2 A I said being out of control is when you're 3 not in control. 4 Q Okay. What does it mean to be in control? 5 A Of a sound mind. 6 Q Okay. How was Joey not of a sound mind at 7 that point? 8 A Number one, he was drunk. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Number two, he was screaming belligerent 11 obscenities and praising Hitler. 12 Q And he's still doing this when they left? 13 A Yes. 14 Q So you told him to go downstairs, right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Did he walk himself down the stairs? 17 A No. 18 Q How did he get down the stairs? 19 A I had to help him. 20 Q You had to help him down the stairs. Why 21 did you have to help him down the stairs? 22 A Because he was drunk. 23 Q So was he staggering? 24 A Yes. 25 Q So describe for me, if you would, the Page 511 1 process by which Joey got from the top of the stairs 2 to the bottom of the stairs. 3 A I couldn't do that because you have to 4 just imagine how it would happen. 5 Q Well, you know, the thing is I don't have 6 to imagine it, I get to ask you about it. You said -- 7 A Okay. Then I don't remember. 8 Q You don't remember how Joey got from the 9 top of the stairs to the bottom? 10 A Yes, I helped him, but I don't remember 11 how I helped him. But it was very gently so that I 12 wouldn't be hurt. 13 Q So did you have your arm around him? 14 A I don't remember. 15 Q How narrow were these stairs? 16 A About like that. 17 Q Give me an estimation, anybody. 18 A I'm not good at that. You tell me. 19 Q Are we talking about four feet wide, five 20 feet wide? 21 MR. FERGUSON: No. I would say less than 22 three, if you're asking me. 23 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So was it wide enough for 24 two people to stand next to each other? 25 A Huh-uh (negative). No. Page 512 1 Q Only wide enough for one person? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So were you standing in front of him to 4 make sure he didn't fall down or were you standing 5 behind him to sort of prop him up? 6 A There might have even been somebody in 7 front of Joey. 8 Q Who? 9 A Maybe... 10 MR. FERGUSON: Don't guess. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I couldn't tell you. 12 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you have any memory of 13 who else helped you get him down the stairs? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you remember specifically that there 16 was somebody or do you just think that there might 17 have been? 18 A I'm pretty sure that there was somebody. 19 Q Do you remember that there was somebody? 20 A No, I don't, but I would imagine. 21 Q So you don't remember if you were in front 22 of him or behind him, but you just remember that in 23 some sense you helped him down the stairs; is that 24 right? 25 A Yes. Page 513 1 Q Did you push him? 2 A Absolutely 100-percent no, I did not push 3 him. 4 Q But you helped him down the stairs? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you remember if anybody was at the 7 bottom of the stairs when he got down there? 8 A No, I don't remember, except maybe the 9 person that was in front of him. 10 Q Do you remember if there were any boys in 11 the rooms downstairs when you got him down there? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q What happened once you got him down the 14 stairs, how long did he stay down there? 15 A Well, Mark went down and told him to stay 16 by our bedroom so that the kids wouldn't bother him. 17 Q Did you have a bedroom downstairs? 18 A Yeah, we were sleeping downstairs at that 19 time. 20 Q Okay. You said yesterday that you never 21 really had one set bedroom, you just moved from 22 bedroom to bedroom. 23 A And I also said that my bedroom would have 24 been the room that we slept in that night. 25 Q Okay. So at that time your bedroom was Page 514 1 downstairs? 2 A Yes, it was. 3 Q Okay. So you brought Joey downstairs. 4 What was the purpose of having him go downstairs. Was 5 that just to get him away from everybody? Is that 6 what the purpose was? 7 A Absolutely. 8 Q You said that Joey was out of control when 9 you decided to bring him down the stairs. Was Mark in 10 the room at that time with you during this whole group 11 discussion where the cops were there and everything? 12 A He was probably in and out. I'm not sure. 13 I don't know. 14 Q Were you concerned about your safety, 15 trying to escort a crazy, Hitler screaming, 16 demonically possessed, drunk student down the stairs? 17 Were you concerned about your safety? 18 MR. FERGUSON: That mischaracterizes the 19 testimony, but answer it if you can. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, the only answer I have 21 for that is if I was concerned about my safety, I 22 wouldn't be doing what I've done for the last 30 years 23 because I've been thrown off balconies, I've been 24 stabbed, I've been slapped, I've been spit on a lot. 25 I mean, if I was concerned about my safety wouldn't Page 515 1 you think I would find a different profession? 2 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So let me ask that 3 question. Were you concerned about your safety when 4 you decided to help Joey Hamson down the stairs? 5 A That's something you don't think about 6 when one of your kids are in danger. 7 Q Okay. Well, was Joey Hamson one of your 8 kids? 9 A At that point yes, he was. 10 Q Let me ask you the question and it calls 11 for a yes or no and then we'll discuss it after you 12 give your answer. Were you concerned about your 13 safety, given Joey Hamson's state, when you decided to 14 bring him down the stairs, or help him down the 15 stairs? 16 A I can't give you the answer that you're 17 look for because, like I said before, if I was 18 concerned -- my first priority in a situation like 19 that is the safety of the kids. 20 Q But were there students around who were 21 bigger than you? 22 A I would imagine. 23 Q So if Joey had been a real physical threat 24 at that point, why didn't you have one of the bigger 25 boys take him downstairs? Page 516 1 MR. FERGUSON: Calls for speculation. 2 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm asking for your 3 thinking. You're the one that decided to bring him 4 down. 5 A I think the answer I gave you just a 6 minute ago would answer that. My first concern at 7 that point is the safety of the kids. And if there 8 was a bigger boy around, maybe they're the ones that 9 were helping me in the front of him, I don't know. 10 Q Okay. So you get Joey Hamson downstairs. 11 How long does he stay downstairs at that point? 12 A It was time for everyone to go to bed. 13 Q So did he spend the night downstairs? 14 A Yes, he did. 15 Q Do you remember if anybody else was 16 downstairs with him at any point during the night? 17 A Mark and I were with him the whole night. 18 Q Were you in the same room with him? 19 A Basically, yes. 20 Q What do you mean "basically"? 21 A The room that we slept in had a door, the 22 door was open and he was in the doorway. 23 Q He slept in the doorway that night? 24 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 25 Q Did you ever -- were you ever told that Page 517 1 Joey spent part of that night in a closet, any part of 2 that night? 3 A Well, some people probably would call it a 4 closet. Most people wouldn't sleep in the bedrooms 5 that Mark and I sleep in. It looks like a closet. 6 It's the one in the basement, if you saw the mansion. 7 Q Is it the room with the bathroom in it? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So that's the room that Joey Hamson spent 10 the night in the hallway of, or in the entryway of? 11 A That's right. 12 Q Are there other closets in the basement? 13 A Yes, there is. 14 Q Have you ever been told that Joey was, at 15 any point in that night, put into a closet? 16 A You're going to have to say that again. 17 Q Have you ever been told that at any point 18 in that night Joey Hamson was put into a closet? 19 A I don't think so. 20 Q Is that a yes or a no? Do you recall ever 21 being told that? 22 A I don't recall ever being told that. 23 Q Do you recall ever being told that Joey 24 was assaulted by other students downstairs in the 25 basement that night? Page 518 1 A I do recall that Joey tried to hit another 2 student that night. 3 Q Who? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q When did you learn about that? 6 A I don't remember that either. 7 Q Okay. You woke up the next morning, is 8 Joey still in the entryway to that room? 9 A No. 10 Q Where was he? 11 A Well, he was -- I woke up -- I'm a very 12 light sleeper and probably three or four times that I 13 did wake up Joey was -- I had just went to check on 14 him because he had hurt himself when he hit himself. 15 Q How could you tell he had hurt himself? 16 A He had scratches and he had -- I think he 17 had -- he just had scratches. He just looked hurt. 18 Q Did he have any bruises at that point that 19 you could see? 20 A No, I wasn't looking for bruises. 21 Q Okay. But did you see any bruises? 22 A I wasn't look for bruises. 23 Q That's not my question. 24 A No, I didn't see any that I remember. 25 Q Was he there the next morning when you got Page 519 1 up? 2 A I checked on him about three times and he 3 wasn't there about 6:00 in the morning. 4 Q And so what did you do? 5 A We went looking for him. 6 Q Did you end up finding him? 7 A After about a half hour we couldn't find 8 him so we called the police. 9 Q And what happened at that point? 10 A They went looking for him. 11 Q The police went looking for him? 12 A If I remember right. This is all just 13 speculation, okay? 14 Q Well, I don't want you to speculate. I 15 just want you to tell me what you remember. 16 A I'm speculating or else I'm just going to 17 have to say I don't know. 18 Q I'd prefer you not speculate. I just want 19 you to tell me what you remember. 20 A Okay. I don't know. 21 Q You don't know what the police did at that 22 point? 23 A No. 24 Q Were you ever told what the police did at 25 that point? Page 520 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Okay. Do you know who ended up finding 3 Joey? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q Do you know where these unnamed persons 6 ever found Joey? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Where was Joey found? 9 A At the people's house that got him drunk. 10 Q Do you know the name of those people? 11 A No, I don't remember. 12 Q How far away from the mansion are they? 13 A Behind the fence. 14 Q Behind the west fence? 15 A The back fence, whatever that is. 16 Q Behind the pool? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did you find out that Joey was found 19 there? 20 A The police. 21 Q Did a police officer come to the mansion 22 and tell you that? 23 A I don't remember. 24 Q What happened next? 25 A I don't remember. Page 521 1 Q Was Joey ever brought back to the mansion? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q Did police officers come to discuss the 4 situation with you? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q Let me back up and ask you a question just 7 to make sure that I've asked you this. Right before 8 you took Joey downstairs -- or right after you got him 9 down to the bottom of the stairs, did you tell any 10 students to "take care of Joey," using those exact 11 words, "take care of Joey"? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Okay. We're back to Joey being found. 14 Joey is found by the cops, somebody comes and tells 15 you that somebody had found him next door. You have 16 talked before, while we were talking about Erica Cira, 17 that in relation to this whole string of events, DCFS 18 comes in and starts interviewing kids. How soon after 19 Joey was found did those DCFS interviews happen? 20 A I just remembered something. 21 Q Please. 22 A We took a picture of Kyle Cramer's eye 23 because Joey had hit him. 24 Q At what point in the night had Joey hit 25 him? Page 522 1 A I think it was when the police were there, 2 but I don't remember. 3 Q Do you remember when you took the photo? 4 A It was the next day. 5 Q The next morning? Next afternoon? Next 6 what? 7 A It was the next morning, I believe. 8 Q Do you remember if Joey -- 9 A Oh, no, next afternoon. Maybe night, I 10 don't remember. 11 Q Do you still have a copy of that photo? 12 A I don't think so. I wish I did. I don't 13 know though. I can look. 14 Q Please look and if you happen to find it, 15 please -- 16 A It's probably on that hard drive that's 17 broken. 18 Q If you happen to find it, please don't do 19 anything to alter or destroy it and we'll probably be 20 asking for it. 21 A Okay. 22 MR. FERGUSON: You're keeping a running 23 list of your requests? 24 MR. TENNEY: Well, I'm just going to read 25 through the transcript. It will be a fun afternoon. Page 523 1 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You said while you were 2 talking about Erica that DCFS comes in connection with 3 this whole string of events and ends up interviewing 4 everybody. How soon after Joey had been found by the 5 cops did DCFS show up and start interviewing the kids? 6 A They didn't interview him. Like it wasn't 7 in -- if that was in -- do you know the dates of when 8 Joey was... 9 Q This is working off of memory. My memory 10 was that Joey and the cops and that whole evening 11 escapade that we just talked about occurred on 12 November 12, 2004. Does that sound right to everybody 13 here? So Joey was found, if he was found the next 14 morning he was found on November 13th. I could be 15 wrong by a couple of days. 16 A So the DCFS never came until after 17 Halloween, I think, or else like around Halloween -- 18 or not Halloween, but Thanksgiving. 19 Q Okay. 20 A It was weeks. 21 Q So is it more than one week after Joey? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is it more than two weeks? 24 A I believe it probably was. 25 Q Tell me your first contact with DCFS Page 524 1 following the Joey Hamson runaway situation. 2 A I don't remember. I think it was then 3 though. 4 Q How were you contacted by DCFS, by letter, 5 by personal visit, what? What's your first contact 6 with them? 7 A It was a raid. 8 Q It was a raid, okay. Do you remember when 9 that raid happened? 10 A I said right around Thanksgiving. 11 Q Approximately Thanksgiving of 2004. 12 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 13 Q When you say raid, what time of day did 14 this raid happen? 15 A It was around 5:00. 16 Q In the morning or afternoon? 17 A Afternoon. No, maybe a little bit before. 18 Q Okay. Sometime in the afternoon? 19 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Or maybe a little 20 bit after because I know that the search warrant that 21 they had was illegal -- 22 Q Okay. We'll get to that in a second. 23 A -- because of the timing. 24 Q Okay. How was that search warrant served? 25 Did you get a knock on the door or did the door just Page 525 1 come busting down like you see on TV? How did this 2 happen? 3 A I wasn't there. 4 Q Where were you? 5 A I was at the arena house and Tim -- I 6 think Tim had just gone home. 7 Q Tim Lowe? 8 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 9 Q Gone home for good or just gone home for 10 the day? 11 A His 8:00 to 5:00 was over and I drove over 12 to the mansion and there was seven cop cars. 13 Q Did somebody call you and tell you that 14 the cops were there? 15 A No. 16 Q You just happened to be driving over and 17 you saw the cops there? 18 A No, I didn't just happen to be driving 19 over. It was my procedure when -- it was my time to 20 go to the mansion. 21 Q Your scheduled time to come over? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So you come over and the cops are already 24 there? 25 A Yes. Page 526 1 Q And you said there were seven cop cars? 2 A And the kids were all crying. 3 Q Where were the kids at this point? 4 A Getting in the cop cars. 5 Q So when you pulled up, you saw kids 6 actually being put into cop cars? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How many kids did you have at that point? 9 A It was very traumatic for the kids and me 10 too. 11 Q Okay. How many kids did you have at that 12 point? 13 A I couldn't tell you that. 14 Q Can you give me a ballpark? 15 A A lot. 16 Q More than 25? 17 A I couldn't tell you. 18 Q I think you said earlier that the most you 19 ever had was 39, that at some point in 2004 you had 39 20 students. 21 MR. FERGUSON: 2005, I think she said. 22 MR. TENNEY: 2005 could be right. 23 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Was it 39 at that point 24 or was that later? 25 A Don't know. Page 527 1 Q So you see students being loaded into cop 2 cars, right? 3 A Yeah. There probably was in the 30s. 4 Q Do you get out of your car? Do you 5 confront a cop at that point? What do you do? 6 A First of all I wanted to throw up, and 7 then I said a prayer and then I walked inside, tried 8 not to faint while they demanded me to sit on the 9 stairs and not move. 10 Q Who demanded that? 11 A I don't remember who it was. 12 Q It was a cop? 13 A Yes -- not a cop, one of those people. 14 Q One of what people? 15 A Whoever was doing this raid. 16 Q Were they uniformed? 17 A I couldn't even tell you that. I don't 18 know. 19 Q Were they cop cars that you had seen 20 outside? 21 A Yes. 22 Q With lights and everything? 23 A Yeah, it was a big scene in Nephi. 24 Q But you can't remember whether the people 25 were wearing cop uniforms or not? Page 528 1 A I think the cops in uniforms were hauling 2 the kids away. 3 Q But then there were other people who were 4 not wearing cop uniforms? 5 A Yes, quite a few. 6 Q Somebody tells you to sit on the stairs; 7 is that right? 8 A Yes, and don't move. 9 Q Where's Mark at this point? 10 A Actually, they forced me on the stairs. 11 If I remember right, they pushed my down on the seat 12 and said, don't move. 13 Q Who pushed you? 14 A One of the people. 15 Q Uniformed or not uniformed? 16 A Not uniformed. 17 Q Did you ever file an assault claim as a 18 result of that? 19 A I haven't done anything that I'm going to 20 do. 21 Q I'm sorry, say that again. 22 A No, I've been dealing with this stuff. 23 Q You said "I haven't done anything that I'm 24 going to do"? 25 A No. My plans would be to get some kind of Page 529 1 justice. 2 Q And what does that mean, "justice"? 3 A It's wrong what happened. 4 Q Okay. So what are you going to do to get 5 justice? 6 A I don't know, but that's the way I feel. 7 Q Okay. Where was Mark during all of this? 8 A I'm probably talking too much, but that's 9 how I feel. 10 MR. FERGUSON: You are talking too much. 11 You'd be done a lot sooner if you wouldn't talk so 12 much. 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is a very hard 14 thing to talk about. 15 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Sure. Where was Mark 16 during all of this? 17 A Standing there white as a ghost. 18 Q Was he already at the mansion when you got 19 there? 20 A Yes, he was. 21 Q When you came inside -- did you come in 22 through the front door? 23 A Yes, I did. 24 Q When you came inside did you talk to Mark 25 before you talked to the cops or did you talk to the Page 530 1 cops before you talked to Mark? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q When they pushed you on the stairs, was 4 anybody else around you? 5 A There were people everywhere. 6 Q Do you know if Mark was near you when you 7 were pushed onto the stairs? 8 A They wouldn't let us be by each other. 9 Q And by that do you mean they wouldn't let 10 you be in the same room or they wouldn't let you be 11 within a certain distance of each other? 12 A I don't remember. 13 Q Do you remember if Mark was in eyesight 14 distance of you when you were pushed onto the stairs? 15 A I don't remember. They were going through 16 all of our drawers. They had white gloves and they 17 went through every little thing in the mansion. 18 Q Did they show you the search warrant? 19 A They never showed me the search warrant. 20 Q Do you know who they showed the search 21 warrant to? 22 A I don't even know they showed the search 23 warrant to anybody. 24 Q You said before that it was an illegal 25 search warrant. Let's go ahead and talk about that. Page 531 1 Why was it an illegal search warrant? 2 A I couldn't tell you the reasons why, but I 3 know that it was. 4 Q In what way was it illegal? 5 A I don't know, but I know that it was. 6 Q How do you know it was illegal? 7 A Because we hired an attorney. 8 Q And who -- other than anything an attorney 9 has ever told you, do you have any basis for believing 10 that the search warrant was illegal? 11 A That's good enough for me and the 12 attorney. 13 Q Okay. Have you ever filed suit against 14 Nephi as a result of this search? 15 A No, I haven't. 16 Q To the best of your knowledge, has there 17 been any investigation by any governmental authority 18 regarding the validity of the search warrant? 19 A Come again? 20 Q To the best of your knowledge -- I 21 recognize you're not a lawyer, but to the best of your 22 knowledge has there been any investigation by any 23 governmental agency regarding whether this search 24 warrant was valid or not, was legal or not? 25 A No, not yet. Page 532 1 Q There hasn't been an investigation? 2 MR. FERGUSON: That she knows of. 3 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) That you know of? 4 A That I know of, no. 5 Q Okay. At some point were you ever taken 6 in for an interview by the authorities? 7 A No, I wasn't. 8 Q Have you ever been interviewed by the 9 authorities in conjunction with that search? 10 A No, I haven't. 11 Q To the best of your knowledge, what did 12 they do during that search? You said that they were 13 walking around with white gloves going through 14 drawers. What else did they do, that you know of? 15 A Well, if you want to talk about starving, 16 we hadn't eaten until I think it was 1:00 or 2:00 in 17 the morning when the kids started coming back home. 18 Q Did they prevent you from eating? 19 A Yes, I had to sit in the same place. 20 Q Did you ask them at some point if you 21 could eat? 22 A I was scared to death. 23 Q But did you ask them at some point if you 24 could eat? 25 A Of course not. Page 533 1 Q You didn't? 2 A No. 3 Q You said that this was right around 4 Thanksgiving. Do you happen to know if it was before 5 Thanksgiving or after Thanksgiving? 6 A I can't remember. 7 Q Were any of the students gone for 8 Thanksgiving break or anything? 9 A No. 10 Q Was there anything about the mansion that 11 was unusual on that day in terms of its cleanliness? 12 A No, it was exactly as it always is, except 13 that it was 5:00 and usually by then there's a few 14 things out. 15 Q But that was no reason that you can think 16 of that it would have been any more or less dirty than 17 it normally was; is that right? 18 A No. In fact, I remember reading the 19 report and they mentioned how clean it was. 20 Q Which report was that? 21 A I don't remember, but I remember thinking 22 good. 23 Q So the students had been doing their 24 cleaning as normal during that time period? 25 A Yes, we try to keep -- we live in Page 534 1 cleanliness. 2 Q And there was nothing abnormal about that 3 time period? 4 A Except that it was 5:00 and activities had 5 been going on all day. 6 Q Students start coming back, what do they 7 tell you about their interviews? Where had they been 8 interviewed? 9 A In the police station. 10 Q You mentioned before, and I'll just cut to 11 the chase on this, that Erica was the only one who 12 took the opportunity to leave. Who told you that the 13 cops were giving them the opportunity to leave? 14 A Most of them. 15 Q And what did they tell you about their 16 interviews with the police officers? 17 A That they were leading questions, that two 18 of the boys said that the policemen hurt them. 19 Q Hurt them? 20 A And they used -- 21 Q Did you say hurt? 22 A Hurt, h-u-r-t. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And that they were using vulgar language, 25 they used the F word numerous times and they made Page 535 1 threats to them. 2 Q What threats were you told about? 3 A I can't remember the exact threats, but I 4 remember Sky Rudizzi was one of them, Carl was one. 5 Q Carl who? 6 A I can't think of his last name. I'm not 7 good at names, remember? 8 Q Is it Carl Milligan? 9 A Yes. And a couple of others. And their 10 parents were very upset about the way they were 11 treated by the authorities. 12 Q Who were these boys that told about these? 13 You said there were two boys that told you about -- 14 A There was two that told me, but there were 15 more. Dan. 16 Q Dan Carter? 17 A Yes. That the police were trying to 18 manipulate them into saying negative things about us. 19 Q Just to be clear, did you have any advance 20 warning of any kind that this search was going to 21 happen? 22 A Not whatsoever. 23 Q Prior to the students being transported 24 over to their interviews, did you have any group 25 discussion with the students regarding the interviews Page 536 1 that were about to happen? 2 A Absolutely not. How would I if I didn't 3 know and I didn't get to talk to the kids. 4 Q So it's your testimony, then, that you 5 never told the students what to say during these 6 interviews before they had gone in? 7 A There's no way I could have. 8 Q Okay. The -- 9 A They took personal property of ours that 10 we've never received. 11 Q What did they take? 12 A Personal family videos of when my children 13 were little. 14 Q Have you ever asked for them back? 15 A Yes, we have on numerous times. 16 Q In writing? 17 A Probably. 18 Q Do you have any memory of ever writing to 19 anybody asking for that stuff back? 20 A I have memories of writing, but I have no 21 memory of when. 22 Q Do you have copies of those writings? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Joey obviously was gone at that point. 25 What's the next contact you had with Joey's parents? Page 537 1 A They were devastated. 2 Q Did you call them personally to tell them 3 that Joey had been taken away? 4 A I wasn't the one who talked to Joey's 5 parents, but Mark was. 6 Q Okay. 7 A But they were completely supportive. They 8 wrote a letter. 9 Q Let's talk about that letter. When was 10 that letter written? How soon after Joey left was 11 that letter written? 12 A Soon. 13 Q How soon? 14 A And it was their idea. 15 Q Before we talk about the substance of the 16 letter, how soon after Joey left was that letter 17 written? 18 A Soon is all I can say. I don't know. 19 Q Did they e-mail it to you or did they send 20 it to you by snail mail? 21 A I don't know that either. 22 Q Did you get it within a week? 23 A I don't know that either. 24 Q Did you have any input as to the substance 25 of the letter? Page 538 1 A Absolutely not. 2 Q Did you have any discussion with either 3 Tim or Kristina Hamson prior to them writing the 4 letter about how they should handle the situation? 5 A Absolutely not. 6 Q So prior to them sending you this letter 7 you never talked to them and said it would be helpful 8 if the letter was sent by you guys? 9 A No, I did not. I never talked to them at 10 all until after it all happened and Kristina Hamson 11 called crying on the phone telling me how sorry, that 12 Joey has done this many times. 13 Q Done what many times? 14 A Tried to get his way by causing this kind 15 of drama. 16 Q By running away from a school, that kind 17 of drama. 18 A By making false accusations in spite of 19 how much it would hurt people. 20 Q When the letter came, was that a surprise 21 to you that that letter existed? 22 A It shocked the pants off of me. 23 Q You didn't know that that letter was 24 coming? 25 A If we had known that Joey was that kind of Page 539 1 kid, even after we was accepted him into our program, 2 he would have been gone. 3 Q That's not what I was asking. I'm talking 4 about the letter that Joey's parents wrote. You said 5 that it came to you, you can't remember how it came to 6 you, but I'm just trying to clarify. You had no 7 knowledge that that letter was coming until it showed 8 up on your door? 9 A No, I had no idea. 10 Q So you read the letter and that was the 11 first time you had ever seen it? 12 A First time I ever saw it. 13 Q First time you knew it existed? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. Joey ended up -- my understanding 16 is he ended up bouncing around through a couple of 17 different DCFS programs and ended up leaving the state 18 a couple of weeks later. Did you have any involvement 19 with DCFS regarding where Joey was during that time 20 period? 21 A No. If I remember right, they had no 22 communication with us at all. The only communication 23 we had was with a lawyer who has an office across the 24 street from the school who took his own time to come 25 over and tell us. He happened to be at the trial and Page 540 1 he thought it was the most absurd thing he's ever 2 seen. 3 Q And who was that lawyer? 4 A I don't remember his name, but when you 5 talk to Mark he could remember. 6 Q Was this lawyer representing you at that 7 time? 8 A Not at all. He didn't even know. He 9 just -- he was flabbergasted. 10 Q Did he purport to represent you while he 11 was talking to you about Joey Hamson? 12 A Did he what? 13 Q Did he purport to represent you? Did he 14 in any way say to you, I'm going to represent you with 15 regard to Joey Hamson? 16 A Not at all. 17 Q So he came over just as a neighbor to tell 18 you that he had seen this court proceeding? 19 A He came over out of integrity. He felt 20 like this was very unjust and unfair. 21 Q And you don't remember his name at all? 22 A It doesn't come to me right now, sorry. 23 Q Does he have a sign up? 24 A I don't know. 25 Q You said his office is right across the Page 541 1 street from the mansion; is that right? 2 A Yeah, that's what he told... 3 Q Okay. Other than the things that we've 4 already talked about, can you give me any instances in 5 which Joey Hamson was dishonest? And we don't need to 6 rehash all the other stuff. Anything else we haven't 7 talked about in which Joey Hamson was dishonest? 8 A Joey Hamson was a very dishonest person, 9 but I can't give you any instances because I can't 10 remember. 11 Q Other than the incidents we've already 12 talked about, can you tell me any incidents in which 13 Joey broke any of your rules? 14 A Just the phone rule that you were talking 15 about. 16 Q Yeah. Other than those? 17 A Discipline with following schedule. That 18 was very important. 19 Q In what way did Joey break that rule? 20 A He defied just about anything you asked 21 him to do. 22 Q Such as? 23 A Get up. 24 Q You mean in the morning? 25 A Brush your teeth, do your homework, write Page 542 1 in your journal, do your math, do your science, don't 2 touch the girls. 3 Q What girls did he touch? 4 A Alex. I told you. 5 Q Other than Alex, what girls did he touch? 6 MR. FERGUSON: If any. 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) If any. 8 A I don't remember. 9 Q Well, you said that he touched the girls 10 and you had an S on that so that's plural, so what 11 other girls, besides Alex, did he touch? 12 A Okay. I'm sorry, I don't remember. 13 Q Okay. What other rules do you remember 14 him breaking? 15 A Do I remember him breaking? 16 Q Yeah. 17 A Just mostly respect. 18 MR. TENNEY: Okay. That's all I've got on 19 Joey Hamson. I've got about an hour and a half worth 20 of questions to go. Do you guys want to take a lunch 21 break? We're off the record. 22 (A break was taken from 1:28 p.m. to 23 1:52 p.m.) 24 MR. TENNEY: You indicated to me that you 25 had something else to say. Page 543 1 THE WITNESS: I remembered that while the 2 police were there Mark is the one that took Joey 3 downstairs. 4 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You didn't take Joey down 5 the stairs? 6 A No. Not -- that was -- I went down the 7 stairs because we slept there and that's why I 8 remembered somebody in front. It was when we went 9 down to go to bed. 10 Q So the two of you took Joey down together? 11 A No. No. Mark has there. Mark's the one 12 that took him down. 13 Q Mark took him down and you didn't have 14 anything to do with taking him down the stairs? 15 A No. 16 Q So that whole discussion we had, that was 17 wrong? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Do you know if Mark had anybody 20 with him? 21 A See, and I don't know enough to remember 22 so I'm not even going to say anything. 23 Q Okay. Well, that does change things. 24 A But I know that the police -- he had 25 contact with the police, but you can talk to him about Page 544 1 that stuff. 2 Q I imagine we will. Thank you for 3 clarifying that. 4 So the whole bit about Joey was staggering 5 and you needed to help him, that was just a false 6 memory? 7 A No, he was staggering and I did help him, 8 but it was like into the group room, as you know it, 9 in the mansion. 10 Q You helped him from where to where? 11 A When he came into the house and the kids 12 told me that he was drunk. 13 Q Okay. We just took a break, approximately 14 a 10-minute break. Did you discuss these events with 15 anyone other than your attorneys during that break? 16 A I asked Mark if he remembered anything. 17 Q And what did he tell you? 18 A That what I remembered wasn't the way he 19 remembered it. 20 Q And so then did he remind you that he had 21 taken Joey down the stairs? 22 A He remembered that he had something to do 23 with it, but he said he'd talk to you about it. 24 Q Did he tell you that he had taken Joey 25 down the stairs? Page 545 1 A Yeah. 2 Q And was that the first time you remembered 3 that? 4 A Yeah. 5 Q So that's the basis for you changing your 6 testimony? 7 A No, that's just the truth. 8 Q Okay. Thank you. Anything else you want 9 to change or clarify? 10 A No, but my memory, my recollection of that 11 time, it's hard to remember. 12 Q Okay. Before we dive into the last 13 portion, you mentioned earlier that you had received 14 some e-mails last night that had helped you remember 15 some of the events. What e-mails did you receive last 16 night? 17 MR. FERGUSON: I think that's a 18 mischaracterization. 19 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Did you receive 20 any e-mails last night? 21 A I checked my e-mails. What are you 22 talking about? 23 Q Did you receive any e-mails from your 24 former students last night? 25 A I receive e-mails from former students Page 546 1 almost all the time. 2 Q Did you receive any e-mails from former 3 students last night? 4 A Yeah, I did. 5 Q From whom? 6 A Yes, I did. That's private. 7 Q Well, unless somebody instructs you not to 8 answer it, I'm going to ask that you answer it. Who 9 did you receive e-mails from? 10 A Can you give me my computer, please? 11 MR. FERGUSON: If you don't remember, 12 that's the answer. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't remember. 14 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. You don't remember 15 who these e-mails were from? 16 A No. 17 Q When did you read them? 18 A Last night. 19 Q What time last night? 20 A When we got done here. 21 Q So approximately what time? 22 A I couldn't tell you. 23 Q Was it between 6:00 and 7:00, 7:00 and 24 8:00, 8:00 and 9:00? 25 A Between 4:00 and 1:00 this morning. Page 547 1 Q Okay. Do you remember what any of these 2 e-mails said? 3 A What they usually say. 4 Q Which is? I don't want to know in some 5 abstract sense what they generally say, I want to know 6 if you remember anything that the e-mails that you 7 read last night said. 8 A Yeah. 9 MR. FERGUSON: Let me give you this 10 caution, Cheryl. He's not entitled to know your 11 personal correspondence. 12 THE WITNESS: That would make me happy. 13 MR. FERGUSON: If you remember e-mails 14 last night that have anything to do with this 15 lawsuit -- 16 MR. TENNEY: Or the events in question in 17 this lawsuit. 18 MR. FERGUSON: Then that's -- 19 THE WITNESS: Nothing to do with this. 20 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Did any e-mail that you 21 reviewed last night have anything to do with any of 22 the claims that you understand the plaintiffs to have 23 made against you? 24 A Absolutely not. 25 Q Okay. So these were about completely Page 548 1 different subjects? 2 A Yes, about their lives. 3 MR. TENNEY: Okay, sounds good. Thank 4 you. Let's go ahead and mark this. 5 (EXHIBIT 31 WAS MARKED.) 6 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Ms. Sudweeks, I'm going 7 to show you what's been marked as Deposition 8 Exhibit 31. I'd represent to you this is a document 9 we received from your counsel and this is a listing of 10 witnesses who are expected to be called at trial. 11 Have you ever seen this document before? 12 A Probably. I don't know. 13 Q What I'm going to do now is we're going to 14 walk through the people that have been designated as 15 your trial witnesses and I'm just going to ask you a 16 couple of questions about each one of them just to get 17 a sense of who they are. Sound fair? 18 A That's great. 19 Q Okay. John Gledhill -- 20 A This I like. I don't like the last thing, 21 but this is good. 22 Q Okay. I'm glad you like it. John 23 Gledhill is -- if you go to page number two -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- John Gledhill is listed. Who is John Page 549 1 Gledhill? 2 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you looking on the 3 correct page, Cheryl? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I am. 5 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) This isn't a trick 6 question, sorry. 7 A I'm not sure what you want to know. I 8 could go on forever about John Gledhill. 9 Q Okay. Generally who is he? 10 A He's a man. 11 Q I caught that part with the name John. 12 Other than being a man, who is John Gledhill? 13 A He's a father. 14 Q What connection does John Gledhill have to 15 this case, that you know of? 16 A He lived at The Whitmore Academy. 17 Q From when to when? 18 A Couldn't tell you. 19 Q So he lived at The Whitmore. Can you give 20 me an approximation? 21 A I can't. 22 Q Was he there right when you got to The 23 Whitmore or was he just there recently? 24 A He wasn't there recently and he wasn't 25 there when I got there. Page 550 1 Q So sometime in the middle period, 2 approximately 2002 to 2004 or five; is that right? 3 A I can't even give you approximately. I 4 told you my memory of dates is really bad. 5 Q Okay. What role did he play at The 6 Whitmore Academy? 7 A He was night security. 8 Q Okay. I believe you said earlier that he 9 worked at the hospital as well; is that right? 10 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. 11 Q What's your understanding of what he does 12 at the hospital? 13 A He's smart. 14 Q Okay. That wasn't my question. I'm sure 15 he is smart. 16 A Well, no. There were some people that 17 work at the hospital that aren't smart. 18 Q Okay. What is your understanding -- 19 A Administration. 20 Q We're going to be here as long as we need 21 to be here. 22 A I think he works under administration. He 23 runs the hospital. 24 Q So your understanding is he's the chief 25 guy at the hospital? Page 551 1 A Was. 2 Q Was. And your understanding is he's no 3 longer the chief guy at the hospital? 4 A No, he has a different job. 5 Q What is his different job now? 6 A He works somewhere else. 7 Q Where? 8 A I'm not sure. 9 Q Do you know what he does? 10 A Something important. 11 Q Such as? 12 A Such as something that would require his 13 qualifications which are very expertise. 14 Q And what are his qualifications? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Well, you know enough to know that they're 17 expertise, so what do you know about his 18 qualifications? 19 A Just what I said. 20 Q Cheryl, you realize you're under oath; is 21 that right? 22 A Yeah, but I don't know his qualifications. 23 Q But you knew enough to know that they were 24 expertise and that he's working at a job right now 25 that requires them, but you don't know what they are? Page 552 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know anything about what this man 3 does? 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Presently? 5 MR. TENNEY: Presently. 6 THE WITNESS: I told you, he's in 7 administration. Presently, no. 8 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you know where he 9 lives? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where? 12 A He moved to Nephi. 13 Q Did he live in Nephi before? 14 A No. 15 Q Well, he did when he was the night 16 watchman, right? 17 A He worked at The Whitmore and at the 18 hospital, but he lived in someplace over by Richmond 19 or something -- Richfield. 20 Q How far is Richfield from Nephi? 21 A A long ways. 22 Q So you're saying that during the time 23 period in which he was the night watchman at The 24 Whitmore and working at the hospital, running the 25 hospital, he was also living in Richfield? Page 553 1 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. 2 Q Sounds good. When is the last time you 3 talked to John Gledhill? 4 A It's been a long time. 5 Q How long? 6 A Maybe Trinity's wedding. 7 Q How long ago was that? 8 A Two years. 9 Q Okay. When is the last time you had any 10 other communication with him? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Have you had any other communication with 13 him, other than physically -- personally talking to 14 him? 15 A Not that I recall. 16 Q What's your understanding of what he's 17 going to testify about? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Have you talked to him about this case? 20 A No, I haven't. 21 Q Have you communicated with him about this 22 case? 23 A No, I haven't. 24 Q Let me ask you again, have you read the 25 amended complaint that's been filed in this case? Page 554 1 A I don't think so. 2 Q Now, yesterday I think you said that you 3 tried reading it and you had gotten through part of 4 it, but you couldn't get through the rest. Does that 5 sound right? 6 A Give me an idea of what you're talking 7 about. 8 Q The complaint that's been filed against 9 you, the lawsuit that's been filed against you. 10 A Oh, the amended? 11 Q Yeah, the complaint. I'll spare you all 12 the legal stuff. Do you have an understanding of what 13 you're being sued for at this point? 14 A Money. 15 Q Do you have an understanding of what the 16 allegations are against you? 17 A Probably. 18 Q Okay. What are you aware of? Which of 19 the events in question are you aware of John Gledhill 20 having ever witnessed or been a part of in any way? 21 A I have -- I'm not sure. 22 Q Do you recall him ever being present for 23 any group discussion? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Which ones? Page 555 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Do you recall him having been there when 3 Joey Hamson had his violent episode that the cops were 4 called for? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q Do you recall him ever being there when 7 Justin Beasley wore women's clothing? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Do you recall him being there for any of 10 the events relating to Lindsey Kleeberger? 11 A I don't know. 12 Q Was he involved in the school in any way? 13 A No. 14 Q Was he involved in offering therapy in any 15 way? 16 A No. 17 Q Okay. So to the best of your knowledge, 18 the only thing he can testify about with regards to 19 The Whitmore Academy was what happened while he was 20 performing the role of night security? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Okay. Do you have any sense of how the 23 events that would have happened while he was being 24 night security would relate to this lawsuit? 25 A No, I have no idea. Page 556 1 Q Okay. Susan Likes we have talked about 2 off and on. Have you talked to her about this 3 lawsuit? 4 A Yes, I have. 5 Q When have you talked to her about this 6 lawsuit? 7 A Not as much as I'd like to because she's 8 been gone a lot. 9 Q Where has she been? 10 A She was in China and she was in Alaska and 11 she was -- she goes a lot to Washington, D.C. Her 12 husband travels a lot and she goes with him. She's a 13 grandmother. Her mother lives with her. She has a 14 lot of married children with grandkids. So, you know, 15 she has a full schedule with grandkids. 16 Q Let me go back to John Gledhill for just a 17 moment. I forgot to ask something. Did you pay John 18 Gledhill? 19 A I don't know how much or what. 20 Q Was he paid? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q Okay. Back to Susan Likes, you said 23 before that she was the administrator over the 24 educational program; is that right? 25 A Yes, she was. Page 557 1 Q From when to when? 2 A I don't know. 3 Q We talked about her involvement with the 4 Landmark kids yesterday. Do you recall Susan Likes 5 ever being present for any group sessions? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Which ones? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Do you recall whether she was present for 10 the group sessions involving Lindsey Kleeberger and 11 the stolen money? 12 A I don't know, but I know that she took a 13 lot of extra time with Lindsey. 14 Q Okay. What did she do with Lindsey? 15 A She took her to the hospital for us a 16 couple of times and she talked to her folks. And she 17 cares a lot about all of the kids, but she really 18 tried to help Lindsey see what she was doing. 19 Q Is she a certified teacher? 20 A She has different degrees, but I'm not 21 sure what her certifications are. 22 Q Did she serve in the capacity of a teacher 23 when you were running your school from 2004 on? 24 A No, she didn't. 25 Q She was never a teacher in your program? Page 558 1 A Not that I recall. 2 Q Did she have any involvement in giving the 3 kids transcripts? 4 A Yes, she did. 5 Q What involvement? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Did she have any involvement in giving the 8 kids grades? 9 A No. 10 Q Did she have any involvement in 11 disciplining the kids? 12 A No. 13 Q Did she have any involvement in providing 14 therapy for the kids? 15 A No. 16 Q Did she have any involvement in providing 17 counseling for the kids? 18 A I -- that's a really broad question, but I 19 don't know what you're talking about. 20 Q Why is that broad? 21 A What are you talking about, counseling? 22 Q What does the term counseling mean to you? 23 A Counseling to me sounds like therapy. 24 Q Okay. So did she have any involvement in 25 counseling, using that definition, using your Page 559 1 definition? 2 A No, she was their friend. 3 Q Do you have any understanding of what 4 she's expected to testify about? 5 A I have no idea. 6 Q Have you talked to her about testifying? 7 A No, I haven't. 8 Q Will Biesinger, he's number three on this 9 list, who is he? 10 A He was the science teacher. 11 Q From when to when? 12 A From -- I don't know, whenever the school 13 got started until it got stopped. 14 Q Do you know what his qualifications are to 15 teach science? 16 A Yeah. Yes. 17 Q What? 18 A He is a certified teacher for the State of 19 Utah. 20 Q Do you know if he had taught at some other 21 school? 22 A He taught at Juab County, Juab High 23 School. 24 Q And where is he now, do you know? 25 A And he was a coach for a couple of our Page 560 1 boys. 2 Q What did he coach? 3 A Football, until they wouldn't let our kids 4 play football at Juab County. 5 Q Did your boys play football at Juab 6 County? 7 A Well, a couple of them wanted to, but they 8 didn't like the sorts of our kids. 9 Q Did any of your boys ever play football? 10 A They worked out for three months just to 11 be told they couldn't. 12 Q Did they ever put on pads and a uniform 13 for Juab High School? 14 A Yes. 15 Q So they were on the team? 16 A They thought. 17 Q And then they were kicked off the team? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Who are you talking about, which boys? 20 A A couple of boys back in the beginning. I 21 can't remember. 22 Q What years? 23 A I can't remember. In the beginning. Like 24 during Justin's time, Busa. 25 Q Were any of the plaintiffs? Page 561 1 A No. 2 Q Okay. Other than being the science 3 teacher, what role did he play at The Whitmore 4 Academy? 5 A That's it. Not very much. 6 Q Was he involved in therapy? 7 A No. 8 Q Was he involved in the groups? 9 A No. 10 Q Tom Hudson, number four, who's Tom Hudson? 11 A He was the principal. 12 Q From when to when? 13 A I don't know. 14 Q Is this after you decided to start running 15 your own school? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Did he have any involvement in the program 18 prior to that? 19 A No. He is from Payson and if you're from 20 Payson, you pretty much know the Sudweekses. I think 21 he worked under my grandfather and he had much respect 22 for him. 23 Q Is your family from Payson as well? 24 A No, they are not. 25 Q But your grandfather is from Payson? Page 562 1 A My kids' grandfather. My husband's 2 father. 3 Q Okay. So you mean Mark's father? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Not yours? 6 A I'm sorry. 7 Q That's okay. Other than being a principal 8 with the school, what role did he play at The Whitmore 9 Academy? 10 A That's it. 11 Q Was he involved in therapy? 12 A No. 13 Q Was he involved in the groups? 14 A No. 15 Q Do you know how much he was paid? 16 A A lot. 17 Q How much? 18 A I don't know, but it was more than 19 everybody else. 20 Q Can you give me a ballpark? 21 A No, because he's really good at what he 22 does. He also works for the State of Utah. 23 Q Works or worked? 24 A Worked at the time. 25 Q While he was the principal at your school? Page 563 1 A I don't know. I don't think so. 2 Q Was it a full-time job for him working at 3 your school? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q You were there all the time, right? 6 A Yes, but I was a very busy person and I 7 was more concerned about my responsibilities. 8 Q Were you aware of who else was there while 9 you were there? 10 A Of course, I just told you he was there. 11 Q How many hours a day was Tom there? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Was he there for more or less than eight 14 hours? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Okay. Have you had any communications 17 with him regarding this lawsuit? 18 A No, I haven't. 19 Q You've never asked him to testify? 20 A No, I have not. 21 Q Joe Kelly, who's Joe Kelly? 22 A Joe Kelly is the principal of Landmark 23 High School. 24 Q When is the first time you remember having 25 any contact with Joe Kelly? Page 564 1 A When we went to -- I can't tell you. I 2 don't know. 3 Q How soon after arriving in Utah did you 4 first have contact with Joe Kelly? 5 A When we decided to get the school through 6 Landmark High School. 7 Q Did he ever have any -- other than his 8 work with Landmark High School, did he ever have any 9 direct involvement at The Whitmore program? 10 A No. 11 Q He was never involved in your therapy. 12 A No. 13 Q Never involved in your groups? 14 A No. 15 Q Did you ever pay him directly -- 16 A No. 17 Q -- other than the money you paid to 18 Landmark for the schooling? 19 A No. 20 Q Did he have any kids that came to your 21 school? 22 A No. We had kids that went to his school. 23 Q Have you ever had any communications with 24 him regarding this lawsuit? 25 A No. Page 565 1 Q Communications of any kind? 2 A No. 3 Q Do you know if Mark has had any 4 communications with him regarding this lawsuit? 5 A No, I haven't seen Joe Kelly since our 6 last kids graduated. 7 Q And I'm not talking about seeing him, I'm 8 talking about having had any communications with him. 9 A No, I haven't talked to him on the phone 10 or anything. 11 Q Do you know if Mark has had any 12 communications with him? 13 A Probably not. 14 Q Do you have any sense of what it is he's 15 going to testify about? 16 A No, I have no idea. 17 Q Okay. Who's Seth Sorenson? 18 A I told you yesterday, he's the man who 19 takes care of the packets for Landmark High School. 20 Q Do you know if he's still employed by -- 21 A I have no idea. 22 Q You need to let me finish my question. 23 A Oh, sorry. 24 Q Do you know if he's still employed by Nebo 25 School District? Page 566 1 A I don't know. 2 Q Have you ever had any personal 3 conversations with Seth Sorenson? 4 A Since when? 5 Q Ever. 6 A Of course. 7 Q How often? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q When? 10 A When the kids would get packets. 11 Q Did he accept any of the money for the 12 packets? 13 A I doubt it. 14 MR. FERGUSON: Do you mean was the money 15 handed to him? 16 MR. TENNEY: Yeah. 17 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Did he have any 18 involvement in getting the money? 19 A No. 20 Q Did he have any involvement with your 21 program, other than with Nebo School District and 22 Landmark High School? 23 A No. 24 Q He wasn't involved in any groups? 25 A No. Page 567 1 Q He wasn't involved in any therapy? 2 A No. 3 Q Next page. Rick Lee, who is Rick Lee? 4 A Principal. 5 Q At? 6 A At The Whitmore Academy. 7 Q From when to when? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Give me a ballpark. 10 A After Tom Hudson. 11 Q They didn't work concurrently? 12 A Nope. 13 Q Why did Tom Hudson stop working for you? 14 A Because he -- his State job became a very 15 big deal, like they were opening something new. 16 Something big happened with the State and they needed 17 him. 18 Q So he was doing the two jobs concurrently? 19 A No, I believe they hired him back or 20 something like that. 21 Q So Tom Hudson worked for you for a period 22 of time and then Rick Lee took over; is that right? 23 A That's right. 24 Q Do you have any understanding of what Rick 25 Lee's qualifications to be a principal are? Page 568 1 A Well, he's from Payson too. 2 Q So that's a qualification for being a 3 principal? 4 MR. FERGUSON: That works for me. 5 MR. TENNEY: I mean, I like people from 6 Payson, but... 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Don't they have Onion Days? 8 MR. TENNEY: I think they might. 9 THE WITNESS: Did you go? 10 MS. SHAPIRO: I haven't been to Onion Days 11 but I know of them because -- 12 MS. SUDWEEKS: You like onions? 13 THE WITNESS: He must be good because he 14 came highly recommended. 15 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) By whom? 16 A I don't know. I can't remember. 17 Q You just remember that he was recommended, 18 but you can't remember by whom? 19 A That's right. 20 Q Do you remember what the recommendations 21 were? 22 A He's highly recommended. 23 Q Okay. Anything more specific than that, 24 or is that the extent of it? 25 A That's the extent. Page 569 1 Q Do you have any understanding of whether 2 he was there for any group sessions? 3 A I don't think so. 4 Q Do you have any understanding of whether 5 he was there for any therapy of any kind, group, 6 individual, anything? 7 A I don't recall. 8 Q As principals of your school, were Rick 9 Lee or Tom Hudson given any punishment authority over 10 your students? 11 A I told you not to use that word. 12 Q Well, I like the word. 13 A No, they did not have control to serve 14 consequences -- 15 Q So if a student was acting up -- 16 A -- on their own. It would be a staff 17 decision. 18 Q So they would have to report it to you and 19 then together you'd figure out what to do? 20 A Yes. 21 Q They didn't have any independent authority 22 over consequences? 23 A Not that I recall. 24 Q Okay. Have you had any communications 25 with Rick Lee regarding this lawsuit? Page 570 1 A No. It's embarrassing. 2 Q What's embarrassing? 3 A To not have the school functioning right 4 now. 5 Q What's your understanding of why the 6 school is no longer functioning? 7 A Because we don't have any kids that go to 8 it. 9 Q And why don't you have any kids that go to 10 it? 11 A Because it's an emotional situation. 12 Couldn't do it right now. 13 MR. TENNEY: All right. Let's go ahead 14 and mark another exhibit. 15 (EXHIBIT 32 WAS MARKED.) 16 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'll show you what's been 17 marked as Deposition Exhibit 32. Take a look at this 18 document for a minute and I'm going to ask you a 19 question about it, a couple of questions about it. 20 Tell me when you've looked at it and had a chance to 21 read it. 22 Have you had a chance to read it? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q This looks to me to be an e-mail. I'll 25 just go ahead and tell you where I got it. It was Page 571 1 forwarded to me from Leah Schacherer. You'll see my 2 name at the top. It comes from my e-mail. 3 Did you write this e-mail? 4 A I did. 5 Q The date on this e-mail, it says that it 6 was sent in January of 2006; is that right? Was that 7 when you sent this e-mail? 8 A Six? 9 Q That's what it says. 10 A Can I talk to my people? 11 Q No. 12 A No, to my lawyer. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 14 MR. FERGUSON: You can if you want. 15 MR. TENNEY: There's a question pending 16 though. 17 MR. FERGUSON: I don't care. 18 MR. TENNEY: I do. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. But I'm wondering, is 20 this the one that you talked to me about? 21 MR. FERGUSON: Don't ask us questions. If 22 you can answer his questions, answer his questions. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. Honestly, I can't say 24 that this is an e-mail that I sent. 25 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Are you in a position to Page 572 1 deny that this e-mail was sent on January 19, 2006, 2 1:45 a.m.? 3 A I'm just in a position to say I don't know 4 because the date confuses me. 5 Q What confuses you about the date? 6 A I know that it was around Christmastime at 7 one point and, like I told you, I don't remember dates 8 very well, and one of the kids had told me that Leah 9 was having a really hard time and she wanted to kill 10 herself and so I felt inclined to let her know that I 11 don't hate her and that I love her and was hoping she 12 was okay. But I thought that was like a year ago. 13 That says 2006, so I'm not sure that this is mine. 14 Q Well, we're in November of 2006 and 15 January of 2006 would almost be a year ago. 16 A No, I mean a year ago from -- I don't know 17 when this whole thing started, but I thought it was 18 like soon after it started. 19 Q Were you ever ordered not to contact the 20 victims in the criminal case? 21 A Well, that's my point. When I did say 22 something to Leah, I was told by our attorney that I'm 23 not supposed to talk to anyone. 24 Q And you were told that after you had said 25 something to her? Page 573 1 A Yes. 2 Q And so the "said something to her," that's 3 what this e-mail is. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Prior to sending this e-mail, were you 6 aware that there was an order in place prohibiting you 7 from contacting the criminal victims? 8 A No, I have not contacted Leah since I was 9 told not to. 10 Q Okay. That wasn't my question. Prior to 11 having written this e-mail and sent it, were you aware 12 that there had been an order in place by a judge for 13 you not to contact the criminal victims? 14 A I just told you, after I was told that I 15 can't contact any of these kids, I have never 16 contacted them. 17 Q When were you first made aware that there 18 was an order in place for you not to talk to them? 19 A I don't remember. 20 Q Was that before you sent this e-mail? 21 MR. FERGUSON: Well, your question assumes 22 there is an order. There's no foundation that there's 23 an order. 24 MR. TENNEY: Well, she just said that she 25 was told not to contact them. Page 574 1 MR. FERGUSON: She was told by her lawyer 2 not to contact them. That doesn't mean there's an 3 order. 4 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Have you ever been 5 informed that there was an order from a judge for you 6 not to contact them? 7 A I was told by my lawyer that it would not 8 be wise for me to contact the kids. 9 Q Other than that communication with the 10 lawyer -- I'm asking something very specific. 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Have you ever been informed that a judge 13 had ordered you not to contact the victims in the 14 criminal case? 15 A No, not that I recall. 16 Q Have you ever been informed that the 17 county attorney had asked you not to contact the 18 victims? Have you ever been informed that that 19 request came from the county attorney or the judge? 20 A Not that I recall. 21 Q And prior to sending this e-mail, were you 22 aware that such a request had been made by anybody? 23 A I wouldn't send the e-mail if I was told 24 not to do that. 25 Q So your testimony is that when you sent Page 575 1 this you had no idea that you were not supposed to be 2 contacting Leah? 3 A That's right. 4 Q Was this e-mail sent after the civil suit 5 had been filed? 6 A I don't know. 7 Q Well, you said before -- you talked about 8 why you sent it, that you had been told by some kids 9 that Leah was thinking of hurting herself and that you 10 wanted to let her know that you loved her. Do you 11 recall if this was before or after the civil suit was 12 filed? 13 A I just told you, the only thing I know for 14 sure is that if I was told not to contact the kids 15 there's no way that I would contact them after I was 16 told not to. 17 Q Okay. And we've moved past that question. 18 I'm now asking if this e-mail happened before or after 19 the civil suit. 20 A Does that not answer that question? 21 Q No, it doesn't answer that question. I'm 22 asking if this e-mail was sent before or after the 23 civil suit was filed. 24 A Well, if I was told not to contact the 25 students -- Page 576 1 Q I'm not asking about when you were told. 2 A This must have been before. 3 MR. FERGUSON: Cheryl, do you know when 4 the civil suit, this lawsuit that we've spent the last 5 day and a half -- 6 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Do you know when it was 8 filed? 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 MS. SHAPIRO: Is that fair enough? 11 MR. TENNEY: That's fair enough. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: And, Mr. Tenney, I'm 13 assuming that Leah Schacherer had forwarded this 14 e-mail to you, correct? 15 MR. TENNEY: That's my understanding, 16 yeah. 17 MS. SHAPIRO: And that would be an 18 attorney-client privilege; is that correct? 19 MR. TENNEY: We're waiving it with respect 20 to this e-mail. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: And that's what I want to 22 clarify. Are you waiving your attorney-client 23 privilege with regard to all communications with 24 Ms. Schacherer and her family or just with regard to 25 this document? Page 577 1 MR. TENNEY: We're waiving the 2 attorney-client privilege with respect to this 3 document. 4 MS. SHAPIRO: Okay. 5 MR. TENNEY: But I'll note for the record 6 that this document doesn't contain any communications 7 between Ms. Schacherer and myself. It's simply 8 something she forwarded to me. 9 MR. FERGUSON: Can you tell me whether 10 this date is the date it was forwarded to you? 11 MR. TENNEY: I don't know that so I can't 12 tell you that. 13 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) When you wrote to Leah 14 that you loved her and that you hoped she was okay, 15 were you in any way trying to influence her in terms 16 of her participation in this suit against you? 17 A Actually, when I wrote this it was -- I 18 don't believe that it was January 19, 2006 because we 19 were -- I believe we were either on our way to Mexico 20 or we were in Mexico. And when I did write what I 21 wrote, it was around Christmastime I think a year 22 before. 23 MS. SHAPIRO: Cheryl, just answer his 24 question. With this e-mail and the content of it, 25 were you in any way trying to influence Leah's Page 578 1 participation in this lawsuit? 2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely not. 3 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Were you trying to 4 influence Leah's participation in any action against 5 you, criminal, civil, or otherwise? 6 A One hundred percent no. I love my 7 children. 8 Q Were you trying to garner sympathy from 9 Leah Schacherer? 10 A Absolutely not. 11 MR. TENNEY: Okay. All right. Let me 12 show you a different e-mail. This will be our last 13 exhibit. Will you mark this as 33? 14 (EXHIBIT 33 WAS MARKED.) 15 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Ms. Sudweeks, I'm handing 16 you what's been marked as Deposition Exhibit 33. This 17 is an e-mail, at least according to the subject line 18 on it, that you sent to Joyce Harris on December 1, 19 2004. I'm going to ask you a few questions about it. 20 I apologize for the copy. It's the best I can come up 21 with. 22 A Yeah, it's hard to read. 23 Q Can you read it? 24 A I can make it out. 25 Q Okay. I'm going to give you a minute to Page 579 1 read it before I ask you a few questions about it, so 2 tell me when you've had a chance to read it. 3 A Can you answer one question while I finish 4 reading? Was this the day after she took Zeta? 5 Q Well, I'm just working off of what the 6 document says. The document says that it's an e-mail 7 from you to Joyce Harris on December 1st of 2004. 8 A So it was about -- 9 MS. SHAPIRO: Cheryl, just go ahead and 10 read it. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. I think it's the day 12 after she took her. 13 MS. SHAPIRO: Counsel, I would question 14 the relevance of this if the Harrises are no longer a 15 party. 16 MR. TENNEY: Well, we've had plenty of 17 questions about the Harrises after they left and we 18 had several of the plaintiffs' depositions that 19 occurred after they had left and we'll get to the 20 relevance in a second. 21 MS. SHAPIRO: I established the relevance, 22 as far as your clients, and the influence and how they 23 gained knowledge and participation in this lawsuit 24 through the Harrises. That part is relevant. 25 MR. TENNEY: Okay. I haven't had a chance Page 580 1 to ask any questions about it yet, so I suspect that 2 at some point you will see the relevance. And if not, 3 we'll deal with that as we have to deal with it. 4 THE WITNESS: This reminds me of a lot of 5 stuff. 6 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) And we'll talk about it. 7 Have you had a chance to finish it yet or are you 8 still going? 9 Are you done reading? 10 A Yeah. 11 Q First question, did you write this e-mail? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Does the date seem accurate to you? 14 A Yes, if that's the day after she took her. 15 Q You don't have any basis for disputing 16 that this e-mail was sent on the day that it says it 17 was sent? 18 A Well, I do if it's not the day after she 19 took her. 20 Q Do you remember when Joyce took Zeta? 21 A No, I don't. 22 Q Assuming that to be a correct date, 23 assuming this to be the right time frame, do you have 24 any basis for disputing that this e-mail is what it 25 says it is, an e-mail from you to Joyce on December 1, Page 581 1 2004? 2 A No. 3 Q Okay. What I'm concerned about is at the 4 very end. I'm going to read you a portion of it and 5 then I'm going to ask you a few questions about it, 6 okay? If you go down to the very end of it -- 7 A This is the letter that she sent to 8 President Hinckley. 9 Q This is the letter that who sent to 10 President Hinckley? 11 A Joyce Harris. 12 Q How do you know that Joyce Harris sent 13 this e-mail to President Hinckley? 14 A Would you like me to show you the reply to 15 this letter? 16 Q Do you have it with you? 17 A I don't have it with me, but it's on that 18 hard drive. 19 Q Well, I will certainly request that you 20 not do anything to destroy or alter or hide it and we 21 will be issuing our request for that report. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Does that sound fair? 24 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 25 Q Okay. If you look down towards the bottom Page 582 1 of this e-mail from you to Joyce, on the right-hand 2 side there's a sentence that starts -- 3 A Do you mind reading the whole thing so 4 that I make sure that I've got the words right. 5 Q Well, I'm going to read you the portion 6 that I'm concerned about. But we will attach this to 7 the deposition and you're free to -- 8 A Seriously, I need you to read the whole 9 thing. 10 Q You'd like me to read the whole thing into 11 the record? 12 A Yes, I would. 13 MR. TENNEY: Do you want to read the whole 14 thing into the record? 15 MR. FERGUSON: It's up to you. It's your 16 depo. 17 THE WITNESS: It won't take long. 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Joyce, this is going to 19 be -- Cheryl, this is going to be in the record. I'm 20 going to ask you the questions about the portion I'm 21 going to asking you about and I'll read you the 22 portions I'm concerned about. Is that fair? 23 A No. I mean, yeah, if that's what you're 24 going to do. 25 Q That's what I'm going to do. Page 583 1 A I would really, really prefer that you 2 could read the whole thing so it was in perspective. 3 I don't think you get the perspective of the letter. 4 Q Well, here's what we're going to do with 5 that. It's my deposition, I get to ask the questions 6 I want to ask. If at any point your counsel wants to 7 read the rest of it into the record, they're free to 8 do so. It will certainly be there in the deposition 9 for anybody to view it who wants to. Is that fair? 10 A That's fair, if that's what you want. 11 Q That's what we're going to do. I'm going 12 to read you the portion that I'm concerned about, 13 okay? 14 A Okay. Then I'll give you my answer, too. 15 Q That's what we'll do, yeah. 16 On the right-hand side, about five or six 17 lines from the bottom, starting with the words "Do you 18 think," do you see where I am, about four lines from 19 the top? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Four or five lines from the top. 22 A Yes. 23 Q It reads as follow -- and follow along to 24 make sure I don't read this incorrectly. "Do you 25 think if you make us look bad it will make you look Page 584 1 better? The ball is in your court. Do you want a 2 war? Just say the words. There are 40 warriors here 3 waiting for the sign. They are ready to contact your 4 neighbors, your workplace. They have all kinds of 5 ways of letting the word out. Please reply soon." 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A Yes, you did. 8 Q Who were the 40 warriors? 9 A That's what we call ourselves, Saturday's 10 Warriors. 11 Q So who are they? 12 A Joyce had a question about our mission 13 statement, and our mission statements says that we are 14 Saturday's Warriors and she referred to us as warriors 15 many times in her e-mails. 16 Q Well, here you're referring to yourself as 17 warriors; is that right? 18 A Yes, because that's how she talked. 19 Q And it came from your mission statement, 20 right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q So basically you were referring to 23 yourself as warriors? 24 A No, Saturday's Warriors. 25 Q Saturday's Warriors? Page 585 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you say Saturday's Warriors here? 3 A Uh-huh (affirmative). She wanted me to 4 explain to her what Saturday's Warriors meant. 5 Q Well, now I don't see any reference to 6 Saturday's Warriors in this e-mail, do you? 7 A That's why it's out of context. 8 Q Do you see any reference in context in 9 this e-mail to Saturday's Warriors? 10 A Well, let me read it to you and maybe you 11 can see what I'm talking about. 12 Q Please do so. 13 A "I'm amazed" -- 14 Q Where are you reading from? 15 A From the beginning. 16 Q Okay. 17 A "I'm amazed that you are taking so much 18 time to try to degrade us. Are you that hateful? 19 What in the world are you trying to believe? I 20 thought that you were concerned about your reputation. 21 I will be calling CPS in your state to report what the 22 kids and I saw that night you came in like a wild 23 woman to drag your daughter home against her will. It 24 was a nightmare for everyone involved. If you want to 25 go to war, you better look at yourself before you get Page 586 1 in way too deep. Zeta has a lot of friends here. 2 There were a lot of witnesses that night. They regret 3 ever believing you when you said she was full of lies 4 and wished they would have listened when she insisted 5 over and over that she was telling the truth and how 6 terrified she was of you. It was obvious when she 7 made her desperate attempt to run from you and into 8 the mansion where she felt it was safe. The girls 9 can't erase the memory of the look on Zeta's face when 10 she begged us not to let you take her or the horror in 11 her eyes as you pulled her by the hair and pushed her 12 down the stairs because she was trying to hold on to 13 what she knew was real. From the minute you came 14 through the mansion doors at 2:00 a.m. and told me to 15 kiss my -- kiss your ass, to the last thing I heard 16 you tell Zeta that you were doing is put her in 17 jail -- that you were going to put her in jail because 18 of the way she was acting, you're a belittling, 19 controllingwarrior hateful, mean woman who should 20 never have the power or to do what you have done or 21 what I saw you do to any child that night. You brag 22 about how much money you have and what a caring woman 23 you are. Take a look at what you're doing. You are 24 trying to"... 25 MR. FERGUSON: What. Page 587 1 THE WITNESS: "What are you trying to 2 accomplish? What good do you really think you will 3 accomplish? Can't you see that Zeta was truly 4 starting to change her paradigm? Do you think we're 5 going to just lay down and let you try to destroy our 6 reputation? No, we can't. We are going -- we are 7 doing too much good. Joyce, there really are good 8 people in the world. Do you think if you make us look 9 bad it will make you look better? The ball is in your 10 court, so do you want a war? Just say the word. 11 There are 40 warriors here waiting for the sign 12 that" -- 13 MR. TENNEY: They. 14 THE WITNESS: "They are ready to contact 15 your neighbors, your workplace, and they have all 16 kinds of ways of letting the word out. Please reply 17 soon." 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So where's the reference 19 to Saturday's Warriors in what you just read? 20 A I'll have to give you that in another 21 e-mail. 22 Q Okay. Is there a reference to Saturday's 23 Warrior in this e-mail? 24 A Probably 10 or 15 times she wanted to know 25 what Saturday's Warriors meant. Page 588 1 MR. FERGUSON: In this e-mail. 2 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) We're going to be here 3 for a real long time if we don't narrow our answers to 4 the questions. 5 A No, in this e-mail there's no reference to 6 the Saturday's Warrior. 7 Q But your testimony is that the 40 warriors 8 reference is referring back to Saturday's Warriors 9 which comes from your mission statement? 10 A Absolutely, that's why I said in the 11 e-mail and that's why I wanted to read it to you. 12 There are good people in the world. 13 Q Right. So the 40 warriors, then, include 14 all of your students; is that right? 15 A No, there was a couple of parents that 16 were actually the ones that wanted -- they lived by 17 her and they wanted to go to her workplace. 18 Q Who lived by her? 19 A Mary Gentile. 20 Q Okay. Does the 40 warriors reference 21 include your students? 22 A Yes, we are Saturday's Warriors. 23 Q Okay. Let me walk through the list of 24 students. I'm working off of Deposition Exhibit 31. 25 If you go to page 3(B), there's a list of students, Page 589 1 former students of yours who are expected to be 2 called. I just want to make sure this is clear. 3 When you talk about 40 warriors, are you 4 talking about Don Nelson? 5 A We're talking about all of the students 6 that were there, including the plaintiffs, including 7 Don Nelson, Nathan McKinely, Kristin Dunn, Mark Ponte, 8 Caitlyn Loggins, and every one of the kids that you're 9 defending. 10 Q Stephen Estes? 11 A Oh, sorry. 12 Q There's two pages. 13 A Is he on the other page? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes, Stephen probably. 16 Q Evan Sussman? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Lori Meier? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. Now, according to this e-mail, as I 21 understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the point 22 here is that in response to Joyce making allegations 23 against you, you were then going to have your 40 24 warriors, to include all of these expected witnesses, 25 you were going to have these warriors tell Joyce's Page 590 1 neighbors, workplace and such about the bad things 2 Joyce has done. Did I read that right? 3 A No, you did not. 4 Q Okay. How did I read it wrong? 5 A That's what they wanted to do. They were 6 upset. She traumatized those kids. They were so 7 upset, those were the things they wanted. They had 8 actually gone to Google, they found her house, they 9 came to me and they said Cheryl, we can't allow this, 10 our school is too good. 11 And so I wrote her that e-mail trying to 12 find some kind of compromise where she could talk to 13 us rather than going on like she had accused us -- 14 what's the word, threatened us with. 15 Q So if Joyce was not going to cooperate 16 with you, then you were going to allow your warriors 17 to tell her friends, neighbors, workplace about the 18 things Joyce had done; is that right? 19 MR. FERGUSON: I think that misstates the 20 e-mail. 21 THE WITNESS: It totally misstates the 22 e-mail and I have a real big, huge problem with this 23 because this was a reply. 24 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm aware of that. Just 25 so the know, through the evidentiary process you'll be Page 591 1 allowed to submit whatever you want to submit. In 2 fact, we're requesting it so we can get copies of it. 3 A I hope I can find it. 4 Q I hope you can too. 5 A Obviously -- 6 Q But I just want to make sure I understand 7 what this is about and then we'll move on. 8 A Okay. I'm telling you what it's about. 9 She sent me an e-mail before I replied to her with 10 cc's on it to President Hinckley, to elder -- or 11 what's his name? Senator Garn, to County Attorney 12 Jared Eldridge, to four or five different people, and 13 it looked like she was trying to get some kind of war 14 going on. 15 Q Okay. And so if the war didn't stop, you 16 were going to allow the students to contact her 17 neighbors? 18 A No, I was letting her know what the 19 students wanted to do. Not only the students, but a 20 few parents. 21 Q Do you feel that you had the ability to 22 stop the students that were in your program at that 23 time from contacting her neighbors? 24 A I would never let the students contact her 25 neighbors. I was letting her know what the students Page 592 1 that were ready to go home wanted to do. 2 Q Would that have been against your values, 3 your values -- 4 A I'm not understanding your question. 5 Q You talked throughout this deposition 6 about the values that were sort of inherent in your 7 program, the values that you tried to teach the kids. 8 A And still are. 9 Q And still are. So would allowing these 10 students to have contacted a disgruntled parent's 11 neighbors to tell them about bad things this parent 12 had done, would that have comported with your values? 13 A See, you're not wording it to where I can 14 really answer it. 15 Q You can't give me a yes or no to that 16 yes-or-no question? 17 A No, I can't. Not unless you ask me -- 18 Q Would you have approved -- if Joyce or any 19 other disgruntled parents in her position had not 20 cooperated and not stopped making these allegations, 21 would you have approved of students who were currently 22 under your care telling that disgruntled parent's 23 neighbors about bad things that parent has done? 24 A Usually the way it's done is both sides of 25 the story are told and I think that's what I was Page 593 1 trying to say. 2 Q Well, why would the neighbors have been 3 involved? 4 A Her neighbors? 5 Q Yeah. 6 A Because she was the one that inferred that 7 she was contacting our neighbors. 8 Q So then you felt that it would be fair to 9 contact her neighbors? 10 A Well, that's how she communicates, so I 11 communicated back to her. 12 Q So would you have felt that that was 13 appropriate, to have students contact her neighbors to 14 tell her neighbors bad things that she had done? 15 A I would never have the students do 16 anything. That's what they were going to do. 17 Q Would you have felt that it was 18 appropriate to allow them to contact her neighbors to 19 tell them bad things she had done? 20 A I don't really think that I had a choice 21 in any of it. It's what they were going to do. 22 Q Well, now they were in your mansion in 23 Nephi, Utah; is that right? 24 A That's right. 25 Q And Joyce was in Texas at that point; is Page 594 1 that right? 2 A That's right. 3 Q So would you have taken any steps to have 4 stopped students from contacting her neighbors? 5 MR. FERGUSON: Calls for speculation. The 6 whole thing calls for speculation. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, and it's pretty 8 obvious to me that with the schedule we have, I really 9 doubt the kids would have time to do that. But with 10 the kids communicating what they saw, how they felt to 11 their parents, their parents were upset. Everyone 12 wanted to take a stand. 13 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) I'm aware of all that and 14 you've told me how upset the parents were and the 15 students were and I'm trying to get you to answer a 16 real specific question. Would that have been 17 consistent with the values of your program? 18 A No. 19 Q For the students who were in your program 20 to have contacted the neighbors of a disgruntled 21 parent and tell those neighbors bad things that the 22 disgruntled parent had done, would that have been 23 consistent with your values? 24 A I'm a peaceful warrior. 25 Q You're a peaceful warrior? Page 595 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I'm not the kind of warrior who would do 4 it. It's vindictive. 5 Q That doesn't even begin to answer the 6 question. The question is, would it have been 7 consistent with your values to have allowed students 8 who are currently under your care to contact the 9 neighbors of a disgruntled parent? Would that have 10 been consistent with your values? 11 A You want me to have a yes or no answer. 12 Q Yeah, I do. 13 A There isn't one. 14 Q Do you think there were circumstances in 15 which that would have been appropriate? 16 A I would not have had control. Mary 17 Gentile has a friend who was a newspaper reporter who 18 was going to put it on the news. I didn't want it to 19 go that far, so that's my way of telling Joyce. 20 Q I'm not talking Mary Gentile and I'm not 21 talking about any parents. I'm specifically talking 22 about the students who were under your care at that 23 time. 24 A You're not communicating with me the way 25 that I can understand it. Page 596 1 Q I'll try my best. I'm talking about the 2 students that were under your care at that time. 3 A And what's the question? 4 Q Would it have been consistent with the 5 values of your program for students who were under 6 your care to have contacted the neighbors of a 7 disgruntled parent to tell those neighbors bad things 8 about that parent? There's nothing complicated -- 9 A In this case, absolutely not. We are too 10 busy, number one. Number two, we don't spend our time 11 doing that. 12 Q Other than your business. I'm talking 13 about your values. Would that have been consistent 14 with your values? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. So then why did you send an e-mail 17 telling her that that was likely going to happen? 18 MR. FERGUSON: Just a second. It 19 mischaracterizes the e-mail, it mischaracterizes the 20 testimony and it's argumentative. 21 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Let me just read again 22 the portion I'm concerned about. You say to Joyce, 23 "The ball is in your court. Do you want a war? Just 24 say the word. There are 40 warriors here waiting for 25 the sign." Who was going to give them the sign? Page 597 1 A Okay. Go back to "The ball is in your 2 court." If the ball's in her court, obviously she 3 sent me the ball first. So I throw the ball back in 4 her court. What did she send me first? That she was 5 going to contact all these people. The officer that 6 stood there at the door that night heard her make all 7 these threats. 8 Q Could you have stopped the students from 9 contacting neighbors, yes or no? 10 A Yes, and I would have. 11 Q And you would have if she had not done 12 what? 13 A What? 14 Q What would have prompted you to stop the 15 students from contacting her neighbors? What did she 16 have to do? 17 MR. FERGUSON: We're well into the realm 18 of speculation here. There's no foundation for any of 19 these questions and, again, they're argumentative. 20 MS. SHAPIRO: And irrelevant. 21 MR. TENNEY: I completely disagree with 22 the foundation. She admitted that she wrote this 23 e-mail and I'm just trying to get her to explain what 24 she thought was going to happen, if Joyce did what. 25 THE WITNESS: I believe that it's very Page 598 1 hard to answer the question you're asking me unless 2 you have the e-mail that she sent me because obviously 3 you don't know -- I don't even know without that in 4 front of me. 5 MR. TENNEY: I'm just asking what you 6 meant in your e-mail. 7 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you without the 8 e-mail that was sent by her if the ball's in her 9 court. 10 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You can't tell me what 11 you meant unless you have an e-mail that Joyce wrote? 12 A Yes, because there were threats in Joyce's 13 e-mail. 14 Q Okay. 15 MR. FERGUSON: She has told you that the 16 students were anxious to take action and she was 17 trying to prevent the students from taking action. 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Are there circumstances 19 in which you would have approved those students taking 20 the action you're describing? 21 MR. FERGUSON: And that calls for 22 speculation. 23 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) And you can answer it. 24 Are there circumstances under which you would have 25 approved those students taking that action that you Page 599 1 have described in this e-mail? 2 A I still don't understand what you're 3 saying. 4 Q I don't know how to make that question 5 more clear. Can you imagine circumstances in which 6 that threat you would have allowed to have been 7 carried out by those students? 8 A When I asked her to reply soon, it was 9 because the threats that she had made to me when I 10 replied to this e-mail were she was going to go to 11 President Hinckley, or she had gone to President 12 Hinckley, she had gone to the county attorney, she had 13 her attorney, you guys, at that time and there was 14 four people on her cc, and those were the actions that 15 she was taking. 16 The only action that I could take back was 17 why don't you forget this nonsense and we'll talk 18 about it. 19 Q Okay. And you said that if she didn't 20 forget it, that the 40 warriors would be contacting 21 her neighbors? 22 MR. FERGUSON: It doesn't say that. 23 You're mischaracterizing the e-mail. 24 MR. TENNEY: That's directly what it says. 25 MR. FERGUSON: I'm not going to argue with Page 600 1 you about it. 2 MR. TENNEY: "Say the word. There are 40 3 warriors here waiting for the sign. They are ready to 4 contact your neighbors, your workplace. They have all 5 kinds of ways of letting the word out. Please reply 6 soon." 7 THE WITNESS: Say the word, communicate 8 with us because this is what they want to do. 9 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So if she didn't say the 10 word, what was going to happen? 11 MR. FERGUSON: Calls for speculation. 12 THE WITNESS: I had no control over it. 13 That's what they were going to do, not at my command. 14 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You had no control over 15 the students? 16 A I had no control over what Mary Gentile 17 wanted to do. I had no control over the students that 18 were leaving the program. 19 Q What about students that were in your 20 program, did you have control over them? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q So you could have stopped them from doing 23 this? 24 MR. FERGUSON: Did they do it is the whole 25 question that hasn't been asked and that's why this is Page 601 1 all speculation. I mean, you're -- 2 MR. TENNEY: I'm understanding that 3 objection. 4 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Did you have control over 5 the students that were in your program? 6 A Did I have control over Lindsey Kleeberger 7 when she was IM-ing her friends? 8 MR. FERGUSON: Don't argue with him, 9 Cheryl. If you have control over the students -- 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 MR. FERGUSON: -- say yes. If you don't, 12 say no. 13 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You don't have control 14 over the students in your program? 15 A I tried to have control, but no, I don't 16 get complete control. 17 Q All right. We'll move off this. Let's go 18 back to Exhibit 31. This is the witness list. A 19 couple of questions about each of the witnesses and 20 we'll be where we are. 21 The first witness that is listed here is a 22 girl named Dawn Nelson. I'm assuming it's a girl. Is 23 Dawn Nelson a girl? 24 A Yes, she is. 25 Q Okay. I'm on page three. Page 602 1 When was Dawn Nelson a part of your 2 program? 3 A I don't know. 4 Q Do you have any sense of when she was a 5 part of your program? 6 A She was there when Joey was there, I 7 believe. 8 Q Joey Hamson? 9 A I believe. 10 Q But you don't know? 11 A No, I don't. 12 Q Have you had any communications with Dawn 13 Nelson since she left your program? 14 A I haven't talked to Dawn for -- she 15 started college and I haven't talked to her for 16 months. 17 Q Other than talking to her, have you had 18 any sort of communication with her? 19 A Yeah, the kids usually send e-mails and 20 say hi. 21 Q Has Dawn Nelson sent e-mails to you? 22 A I don't remember. 23 Q You don't remember whether Dawn Nelson has 24 ever sent an e-mail to you since she left the program? 25 A I couldn't tell you exactly. Page 603 1 Q Could you tell me not exactly? 2 A I just did. I just said most of the kids 3 send e-mails to tell me where they are, what they're 4 doing and that they love me. 5 Q Sounds good. What's your understanding -- 6 I don't want to know anything about Dawn Nelson's 7 medical or psychological background. Other than 8 that -- and let me make that qualification for all the 9 questions I'm about to ask for each of these 10 witnesses. I don't want you to get into their 11 personal medical and/or psychological background so as 12 to avoid the fight that I imagine we would have had. 13 Other than that stuff, do you have any 14 understanding of why Dawn Nelson was sent to your 15 program? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Let's go off the record for 17 a minute. 18 (Discussion off the record.) 19 THE WITNESS: I don't. 20 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You don't have any memory 21 of why she was there? 22 A Well, I have two ways of looking at that, 23 why she was there that they wrote down or why she was 24 there because of problems with mom and dad. 25 Q Why she was there because of what who Page 604 1 wrote down? 2 A When parents admit their kids, they write 3 down reasons why they think the school will be good 4 for them. 5 Q Is that on the intake form, is that what 6 that is? 7 A I think so. 8 Q You testified earlier that you never 9 looked at the intake form. 10 A So? 11 Q But now you're saying that you have some 12 memory of why Dawn Nelson was there because of what 13 was written on the intake form? 14 A No, I never said that. 15 Q Okay. Did you ever look at Dawn Nelson's 16 intake form? 17 A I don't think I did. 18 Q So do you have any understanding of why 19 she was there, based on her intake form? 20 A That was hard to understand because Dawn's 21 a pretty good kid and she wasn't involved with drugs 22 and all that stuff. 23 Q Okay. How long was she there? 24 A She did her year. 25 Q Did she stick around after her year? Page 605 1 A I don't think so. 2 Q Do you have any memory of that? 3 A No, I don't. 4 Q While she was there, did she break any 5 rules? 6 A Most of the kids broke rules, but I 7 couldn't tell you exactly. 8 Q Can you tell me if Dawn Nelson broke any 9 rules? 10 A I said I couldn't tell you exactly. 11 Q You've talked before about kids having 12 broken rules but you couldn't remember specifics. 13 A Yes, but you're talking about Dawn Nelson 14 and I'm telling you that I don't remember. 15 Q You don't remember whether she broke any 16 rules? 17 A I don't. 18 Q Do you remember her being the subject of 19 any group discussions? 20 A Don't remember. 21 Q Do you remember any consequences that were 22 put upon Dawn Nelson at any time? 23 A Not Dawn. 24 Q She was a pretty obedient kid? 25 A She was quiet. Page 606 1 Q Do you remember any instances in which she 2 was dishonest in any way? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q Okay. Describe her personality for me. 5 Give me some sense of who she is. 6 A She's one of my kids that I love. 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Answer the question, Cheryl. 8 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to. Her 9 personality is wonderful. 10 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Is she outgoing? Is she 11 introverted? Is she talkative? What is she? 12 A She was a very introverted person when she 13 came, I believe, but she seemed to gain a lot of 14 confidence when she lived with us. 15 Q Do you have any sense of what it is that 16 she's going to testify about at trial? 17 A I have no idea. 18 Q Have you had any communications with her 19 of any kind regarding this lawsuit? 20 A No, I have not. 21 Q Are you aware of whether Mark has had any 22 communications with her of any kind regarding this 23 lawsuit? 24 A I'm sure he hasn't. He doesn't talk as 25 much to the kids as I do. Page 607 1 Q Do you have any sense of how it is that 2 she came to be associated with this lawsuit as a 3 witness? 4 A Maybe luck of the draw. I don't know. 5 MR. FERGUSON: Don't guess. 6 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) You have no idea how her 8 name ended up on this list? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q Okay. Do you know how she was educated? 11 A Private schools, I believe. 12 Q Do you know how she was educated while she 13 was under your care? 14 A Oh. 15 Q Thank you. I'll try to be more specific. 16 A Thank you. She went to The Whitmore 17 Academy under -- when it was a school. 18 Q So she was there from 2004 on, sometime in 19 that range? 20 A During that time, yeah. 21 Q Can you think of anything else that is 22 significant about Dawn Nelson that you would like me 23 to know? 24 A I don't really think there's anything I 25 can tell you. Page 608 1 Q Nate McKinely is number two on your list. 2 When was Nate McKinely under your care? 3 A He left -- I remember this. He left the 4 week after, I think, Joey came. 5 Q Joey Hamson? 6 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 7 Q So he crossed over with Joey? 8 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 9 Q Was he there at Lake Powell when Joey 10 arrived? 11 A Yes, he was. 12 Q Do you remember him and Joey interacting 13 at all in Lake Powell? 14 A I know he did not like Joey because Joey 15 was racist to Nate. He's a Samoan. 16 Q Nathan McKinely is Samoan? 17 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 18 Q Okay. You said that they overlapped for a 19 week, so you're saying in that week he developed a 20 dislike for Joey? 21 A Nate is very opinionated. 22 Q Do you have any sense -- other than 23 medical or psychological reasons, do you have any 24 sense of why Nathan McKinely was sent to your program? 25 A He was starting down the wrong path, I Page 609 1 believe. 2 Q What path? 3 A The path most 13 year olds start to take 4 until they're -- 5 Q What path do most 13 year olds start to 6 take that he took? 7 A Rebellion. 8 Q Do you know if he had any criminal 9 background? 10 A I don't think any of our kids did. 11 Q Do you know if Nate McKinely had any 12 criminal background? 13 A Not that I know of. 14 Q Do you know if he used illegal drugs? 15 A I don't think so. 16 Q Do you know so? 17 A Huh? 18 Q Do you know so? You said you don't think 19 so. Do you know so? 20 A Because I don't think so, that means I 21 absolutely wouldn't know so. 22 Q That's fair enough. While Nate McKinely 23 was under your care, how was he educated? 24 A I don't remember. 25 Q While Nate McKinely was under your care, Page 610 1 do you recall him being -- do you recall him receiving 2 any consequences for violating any of your rules? 3 A Most of the kids did. 4 Q Okay. That wasn't my question. 5 A Most of the kids did but, no, I don't 6 recall. 7 Q You don't recall anything with respect to 8 Nate McKinely? 9 A No, I don't. 10 Q Do you recall Nate McKinely ever being a 11 subject of any group discussion? 12 A That was a long time ago and, no, I don't. 13 Q It was only two years ago, Cheryl. 14 A I can't remember yesterday. 15 Q Okay. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: I do vividly. 17 MR. FERGUSON: You'll have a whole record 18 of it to remember. 19 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Thank you. 20 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you remember the 21 circumstances by which he left? Did he leave at the 22 end of his term? 23 A Yes, he did. 24 Q Have you had any communications with Nate 25 McKinely since he left? Page 611 1 A It's been hard, actually. He -- no, I 2 haven't talked to Nate in a very long time. 3 Q Since he left? 4 A Yeah, he sent me an e-mail about a year 5 ago and said that he was going through Salt Lake and 6 wanted to see us, but I haven't really talked to Nate. 7 Q Okay. Have you talked to him about this 8 lawsuit? 9 A No. 10 Q Have you had any communications, written 11 communications or otherwise, with him regarding this 12 lawsuit? 13 A No. 14 Q Do you have any idea how he came to be on 15 this list? 16 A No, I don't. 17 Q Kristin Dunn, number three. It says she's 18 from Bradenton, Florida. When was Krissy Dunn -- is 19 she Krissy Dunn? Did she go by Krissy or did she go 20 by Kristin? 21 A I call her Kristin. 22 Q Did you ever hear her referred to by the 23 students as Krissy? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did you hear the students refer to her as Page 612 1 Kristin? 2 A I heard her parents call her Kristin. I 3 don't know, it can be either way. 4 Q Okay. Doesn't matter. What's your 5 understanding, other than medical or psychological 6 reasons, of why Krissy Dunn was at your program? 7 A Maybe the horses. 8 Q What does that mean? 9 A I think her parents wanted her involved 10 with the horse program. 11 Q Do you know if she had any problems with 12 the law prior to coming? 13 A No. 14 Q You don't know or she hadn't? 15 A I know she hadn't. 16 Q You know she had none; is that right? 17 A Yeah, she doesn't have issues around that. 18 Q Do you know if she had had any problems 19 with drugs? 20 A No. 21 Q Alcohol? 22 A No. 23 Q Smoking? 24 A No. 25 Q Truancy in school? Page 613 1 A No. 2 Q Was she a good student? 3 A No. 4 Q Where was she educated while she was under 5 your care? 6 A At The Whitmore Academy. 7 Q At the school itself? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did she stay for a full year? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Do you recall her ever violating any of 12 your rules? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Which rules? 15 A She had a lot of problems with 16 disciplining herself. 17 Q What does that mean? 18 A Sticking to schedule, putting first things 19 first. That's about it, just discipline. 20 Q Do you recall her ever lying while she was 21 under your care? 22 A She's not a liar. 23 Q Do you recall any instances in which she 24 was dishonest in any way while she was under your 25 care? Page 614 1 A No, I don't. 2 Q Do you recall her ever being the subject 3 of a group discussion? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you have any understanding of how it is 6 that she came to be on this list? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you have any understanding of how it is 9 that she is now going to be a witness on your behalf? 10 A Nope. 11 Q Have you had any communications of any 12 kind, phone calls, e-mails, anything with Krissy Dunn 13 since she left The Whitmore Academy? 14 A I talk to Krissy more than the other kids. 15 Q How often have you talked to her? 16 A Two days ago I sent her a picture of me 17 stuffing my face with food because she sent me an 18 e-mail and said she was depressed and I told her 19 sometimes that's a good way to solve that problem. 20 Q How regularly have you communicated with 21 her since The Whitmore? 22 A Once a month. 23 Q Is it by e-mail or by phone call? 24 A E-mail mostly. Yeah, e-mail only. 25 Q And during all these e-mails have you ever Page 615 1 mentioned to her that you were being sued? 2 A I think it's common knowledge. 3 Q That wasn't my question. My question was 4 during all -- 5 A We don't talk about the lawsuit. 6 Q My question was during any of these 7 e-mails or phone calls, have you ever mentioned to her 8 that you were being sued? 9 A No. 10 Q Has she ever mentioned to you that she was 11 aware of the suit? 12 A Yes. 13 Q What has she said about it? 14 A That she's sorry. 15 Q That you're being sued? 16 A Uh-huh (affirmative). Yes. 17 Q Has she ever expressed any opinion 18 regarding any of the plaintiffs? 19 A Never. 20 Q So she's said that she was sorry that you 21 were being sued, but she didn't say anything about any 22 plaintiffs? 23 A Yes. Sorry, I take that back. She said 24 she loved everyone so much and she wishes they would 25 quit being so stupid. Page 616 1 Q Those were her words? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Has she said anything directly about Erica 4 Cira? 5 A She loves Erica. 6 Q Did she say that directly? 7 A Yes, they were good friends. They were 8 roommates. 9 Q Did she mention Erica by name? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What else did she say about Erica Cira? 12 A That's all. 13 Q While Krissy Dunn and Erica Cira were 14 together, Erica described in her deposition an 15 incident in which they went on four-wheelers together 16 without helmets and fell off. Do you remember any 17 such incident? 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Tell me about that. 20 A I don't remember details. I just 21 remember -- 22 Q That it happened? 23 A Yeah. 24 Q Let me make sure I can confirm the 25 details. You remember that the two of them were on a Page 617 1 four-wheeler together? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And they didn't have helmets? 4 A Well, they just went down the road. 5 Q Where were you at this time? 6 A At the cabin. 7 Q Where is the cabin? 8 A Fairview. 9 Q Where is Fairview? 10 A Up on the Skyline Drive between Fairview 11 and Gooseberry. 12 Q Do you remember being told that they had 13 been riding without helmets? 14 A Yeah, we had group on that. 15 Q And do you remember that they had fallen 16 off? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Mark Ponte is number four. Who is Mark 19 Ponte? 20 A One of the kids in the program. 21 Q When was he there? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q Who was he there with? Which of the 24 plaintiffs do you remember him being there with? 25 A I don't know. He was there more probably Page 618 1 during the time Nate was. 2 Q Nate McKinely? 3 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 4 Q And which of the plaintiffs were Mark and 5 Nate there at the same time with? Were they there 6 with Justin Beasley? 7 A I would imagine. 8 Q Do you remember ever seeing Mark Ponte 9 with Justin Beasley? 10 A Hey, it's really hard to remember those 11 things. No -- I mean, yes, of course, we were 12 together all the time. 13 Q Okay. Let me try that one again. 14 A But no, not with them three alone. Yes as 15 a group. 16 Q I'm trying to pinpoint when Mark was 17 there. Do you remember seeing Mark and Justin at the 18 same time together? 19 A I can't recall any specific incidents, but 20 more than likely they were there together. 21 Q Do you remember seeing Mark and Erica Cira 22 there together? 23 A (Witness indicates.) 24 Q Is that a no? 25 A That's an I could go look at some pictures Page 619 1 if you want. 2 Q But you don't have any memory of that? 3 A No. 4 Q Okay. How was Mark Ponte educated, do you 5 know? 6 A He did a lot of the electronic high 7 school. 8 Q Through BYU? 9 A Through Utah State, electronic high 10 school. 11 Q Did he go to Landmark? 12 A I think he did. I think he graduated from 13 there, but I can't remember. 14 Yes, he did. 15 Q Other than medical or psychological 16 reasons, do you have any memory regarding why Mark 17 Ponte was at your school? 18 A I do. 19 Q Why was he there? 20 A He was misunderstood by a lot of kids that 21 were his age. 22 Q In what way? 23 A He's just really a deep person. He's a 24 real special person. 25 Q How were the kids misunderstanding his Page 620 1 deepness? 2 A He's just real honest and he's not 3 influenced by peer pressure. 4 Q So your understanding is that his parents 5 sent him across the country to Utah because he was 6 honest and not responsive to peer pressure? 7 A Maybe they wanted him to have a social 8 life that was involved with, like, our program, 9 horses, music. We have a lot to do with music. He 10 actually writes music now. 11 Q He's from Bellerose, New York; is that 12 right? 13 A I wouldn't know, but he's from New York. 14 Q That's what it says there. So your 15 understanding is that his parents sent him there to be 16 around horses and to be around music? 17 A I believe. 18 Q You don't think -- your understanding is 19 he couldn't have had access to horses and music in 20 Bellerose, New York? 21 A Maybe he didn't want it there. I don't 22 know. 23 Q Do you have any sense of whether he had 24 had any trouble with the law prior to coming to The 25 Whitmore Academy? Page 621 1 A I'm pretty sure he didn't. 2 Q Pretty sure, but can you confirm or deny 3 that he had had any problems with the law prior to 4 coming? 5 A I would probably say no. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Well, don't guess. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm guessing. To my 8 knowledge, no. 9 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Do you know if he had had 10 any problems with drugs prior to coming. 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Do you know if he had any problems with 13 drugs while he was at The Whitmore Academy? 14 A Absolutely not. 15 Q Do you know if he had any problems with 16 smoking cigarettes while he was there? 17 A No. 18 Q Alcohol? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you recall him having broken any of 21 your rules? 22 A I know he tried not to. 23 Q How do you know that? 24 A Because of his attitude, the way he is. 25 Q And what's his attitude? Page 622 1 A He was trying to do the right things. 2 Q Do you recall him having broken any of the 3 rules? 4 A No, I don't. 5 Q You don't recall him ever breaking a rule? 6 A I can't put a finger on one. 7 Q Do you recall him ever being given any 8 consequences for anything? And by consequences, I'm 9 using that term as you've used it throughout the 10 deposition. 11 A He was a model student. 12 Q What about a model resident, was he a 13 model resident? 14 A A model resident -- no, I don't recall. 15 Q Do you recall him being physically 16 aggressive with any student? 17 A No. 18 Q Do you recall him swearing at any student? 19 A No. 20 Q Do you recall him being the subject of any 21 group discussions? 22 A No. You already asked me that. 23 Q He what? 24 A You already asked me that, no. 25 Q Did he stay his full term? Page 623 1 A Yes, he did. 2 Q Have you had any communications with him 3 since he left? 4 A A little. 5 Q What does that mean? 6 A Once a year. 7 Q How? Christmas card? 8 A He made a song about me. 9 Q Oh. 10 A And he's doing good in the industry. 11 Q In what industry? 12 A Music. 13 Q Did he send you a recording of the song or 14 the sheet -- 15 A Yes, he did. 16 Q Was he singing? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Do you remember the lyrics to the song? 19 A I have them written down. 20 Q Do you have a copy of that somewhere? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q I'm going to ask you to not destroy or 23 alter it and we'll probably be making a somewhat 24 urgent request for it in the next day or so. Sound 25 good? Page 624 1 A Okay. 2 MR. FERGUSON: You can ask. 3 MR. TENNEY: We'll ask. 4 THE WITNESS: What about him, what if he 5 doesn't want you to have it? 6 MR. TENNEY: Well, you've listed him as a 7 witness. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 MR. TENNEY: And he's going to be deposed 10 and he's going to get to experience the same fun 11 you've experienced. So we will -- 12 THE WITNESS: Maybe you'll make him 13 famous. 14 MS. SHAPIRO: Actually, he's deposed the 15 week of the 13th, so it's not quite as urgent. 16 MR. TENNEY: Yeah, that's right. Dates 17 aren't too good for me either. 18 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) In the course of your 19 yearly communications with him since he left The 20 Whitmore, have you had any discussion with him, any 21 communication with him regarding this lawsuit? 22 A I think he mentioned that he doesn't want 23 me to be depressed about it. 24 Q So you have communicated with him 25 regarding the lawsuit? Page 625 1 A No, he's communicated with me about it. 2 Q Did you respond to him when he 3 communicated with you regarding the lawsuit? 4 A I'm a really bad friend. No, I don't 5 think I did. 6 Q Did he tell you this in an e-mail? 7 A Yes, he did. 8 Q So he send you an e-mail, told you he 9 didn't want you to be depressed about the lawsuit and 10 you didn't respond? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Is that the same e-mail where he sent you 13 his song? 14 A No. 15 Q Are you aware of any postings that he has 16 had on any Web site, any message board, anything, 17 regarding this lawsuit? 18 A I don't go to Fornits. 19 Q When was the last time you went to 20 Fornits? 21 A When it first started. 22 Q And when was that? 23 A I don't know, but it was enough to make me 24 want to throw up. 25 Q So you have not been to the Fornits Web Page 626 1 site since it first started? 2 A Since the beginning part. 3 Q Is that more than a year ago? 4 A I would guess that. 5 Q Is that more than two years ago? 6 A No, I would guess maybe a year. 7 Q So you haven't been to Fornits at all in 8 the last year? 9 A No. 10 Q Have people copied messages off of Fornits 11 and shown them to you? 12 A Yes. 13 Q But you personally have not gone there? 14 A No. 15 Q You have not looked at a computer screen 16 and seen that? 17 A No. My husband won't let me. 18 Q Okay. Are you aware of any postings that 19 Mark Ponte has made regarding this lawsuit? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. Do you have any sense of how it is 22 that he -- 23 A Has he? 24 Q Do you have any sense of how it is that 25 Mark Ponte came to be associated with this lawsuit as Page 627 1 a witness? 2 A Well, I believe that we gave them a list 3 of all of the names of the kids. 4 MR. FERGUSON: Don't guess. If you know, 5 tell him. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. And they just went 7 through. In fact, we talked about this. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Cheryl, do not -- anything 9 that we talked about is off limits. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. But no, it was not my 11 decision. 12 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Other than your 13 discussions with your attorneys, which I do not want 14 to know about, do you have any reason -- do you have 15 any understanding of why Mark's on this list and some 16 other student is not on this list? 17 A No. 18 Q What do you remember Mark being present 19 for that has been discussed today? In any of the 20 incidents that we've talked about today with respect 21 to any of the plaintiffs, do you remember Mark being 22 present for any of them? I know that's a broad 23 question, but can you answer it? 24 A Geez, yeah. I told you I don't remember 25 yesterday. I don't remember what in the heck you just Page 628 1 said. 2 Q That's a good point. Do you remember him 3 being there for the Joey Hamson demonic possession 4 incident? 5 MR. FERGUSON: That mischaracterizes the 6 testimony. 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) The Joey Hamson alcohol 8 incident. 9 A I'm not sure Mark was even in the program. 10 Q Okay. Do you remember Mark being there 11 for the Lindsey Kleeberger stolen money incident? 12 A I don't know. 13 Q Do you remember Mark being there for 14 Justin Beasley wearing women's clothing? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Caitlyn Loggins, number five, when was 17 Caitlyn there? 18 A Forever. I'm sorry, I'm being really bad, 19 but she was one of our longest students. 20 Q How long was she there for? 21 A I don't know, but she was there for longer 22 than a year. 23 Q Was she there for two years? 24 A I don't think so. 25 Q It was longer than a year, but you don't Page 629 1 think it was as long as two years? 2 A No. She was just involved with a lot of 3 the stuff. 4 Q What stuff was she involved with? 5 A She's the one that would send over the 6 reports. 7 Q What reports? 8 A She took care of the Web log. 9 Q So when you say sent over the reports, 10 what reports was she sending? 11 A Every week -- I thought I told you this. 12 Every week the prefect would -- we have about 15 13 reports we put up on our Web page so the parents would 14 know what's going on and Caitlyn is computer savvy and 15 she did a good job so I was glad she stayed long. 16 Q Did you pay her at any point? 17 A No, but she deserves it. 18 Q Was she ever an employee? 19 A No. 20 Q How was she educated? 21 A Mostly The Whitmore Academy and, I 22 believe, electronic high school. She didn't go to 23 Landmark. And that's about it. 24 Q Other than medical or psychological 25 reasons that you may or may not be aware of, do you Page 630 1 have any understanding why her parents sent her there, 2 sent her to your program? 3 A Discipline. 4 Q What does that mean? 5 A Strong willed child. 6 Q Is that what they told you, that she was a 7 strong willed child? 8 A No, nobody ever really told me everything. 9 Q So where does your sense of her being a 10 strong willed child come from? 11 A Where does my opinion come from? 12 Q Where does your sense or your opinion. 13 A She is. 14 Q Okay. But prior to her coming, did you 15 receive any information regarding her? 16 A I'm sure they did, but I told you I don't 17 really look at the intake. I like to form my own 18 opinion. 19 Q Well, now you did say you were a part of 20 this admissions group where you guys would meet 21 together and discuss prospective students? 22 A That's right. 23 Q Do you remember her ever being discussed 24 before she came? 25 A Yes. I thought that she would be good Page 631 1 because her mother is a -- what do you call them? A 2 minister. And it sounds good, but think that's part 3 of her discipline problem. She's kind of rebellious 4 towards that sort of stuff and she's very honest in 5 her rebellious way. 6 Q What religion was her mother a minister 7 for? 8 A I have no idea. 9 Q Did Caitlyn convert to the LDS church 10 while she was here? 11 A Actually, Caitlyn's atheist. 12 Q So I'm thinking of somebody else then. Do 13 you remember if Caitlyn converted to the LDS church 14 while she was here? 15 A Absolutely not. 16 Q Do you remember if any students under your 17 care converted to the LDS church while they were here? 18 A Actually, we discouraged that as much as 19 possible. 20 Q Okay. That wasn't my question. My 21 question was do you remember if any of them did while 22 they were here. 23 A Yes, there were some parents that -- I'm 24 trying to think. Casey Willis and -- we prefer the 25 kids wait until they go home and that's what we tried Page 632 1 to do with Logan Hainsworth, but she insisted and then 2 her mom called and then she was baptized, but she's 3 not active in the church. 4 Q I don't want to know about that. What I 5 do want to know, though, is with Casey and Logan did 6 you get parental permission before they were baptized? 7 A Actually, we tried to get parental 8 permission that they couldn't. 9 Q So you tried to talk the parents out of 10 letting them do it, but the parents in both cases -- 11 A Until later. I mean, we didn't want to 12 discourage them from ever joining. 13 Q Right. 14 A Yes, I'm trying to think. 15 Q Okay. If you think of it later, just let 16 me know. 17 A Okay. 18 Q Going back to Caitlyn Loggins for a 19 minute, are you aware of any instance in which she 20 violated any of your rules? 21 A Caitlyn violated a lot of rules. 22 Q What rules did she violate? 23 A Discipline. Pretty much all based around 24 discipline. Sticking to schedule, following through 25 on homework, completing her tasks, being a smart Page 633 1 aleck. But she learned by the end of her year she was 2 pretty much in control and learned a lot of freedom 3 through discipline. 4 Q Do you recall Caitlyn being the subject of 5 any groups? 6 A Yeah. Yes. 7 Q Tell me about them. 8 A I'm sorry, but when you think about these 9 kind of things it makes you laugh. If you could have 10 just sat in on one group, it would just crack you up. 11 She's very quiet and she's got a really bad attitude. 12 Q A really bad attitude or sad attitude? 13 A Sad and bad. But it's so bad that it 14 makes you laugh, so it's really hard to get mad at her 15 because she gets this really pouty look on her face. 16 But once you told Caitlyn and taught her, 17 she usually picked up on it, but it took a while to 18 get her to that point. So yeah. 19 Q Do you remember her being dishonest in any 20 way? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In what way was she dishonest? 23 A She abused the Internet. 24 Q How so? 25 A She was writing to her old friends. Page 634 1 Q And how is that a function of honesty? 2 I'm just trying to make sure I understand what you 3 mean. 4 A Okay. I told you this before. Internet 5 privileges were a really hard thing to incorporate 6 into our school because of what the Internet can do. 7 So being computer savvy as she was, it was easy for 8 her to manipulate that. 9 Q Do you remember her ever lying to you 10 about the computers? 11 A No, she didn't lie to me. 12 Q Do you recall her ever lying to anybody? 13 A I don't recall. 14 Q Do you recall her ever being manipulative? 15 A It was hard for Katy to be manipulative. 16 Q But do you recall her ever being 17 manipulative? 18 A Maybe trying. 19 Q When do you recall her trying to be 20 manipulative? 21 A I said maybe 22 Q When do you maybe recall her trying to be 23 manipulative? 24 A No. 25 Q Let's talk about the computer for just a Page 635 1 minute more and we'll move off her. While she was 2 under your care, do you know if she ever posted on 3 Fornits while she was at your program? 4 A I know that Bernie, the counselor -- 5 Q Bernie Farrow? 6 A Yes. He had told me that he thought that 7 she was and I needed to make sure that the kids 8 weren't getting on. 9 Q And did you talk to her about that? 10 A Actually, I took her computer away from 11 her. 12 Q And was it ever given back to her? 13 A Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. 14 Q How soon thereafter was it given back to 15 her? 16 A A couple of days. 17 Q Are you aware of whether she posted on 18 Fornits again after that? 19 A Not to my knowledge. 20 Q Okay. Let's move on to the next page. 21 Three more to go. 22 Number six is Stephen Estes from Indio, 23 California. When was Steven Estes there? 24 A He came to Lake Powell. 25 Q When? Page 636 1 A The day before Joey and them. 2 Q So he was a contemporary of Joey? 3 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 4 Q Was he there for a full year after that 5 point? 6 A No, he did not stay a year. He turned 18 7 and chose to go on home after graduation. 8 Q Now, if I remember right, Joey came in 9 October of 2004. And when was graduation? 10 A May. 11 Q So you think Stephen Estes was there from 12 probably October-ish of 2004 through about May of 13 2005; is that right? 14 A That's affirmative. 15 Q Do you recall why Stephen Estes was there, 16 other than medical or psychological reasons? 17 A His mother loved him and wanted him to be 18 a success and she felt that what we had to offer would 19 help him achieve that. 20 Q Do you know if he had had any problems in 21 school? 22 A Stephen was -- to my knowledge, had no 23 problems. He was intelligent. 24 Q No problems in school? 25 A Yes. Page 637 1 Q Do you know if he had any problems with 2 the law? 3 A To my knowledge, he was starting to get 4 into trouble. 5 Q What trouble? 6 A Just starting to go down that path. 7 Q What path? 8 A Of experimenting. 9 Q With what? 10 A With drugs. 11 Q So you thought -- your understanding was 12 he had had some drug problems before he came? 13 A No, that's not what I said. 14 Q Okay. Tell me what you said. 15 A He wanted to experiment with different 16 drugs. 17 Q So your understanding was that he wanted 18 to use drugs, but that he hadn't used drugs? 19 A That's my understanding. 20 Q Okay. Do you know if he had had any -- do 21 you know if he used drugs while he was under your 22 care? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you know if he used alcohol while he 25 was under your care? Page 638 1 A No. 2 Q Do you know if he used cigarettes while he 3 was under your care? 4 A No. 5 Q Do you know if he visited any pornographic 6 Web sites while he was under your care? 7 A No. 8 Q Do you know if he violated any of your 9 rules while he was under your care? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What rules? 12 A He used to sneak food. 13 Q What food? 14 A Remember, the backpacks. 15 Q Remind me. 16 A Stephen was -- when the kids are going to 17 turn 18, they have a lot more privileges and they're 18 given a lot of trust and then they show their 19 trustworthiness. Well, Stephen had a lot of time he 20 could do what he -- his own choices. 21 Q Do I remember -- just to short-circuit 22 this, you talked about this yesterday? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Something involving he had a backpack full 25 of food and -- Page 639 1 A That was Eddie. 2 Q Okay. Then I don't remember this. 3 A He was part of that group. Stephen used 4 to take food and stash it in his room and eat it late 5 at night. 6 Q Do you recall having groups on him about 7 this? 8 A Probably, but I don't recall exacts. 9 Q Do you recall any other rules that he 10 broke? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you recall him being dishonest in any 13 way? 14 A Yeah, that's dishonest. 15 Q Okay. Do you recall any other instances 16 of dishonesty? 17 A I can't recall. 18 Q Have you had communications with Stephen 19 since he left your program? 20 A Stephen. 21 Q Stephen, I'm sorry. 22 A He had a nickname too. I can't remember 23 what it was. Did I have any communication with him? 24 Q Yes, since he left. 25 A Hardly. Not much. Page 640 1 Q What does not much mean? 2 A He talks to my daughter once in a while on 3 My Space. 4 Q Which daughter? 5 A Laeysa. 6 Q Do you know the substance of any of those 7 conversations? 8 A Laeysa's personality is very sentence-y. 9 She doesn't talk much. 10 Q She's very sentence-y, so that means she 11 doesn't talk much? 12 A No. He just says, Hi, I miss you. 13 Q Have you had any communications with 14 Stephen regarding this lawsuit? 15 A Stephen. 16 Q Stephen, I'm sorry. I'll probably do it 17 again. 18 A No, I have not at all. 19 Q Are you aware of any postings that Stephen 20 has had on the Internet regarding this lawsuit? 21 A No, I have not. 22 Q Okay. Evan Sussman, number seven, is from 23 Paia, Hawaii. Has he always been from Paia, Hawaii, 24 according to your knowledge? 25 A Yes. Page 641 1 Q Okay. 2 A Well, I think. 3 Q What's your understanding of why he was at 4 your program, other than medical and psychological 5 reasons? 6 A Something about a motorcycle. His mom was 7 mad at him and threatened to send him somewhere so she 8 sent him to us because we were a good deal. 9 Q What do you mean you were a good deal? 10 A Cheaper than other places. 11 Q So your understanding was there was 12 something involving a motorcycle that prompted her to 13 send him to you? 14 A Yeah, something about him crashing his 15 bike or something. I don't know. I wouldn't know 16 enough to tell you. 17 Q Do you know if he had had any problems 18 with alcohol? 19 A No, Stephen's a very good boy. 20 Q Had he had any problems with drugs? 21 A No. 22 Q Any problems with the law? 23 A No. 24 Q So he crashed -- to the best of your 25 knowledge, he crashed his motorcycle and that's why he Page 642 1 was there? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. 4 A I think he wasn't supposed to take it or 5 something. 6 Q While he was under your care, do you 7 recall any incident in which he was dishonest? 8 A No. Stephen is a very honest person. 9 Q Do you recall any incident in which he 10 broke any rules? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you recall him being the subject of any 13 groups? 14 A No. He's very quiet. 15 Q How was he educated? 16 A I'm not sure -- oh, you mean before The 17 Whitmore or after? 18 Q At The Whitmore. 19 A He was at The Whitmore Academy. 20 Q At the school that you ran? 21 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 22 Q Do you remember which of the plaintiffs he 23 was a contemporary of? 24 A I don't remember who he overlapped with 25 much, but he was there -- it looks like most of these Page 643 1 guys were there with each other at one point. 2 Q Have you had any communications with him 3 since he left The Whitmore? 4 A I talk to Evan quite a bit. 5 Q How often do you talk to Evan? 6 A Whenever my computer doesn't work. 7 Q So by "talking" do you mean e-mail or by 8 "talking" do you mean -- 9 A I talk to Evan on the phone because I have 10 his number in my phone. 11 Q Have you had any discussions with Evan 12 regarding this lawsuit? 13 A For your information, the kids don't like 14 talking about the lawsuit. But no, we do not talk 15 about the lawsuit. 16 Q Who doesn't like talking about the 17 lawsuit? 18 A The kids. 19 Q Which kids? 20 A This is depressing. Any of them. 21 Q Okay. Have you had any conversations with 22 Evan regarding this lawsuit? 23 A Not to my knowledge. 24 Q Have you had any conversations with Evan 25 in which this lawsuit has come up? Page 644 1 A Not that I can remember. 2 Q Are you aware of any posting that Evans 3 has had on any Internet Web site regarding this 4 lawsuit? 5 A No, I am not. 6 Q He's never told you that he's posted on 7 any Web site regarding this lawsuit? 8 A That's not Evan's nature. 9 Q It's not in his nature to post? 10 A To tell me if he did. 11 Q Do you have any understanding of how it is 12 that he came to be associated with this lawsuit as a 13 witness, other than what your attorneys may have told 14 you? 15 A Maybe because I do talk a lot about his 16 integrity. I don't know why they chose him. 17 Q Lori Meier, number nine, from Boise, 18 Idaho. Tell me about Lori. What's her personality 19 like? 20 A She loves life. 21 Q Okay. What else can you tell me about 22 Lori? 23 A There's only one thing about Lori that you 24 can say about anything, snowboarding. 25 Q What is there to say about snowboarding? Page 645 1 A She's weird about it. Everything is 2 snowboarding, and that's the truth. 3 Q Okay. Do you know why she was sent to The 4 Whitmore? 5 A Her parents wanted her to go snowboarding. 6 Q She was sent to The Whitmore to go 7 snowboarding? 8 A They liked the fact that we play a lot and 9 I think that's what they decided. 10 Q Do you have any understanding -- are there 11 snowboarding hills in Boise, Idaho? 12 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, but they liked the 14 social aspect of what we do. 15 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) So your understanding is 16 that Lori was sent here for social reasons? 17 A Social recreation. 18 Q So this was like an extended summer camp 19 for her? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q Okay. How much did you charge Lori 22 Meier's parents? 23 A Like I said before, I have no idea. 24 Q Was it the usual rate? 25 A I'm sure. Page 646 1 Q So your understanding is that Lori Meier's 2 parents paid you all that money and sent her there for 3 the recreational opportunities that you provided? 4 MR. FERGUSON: Argumentative. 5 THE WITNESS: Very. All that money? Do 6 you know where all that money goes? 7 MR. FERGUSON: Don't argue, Cheryl. 8 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Tell me. Where does all 9 that money go? Tell me. 10 A Right back into the kids. 11 Q How much money do you think you spent on 12 Lori Meier during the year that she was there? 13 A I think that we spent probably, 14 approximately, and you don't even have to write it 15 down, but at least $100 a day for each kid. 16 Q And when was Lori Meier there? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q At one time you had 39 students there? 19 A Yes. 20 Q So you're spending $100 per day per kid, 21 you were spending about $4,000 a day to run your 22 facility? 23 A If that's what your math says. 24 Q You tell me. Thirty-nine kids times 100. 25 I'm not very good with math, but that's one I think I Page 647 1 can do. 2 A Okay. Then take off taxes and take off 3 the insurance and take off the rent and take off 4 maintenance, whatever. 5 Q Okay. 6 A You figure before you start pointing 7 fingers. 8 Q I'm not pointing anything. 9 A You just did. 10 Q You testified yesterday that Mark was the 11 guy that handled finances; is that right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So we'll talk about that on Thursday. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Lori, did she receive therapy while she 16 was under your care? 17 A Tim was her therapist. 18 Q So this was extended summer camp plus 19 therapy, right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did she receive an education? 22 A Yes, she did. 23 Q Do you know how she was educated? 24 A She graduated. 25 Q From where? Page 648 1 A The Whitmore Academy. 2 Q So she was part of your school and not 3 part of the Landmark period? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you recall her ever being dishonest? 6 A Never. 7 Q Do you recall her being the subject of any 8 group discussions? 9 A Yes. 10 Q What? 11 A About how fanatical she was about 12 snowboarding. 13 Q You had a group discussion on Lori because 14 she was fanatical about snowboarding? 15 A Balance. 16 Q Balance, okay. What was she doing while 17 she was under your care that was so fanatical? 18 A She was just very into name brands and 19 into -- just fanatical about everything. 20 Q What was she doing that was fanatical? 21 A I just told you. 22 Q She was into name brands? 23 A Yes, and snowboarding. 24 Q Did she talk about it all the time? 25 A Yes. Page 649 1 Q Did she sneak away to go snowboarding? 2 A No. 3 Q So she just talked about it all the time? 4 A It was very annoying. 5 Q It was annoying her talking about it? 6 A To everyone. 7 Q So you called a group because she was 8 annoying you because she was talking about 9 snowboarding? 10 A No, I didn't call group. The kids talked 11 about it at our meeting. 12 Q Was this a regularly scheduled meeting? 13 A I told you that on Sundays we had the 14 meetings. 15 Q So her snowboarding group was a regularly 16 scheduled Sunday meeting? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Can you think of any other groups you had 19 on her? 20 A No, I can't. And we didn't -- like I said 21 before, we didn't have groups so much on a kid, we had 22 group on one of the spiritual laws, one of the laws of 23 cooperation. 24 Q Do you have any sense of how it is she 25 came to be associated with this suit, other than what Page 650 1 your attorneys may have told you? 2 A No. 3 MR. TENNEY: Off the record just for a 4 minute. 5 (Discussion off the record.) 6 (Ms. Shapiro leaves the deposition.) 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) We're back on the record. 8 Ms. Sudweeks, I appreciate your patience and your 9 cooperation over the last two days. I'd like to ask 10 you a few specific questions about Justin Busa, so 11 we're going to do that now and then we'll get you on 12 your way. 13 Justin Busa was a student of yours; is 14 that right? 15 A That's right. 16 Q Do you recall when Justin was a student? 17 A Maybe '99. 18 Q He was there in the Canada phase; is that 19 right? 20 A Exactly. 21 Q His mother is Michelle Demichelli; is that 22 right? 23 A That's right. 24 Q Do you pronounce it Demichelli or 25 Demichelli? Page 651 1 A Demichelli. 2 Q I've never been clear on that. 3 MR. FERGUSON: Well, she pronounced it for 4 us and I don't remember. 5 MR. TENNEY: I don't remember either. 6 THE WITNESS: It's Demichelli. 7 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Do you recall 8 having had any communications of any kind with 9 Michelle Demichelli prior to Justin being admitted? 10 A Yes, I do. 11 Q What communications do you remember? 12 A Well, it was in Canada back in '99 and 13 communications weren't so great, but she had enrolled 14 her son into a program in Samoa. And I don't know how 15 she found out about us, but she was crying and 16 desperate, didn't know what to do and didn't have any 17 money. 18 Q Was this by phone this conversation? 19 A Yes, it was. 20 Q You told her you'd help her out? 21 A And I -- yes, I told her I'd do my best. 22 I'd talk to my husband and see what the costs would be 23 and I think we came up with around $19,000, and that 24 would be that everyone would have to pitch in. 25 And she needed transportation to Canada Page 652 1 and my husband flew his airplane, we paid for the gas 2 to go to Vancouver so he could come up. Or maybe he 3 went to San Francisco, I can't remember. But all in 4 all, we gave a lot for Justin. 5 Q Did you bill her for the cost of that 6 plane tip? 7 A No, we did not. 8 Q Okay. Prior to Justin being enrolled, did 9 you make any representations to her regarding the 10 therapy that would be offered for him? 11 A I don't recall talking about that at all. 12 Her main concern was getting him away from his druggy 13 friends. 14 Q Michelle has testified that you personally 15 promised her that Justin would receive weekly 16 individual therapy from a licensed counselor. I'm 17 just going to ask you the question straight up. Did 18 you make any representations to her that Justin would 19 receive weekly individual therapy from a licensed 20 counselor? 21 A Absolutely not. That's not something we 22 offered anyone at any time. 23 Q Prior to Justin's enrollment, did you 24 discuss education with Michelle Demichelli? 25 A We touched on it, but it was definitely Page 653 1 not her priority. 2 Q When you say you touched on it, what do 3 you remember about it? 4 A She let me know that his academics weren't 5 as important to her as getting him away from his -- 6 out of that environment. 7 Q Did you make any representations to her 8 regarding the education that you would offer him? 9 A I don't believe we did at that time. 10 Q At what time did you make any 11 representations to her regarding education, if any? 12 A I remember talking to Michelle about 13 classes that he would be taking at Brigham Young 14 University that she would have to pay for. 15 Q Were these correspondence courses? 16 A Yes, they were. 17 Q So you told her that he would be educated 18 through correspondence courses while he was under your 19 care; is that right? 20 A That's right. 21 Q So what was she going to get for her 22 $19,000 then? 23 A Well, we travel a lot and we were, that 24 year, going to Mexico and the horses and just 25 everything that we do. Page 654 1 Q Michelle has alleged she's paid you 2 approximately $23,000. Do you have any basis for 3 disputing that amount? 4 A I wouldn't have any basis to dispute it 5 without looking at what she's talking about. 6 Q Sounds good. Do you know if Justin was 7 ever officially enrolled in the BYU high school 8 transcript program? 9 A I have no idea. 10 Q Do you recall ever having supervised him 11 while he worked on any BYU courses? 12 A I don't recall, but I remember he did work 13 on courses. 14 Q Did you ever offer any additional 15 educational services at that time? 16 A I don't recall. 17 Q Did Justin ever write book reports for 18 you? 19 A It was required for all the kids to write 20 book reports. 21 Q Book reports on what? 22 A The kids were required to read every day 23 and at the end of the week they would write a book 24 report on what they read. 25 Q Did you give him grades on these book Page 655 1 reports? 2 A No. 3 Q Was this considered to be part of their 4 educational services at all? 5 A No, it was part of our program. 6 Q Justin -- I can't dig it out right now, 7 but Justin, during his deposition, was provided with a 8 copy of sort of a year-end report that he wrote at the 9 end of his time at the Chilanko Lodge. Do you recall 10 Justin ever writing for you a year-end report 11 regarding his time at the Chilanko Lodge? 12 A If I'm correct, it's been about six years 13 and I don't recall too much. So no, I do not recall. 14 Q Do you recall whether you had any 15 involvement in getting Justin a transcript from any 16 educational institution. 17 A I do not recall. 18 Q I'll represent to you that Justin provided 19 a transcript that was from an organization referred to 20 as CCDE and he says he was given as a result of 21 educational services he received while under your 22 care. Do you recall any organization that went by the 23 acronym CCDE? 24 A That sound like Canadian Correspondence 25 Distance Education. Page 656 1 Q And what is that organization? 2 A It's not an organization. It's just what 3 we did with the school up in Canada. 4 Q So did CCDE refer to your program? 5 A It referred to what we did with the kids 6 and then we would give that to BYU. 7 Q And so did you offer grades as part of 8 CCDE? 9 A I don't -- I really don't recall what was 10 involved with that. 11 Q Do you recall who administered the 12 educational program at CCDE? 13 A It was just us. 14 Q Who? 15 A What we did in Canada. 16 Q "We" being who? 17 A Mark and I. 18 Q So Mark and you were responsible for CCDE? 19 A And it probably included packets from the 20 Canadian correspondence. That's usually what the kids 21 in Canada did. 22 Q Where did the Canadian correspondence come 23 from, where did those packets come from? 24 A Prince George. 25 Q From where? Page 657 1 A Prince George distance learning. 2 Q Is that a school or an organization? 3 A It's through the government. It's a 4 certified school. 5 Q So you were forwarding on to your students 6 packets that you had gotten from this Prince George 7 school? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Who was grading those packets? 10 A The teachers from that school. 11 Q At Prince George? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So then would Prince George issue a 14 transcript to the students? 15 A They would issue certificates. I can't 16 remember exactly how they did it. 17 Q So how did Justin end up getting 18 transcripts from CCDE and not from Prince George? 19 A The transcripts we gave the kids weren't 20 transcripts, they were records of what they had done 21 with us. 22 Q So did you give grades as part of your 23 CCDE transcripts? 24 A Just the grades that they had received 25 from... Page 658 1 Q From who? 2 A The Canadian correspondence. 3 Q So any grades that would appear on a CCDE 4 transcript, that was just simply you copying the 5 grades that this other organization had given them; is 6 that right? 7 A That's not right. 8 Q That's not right, okay. What did I have 9 wrong? 10 A The so-called transcripts that you're 11 calling it, it's just a record that we would have to 12 go off of. If we wanted to enroll the kids at BYU, we 13 knew how many courses they had to take or what they 14 needed to take. 15 Q So the CCDE record -- 16 A Was a tracking record. 17 Q -- would just reflect the grades they had 18 received from somebody else? 19 A That's right. 20 Q And the somebody else was this Prince 21 George organization? 22 A That's right. It was nothing official. 23 Q Did you make any efforts to supervise 24 their homework that they were doing from these other 25 organizations? Page 659 1 A Yes. 2 Q What efforts did you make to supervise 3 their homework? 4 A Well, it depended on the situation. I'm 5 not sure when Justin was there who his counselor was, 6 but the counselors would usually oversee their work. 7 Q Did you oversee Justin Busa's homework? 8 A Not that I recall. 9 Q Did you have any involvement in Justin 10 getting a transcript at all? 11 A Not that I recall. 12 Q Justin testified in his deposition that he 13 put together a year-end paper for you, that you did 14 not approve of his year-end paper and that you 15 withheld a transcript from him, you didn't allow him 16 to receive a transcript for a period of several 17 months. Do you remember anything like that happening? 18 A I do. 19 Q Okay. Tell me about it. 20 A I remember not because of a year-end 21 paper, but Justin had all of the -- he had come to the 22 mansion and gone through the office's private files 23 and taken -- he'd even written out transcripts for 24 himself and he got into our CDs back in '99 when 25 CDs -- and all of our pictures from the year that he Page 660 1 was attending were on these CDs and he took them. 2 So all of the students who were enrolled 3 at the same time as Justin had no pictures, and 4 pictures are a big part of the child's program -- year 5 for memories. And we told him when he returned those 6 pictures he could receive his transcript. 7 Q A transcript from whom? 8 A From wherever he was getting it. 9 Q What control did you have over those 10 transcripts? 11 A Well, we couldn't turn in our transcripts 12 without getting the pictures back. 13 Q You couldn't turn in your what? 14 A We couldn't turn in the transcripts that 15 we had without getting the pictures back. 16 Q Turn in the transcripts that you had 17 received from Prince George? 18 A Prince George or BYU or whoever. 19 Q So you couldn't turn those in to whom? 20 A To Justin. 21 Q So you couldn't put those in the mail to 22 him? 23 A No. 24 Q Had he done his work? 25 A What? Page 661 1 Q Had he done his work? 2 A Yeah. Whatever work he did was on those 3 transcripts, those unofficial transcripts. 4 Q Let me make sure I got this right. Justin 5 had done the work that Prince George had required him 6 to do to receive grades? 7 A That's right. 8 Q He had been given grades for that work? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You had the report and the transcripts 11 from Prince George in your possession? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you refused to send that to him until 14 he returned these pictures to you? 15 A Yes. 16 Q What right did you have to deny him a 17 transcript that he had already earned? 18 A The same right that UVSC had to deny my 19 daughter a transcript until she paid her traffic 20 ticket. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. FERGUSON: Pretty standard procedure, 23 I have to tell you, having sent four kids through the 24 public school. 25 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. In that Page 662 1 circumstance -- I don't mean to argue with you, but it 2 begs the question in that circumstances UVSC is the 3 entity that owns the grades, it owned the transcript, 4 but you're saying that he was getting his grades from 5 some organization and you were just simply refusing to 6 forward that organization's transcript on to him? 7 A So why wouldn't he just call them and get 8 the transcripts? 9 Q Well, you tell me. Did you have any 10 control over that? 11 A No. All we wanted was our pictures back. 12 Q So your understanding is that Justin could 13 have contacted them directly and just gotten his 14 transcripts from them directly? 15 A Yeah. 16 Q So all you were doing was forwarding on 17 mail, basically? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Did you have a licensed therapist 20 on staff while Justin Busa was there? 21 A No, we didn't. 22 Q Did you have any counselor of any kind? 23 Other than you and Mark, did you have anybody there 24 who offered counseling services? 25 A Not licensed. Page 663 1 Q And who did you have that wasn't licensed? 2 A Mark, I, Steven. 3 Q Steven who? 4 A Welling. 5 Q He's your son-in-law? 6 A Yes. 7 Q What training did he have? 8 A He didn't have any training. I told you 9 they weren't certified. 10 Q Other than certifications, what training 11 did he have? 12 A He had worked with youth. 13 Q In what capacity? 14 A I didn't understand your question. 15 Q In what capacity had he worked with youth? 16 A You're going to have to use a different 17 word than capacity. 18 Q How had he worked with youth? Where had 19 he worked with youth? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Did Steven teach any classes while you 22 were in Canada? 23 A No. 24 Q Did he teach any classes in Spanish? 25 A He helped the kids with Spanish because he Page 664 1 was a four-year student. 2 Q When you say "helped," in what capacity 3 did he help them with Spanish? 4 A Well, when you're in Mexico and you speak 5 English and you need to speak Spanish, Steven could 6 help them with the right words. 7 Q So he would just translate for them? 8 A No, he helped them learn the words. 9 Q Did he actually sit down and have Steven 10 teach kids Spanish words? 11 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 12 Q Did you ever give grades for Spanish as a 13 result of Steven's teaching? 14 A I don't recall. 15 Q Okay. But there wouldn't have been 16 anywhere for you to have given grades because the 17 grades were coming from Prince George; is that right? 18 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 19 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) When you were in Canada 22 where were you staying? Where was this program 23 located at that point? I don't need an address, but 24 just tell me where you were. 25 A Kleena Kleene, BC. Page 665 1 Q Kleena Kleene, how do you spell that? 2 A K-l-e-e-n-a, K-l-e-e-n-e. 3 Q Is that the Chilanko Lodge? Is that the 4 other name for it? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q Is that the same place where you are 7 currently living right now? 8 A Yes. 9 Q I thought you gave me some other name for 10 it yesterday. 11 A I don't think so. Chilcotin. 12 Q Chilcotin, yeah. Is that the same thing 13 too? 14 A It's the region. 15 Q So Chilcotin is the region, Kleena Kleene 16 is the town name? 17 A Uh-huh (affirmative). 18 Q It's on a lake. What's the name of the 19 lake? 20 A One Eye. 21 Q One Eye. Like -- 22 A Chief One Eye. 23 Q -- the number one eye? 24 A Yes. 25 Q How many students did you have while Page 666 1 Justin Busa was there? 2 A It varied. I don't remember. 3 Q What's the range? 4 A I don't remember. 5 Q More than 10 or less than 10? 6 A I don't remember. 7 Q More than 20 or less than 20? 8 A Less. 9 Q Somewhere underneath 20; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Were there enough rooms for all the 12 students while you were at Chilanko? I'm just going 13 to refer to it as Chilanko. Were there enough rooms 14 for all of the students? 15 A There was 14 rooms and seven cabins. 16 Q Oh, so it's a fairly large cabin. 17 Approximately how many square feet is the cabin -- or 18 the lodge? 19 A I have no idea. 20 Q Can you give me a ballpark on that? 21 A I can't. I'm not good at that. 22 Q Okay. Were there enough showers for the 23 students while you were at Chilanko? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q So the students were allowed to use the Page 667 1 showers? 2 A Absolutely. They were required to use the 3 showers. 4 Q How were they required to use the showers? 5 A Daily. Hygiene is a big part of our 6 program. 7 Q Justin testified in his deposition that 8 they were encouraged to bathe by jumping in the lake 9 every morning. Do you have any memory of anything 10 like that ever happening? 11 A That wasn't to bathe. That was for fun. 12 Q Were they encouraged to jump in the lake 13 every morning? 14 A Yes. 15 Q But it wasn't for bathing? 16 A Absolutely not. 17 Q So they could bathe in the showers? 18 A Yes. 19 Q As far as the sewage and the plumbing goes 20 in the Chilanko Lodge, were there any particular 21 restrictions on the sewage, plumbing situation at the 22 Chilanko Lodge? 23 A Not that I recall. The guests that we had 24 that stayed at the lodge were paying $300 a night. I 25 doubt that we would have insufficient plumbing. Page 668 1 Q Do you remember if the kids were allowed 2 to flush the toilet paper while they were in Canada? 3 A Same situation. I imagine so. 4 Q You don't remember if such a restriction 5 existed though? 6 A Of course. 7 Q Do you have any memory of whether the kids 8 were allowed to flush the toilet paper in Canada? 9 A It was standard procedure to flush the 10 toilet. I don't recall instances where they didn't 11 have to or they couldn't. 12 Q Did you have any problems with mice or 13 rodents while you were in Canada at the Chilanko 14 Lodge? 15 A Not that I recall. 16 Q Do you recall ever seeing a mouse or a 17 rodent while you were at the Chilanko Lodge? 18 A It's the wilderness, of course. 19 Q Okay. Do you ever recall seeing a mouse 20 or a rodent in the facilities in which the students 21 were staying? 22 A A mouse. I don't know what a rodent is. 23 Q Mouse or a rat, let's just say that. Do 24 you recall seeing a mouse or a rat? 25 A I told you yesterday, I've never seen a Page 669 1 rat before. 2 Q Okay. So do you recall seeing a mouse? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you recall taking any particular steps 5 to combat any problems you might have had with mice? 6 A We always do. 7 Q What steps did you take? 8 A Just the standard, set a trap, set out 9 Decon in the barn or whatever. 10 Q At some point during Justin's -- 11 A Get a cat. 12 Q Did you get a cat? 13 A We have about 20. 14 Q Right now you have 20? 15 A At the lodge not at this time because we 16 just moved back. But at that time when he was there, 17 there was probably 20 cats. 18 Q At some point while Justin Busa was under 19 your care you moved to Mexico; is that right? 20 A Yes, that's what we do. 21 Q If I remember right you moved to Mulege, 22 Mexico? 23 A That's right. 24 Q And where is Mulege exactly? 25 A Three quarters of the way down the Baja Page 670 1 Peninsula. 2 Q Where were you staying when you were in 3 Mexico? 4 A We stayed -- we owned two homes and beach 5 property. 6 Q You owned two homes in addition to beach 7 property or the two homes had beach property? 8 A Two homes in addition to beach property. 9 Q How much beach property did you own? 10 A I don't know, maybe 10 acres. 11 Q Do you still own it? 12 A Yes, we do. 13 Q And that's in -- 14 A Well, it's Mexican. 15 Q What does that mean? 16 A We supposedly own it. 17 Q What do you mean "you supposedly own it"? 18 A That's where the whole issue came up. 19 It's a whole different story. I don't think you want 20 to give in to it. 21 Q Give me the brief version of it. Do you 22 still own the property or not? 23 MR. FERGUSON: Well, I object, it's 24 irrelevant, completely, totally, utterly irrelevant to 25 any of the issues in this case. Page 671 1 MR. TENNEY: Well, I'll tell you why I 2 think it's relevant and you can tell me if the 3 objection still stands. We are going to be having a 4 discussion soon enough, I believe, about the writ of 5 attachment issue and about Judge Stott's order 6 regarding their properties and one of the issues in 7 that motion has always been the extent of their 8 properties. We think it's relevant to that motion. 9 MR. FERGUSON: Yeah, it's relevant to the 10 issue of whether you can collect a judgment. It has 11 nothing do with liability and nothing to do with 12 damages and is not calculated to lead to the 13 admissibility of any evidence at trial. 14 MR. TENNEY: Well, let me ask you this 15 question then: When we have that discussion regarding 16 that motion, which is going to come soon enough, are 17 you going to be making any representations to the 18 court regarding the extent of their property holdings? 19 MR. FERGUSON: No. My intent is to argue 20 that his ruling is utterly unconstitutional. 21 MR. TENNEY: Okay. Let me ask you this 22 question: If we file another request for a writ 23 attachment, since it wasn't granted last time, is your 24 defense going to be based, on any level, upon the 25 extent of their property holdings? Page 672 1 MR. FERGUSON: No. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. I can clear this up 3 very quickly. 4 MR. FERGUSON: Don't. I don't know. I 5 can't answer that question. 6 MR. TENNEY: Okay. If there's a 7 possibility that that argument is going to revolve 8 around the extent of their property holdings, then I 9 want permission right now to simply ask whether they 10 own the beachfront property in Mexico. 11 THE WITNESS: I can answer that. It's 12 very -- 13 MR. FERGUSON: I'm not instructing her not 14 to answer. 15 MR. TENNEY: Okay. 16 MR. FERGUSON: I didn't instruct her not 17 to answer. 18 MR. TENNEY: That's true. 19 MR. FERGUSON: I'm simply saying I 20 perceive it to be an irrelevant line of questions. 21 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Okay. Do you still own 22 the beachfront property in Mexico? 23 A The two houses during hurricane John are 24 in the ocean. There's nothing left. Nothing is left. 25 The beachfront property has been sold to some Page 673 1 Europeans. 2 Q When did you sell it? 3 A We didn't sell it, the Mexicans did. 4 Q Who sold it? Who exactly sold it? 5 A That's how it works in Mexico. No, we do 6 not own the property, the beachfront property in 7 Mexico. 8 Q Did the government sell it? 9 A No, a man named Raoul Lujan. 10 Q And who's Raoul Lujan? 11 A A man from Mexico. 12 Q How did he have the ability to sell the 13 property? 14 A Lots of money. 15 MR. FERGUSON: It may be the legal mystery 16 of the day. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's been the legal 18 mystery for about 10 years. 19 Q (BY MR. TENNEY) Did you receive any money 20 from it? 21 A No, we will never receive money for it. 22 Q When did he sell it? 23 A Maybe four years ago. 24 Q While you had Justin Busa down in Mexico, 25 where were you staying, where was the program located? Page 674 1 A When Justin was in Mexico -- we travel a 2 lot. I'm not sure which trip he went on. So we spend 3 a month at one of our places in Mulege, that is now no 4 longer, or two weeks on the beach or in Cabo San Lucas 5 or in Los Mochis or in Creel. We travel. 6 Q What staff did you have with you while you 7 were in Mexico? 8 A Shayla Welling, Steven Welling, Trevor 9 Bennett, Trinity Bennett, Cheryl Sudweeks and Mark 10 Sudweeks. 11 Q Did you have any -- 12 A And Susan Likes for a very short time. 13 Q How did Susan Likes get associated with 14 you in the Mexico phase? I thought she was from 15 Nephi. 16 A Susan Likes is not from Nephi. 17 Q Where is Susan Likes from? 18 A She's from Alpine, Washington. 19 Q How long have you known Susan Likes again? 20 A Fifteen years. 21 Q So she came down to Mexico to be with you 22 in the program? 23 A No, she came down to be with -- yeah, 24 that's what you said. Yes. 25 Q Did you pay her during that time period? Page 675 1 A I don't know. A lot of the work that 2 Susan does is voluntary, so I couldn't give you the 3 answer for that. 4 Q So part of the Mexico time period that 5 we're talking about, were the students ever sent off 6 on solo therapy expeditions? 7 A We have an expedition we call solo. 8 Q Tell me about what that expedition is. 9 A Solos is when the kids have a time to be 10 by themselves with a counselor who is not far from 11 them, but basically they have the quiet time, that 12 they're able to do different assignments. 13 Q And by counselor, you're talking about the 14 people you just identified, you, Mark, Shayla, Steven? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Nobody different than the people you've 17 already talked about? 18 A No. 19 Q So you would take them off -- where would 20 you take the students for this quiet time? 21 A If our fifth wheel was up on the point, 22 they would be down on the beach where we could watch 23 them. 24 Q Were they within eyesight of you? 25 A Yes, they were. Page 676 1 Q At all times? 2 A I believe so. 3 Q Do you recall a student ever being left 4 off, outside of eyesight of you? 5 A No, I don't recall. 6 Q Justin, in his deposition, described 7 multiple solos that he went on where he said that he 8 was left as far as 45 minutes away from you. Do you 9 have any memory of Justin being left 45 minutes away 10 from you on a solo? 11 A I have no memory of that. 12 Q How long would these solos last? 13 A Half an hour to -- I don't know, however 14 long it took for them to do their assignments. 15 Q What was the longest you ever remember a 16 student being left on a solo? 17 A I don't recall. 18 Q Was it as long as five days? 19 A I wouldn't recall. 20 Q Could it have been as long as five days? 21 A Probably not. 22 Q Would you have a basis for denying that a 23 student was left on a solo for three days? 24 A Probably not. It depended on who it was. 25 Q So if a student had said under oath that Page 677 1 he had been left for three days, would you have memory 2 sufficient to deny that that would happen? 3 A No, but I would question it. 4 Q But you couldn't deny that it had 5 happened? 6 A I said I would question it. 7 Q But could you deny that it had happened? 8 A I couldn't agree with it or deny. 9 Q Okay. While the students were left on the 10 solos, how did they eat? What did they eat? 11 A They were required to cook their own food. 12 Q How often did you check on them? 13 A Four or five times a day. 14 Q Did they have cell phones or 15 walkie-talkies with them? 16 A If I remember right, they had 17 walkie-talkies. 18 Q Whenever they left for a solo you'd give 19 them a walkie-talkie? 20 A Most of the time. I know there's times 21 that they didn't have them. 22 Q Were multiple students left on solos at 23 the same time? 24 A I don't recall. 25 Q How many sets of walkie-talkies did you Page 678 1 have? 2 A We still have a lot of them. 3 Q At that time? 4 A Maybe 10. 5 Q You had 10 different sets of 6 walkie-talkies? 7 A Yes, that's when we didn't have cell 8 phones. 9 Q Okay. While Justin Busa was a student at 10 the Chilanko Lodge, were you ever made aware of any 11 instance in which Justin had been physically assaulted 12 by any other students? 13 A No, never. 14 Q While Justin was a student at The Whitmore 15 Academy, were you ever made aware of any instance in 16 which Justin physically assaulted another student? 17 A Never. 18 Q Are you aware of any circumstances, 19 incidents in which Justin was dishonest? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What? 22 A When Mark flew down to pick him up, they 23 had to wait for a flight somewhere, I'm not sure, and 24 Justin stole Mark's wallet out of his back pocket. 25 Q How did Mark know that Justin had stolen Page 679 1 his wallet? 2 A I don't remember. 3 Q To the best of your knowledge, did Mark 4 catch Justin with his wallet? 5 A I don't remember. 6 Q So how do you know that Justin stole 7 Mark's wallet? 8 A Because Mark told me and Justin told me. 9 Q And did you report that to any 10 authorities? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Did you report that to his mother? 13 A Probably. 14 Q Do you remember reporting that to his 15 mother? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q Do you remember any consequences that were 18 given to Justin as a result of him having stolen that 19 wallet? 20 A I don't remember. 21 Q Do you remember Justin being the subject 22 of any groups? 23 A I don't remember. 24 MR. TENNEY: Okay. Ms. Sudweeks, thank 25 you for your time. Those are all the questions I Page 680 1 have. Unless your counsel has any questions, I'm 2 done. 3 MR. FERGUSON: I don't intend to ask any 4 at this time. 5 MR. TENNEY: Okay. Would you like the 6 opportunity to read and sign? 7 MR. FERGUSON: Yes. 8 MR. TENNEY: Okay. 9 MR. FERGUSON: And as I indicated to your 10 predecessor, whose name I do not know, send the 11 transcripts here. We'll get them to the Sudweekses. 12 MR. TENNEY: All right. We're done. 13 (Whereupon, the deposition was concluded 14 at 4:07 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 681 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF UTAH ) 3 COUNTY OF SALT LAKE) 4 THIS IS TO CERTIFY that the deposition of CHERYL 5 SUDWEEKS, the witness in the foregoing deposition 6 named, was taken before me, SUSIE LAUCHNOR, a 7 Certified Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public in and 8 for the State of Utah, residing at Holladay, Utah. 9 That the said witness was by me, before examination, 10 duly sworn to testify the truth, the whole truth and 11 nothing but the truth in said cause. 12 That the testimony of said witness was reported by 13 me in Stenotype and thereafter caused by me to be 14 transcribed into typewriting, and that a full, true 15 and correct transcription of said testimony so taken 16 and transcribed is set forth in the foregoing pages. 17 I further certify that I am not of kin or otherwise 18 associated with any of the parties to said cause of 19 action, and that I am not interested in the event 20 thereof. 21 WITNESS MY HAND and official seal at Holladay, Utah, 22 this 31st day of October, 2006. 23 24 25 Page 682 1 WITNESS SIGNATURE CERTIFICATION 2 3 4 5 STATE OF UTAH ) ) ss. 6 COUNTY OF ) 7 8 CHERYL SUDWEEKS deposes and says: That 9 she is the witness referred to in the foregoing 10 deposition; that she has read the same and knows the 11 contents thereof; that the same are true of her own 12 knowledge. 13 ______________________ CHERYL SUDWEEKS 14 15 SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this 16 ____ day of __________ , . 17 ___________________________ 18 Notary Public 19 Residing at 20 21 22 My commission expires: 23 ___________________ 24 25 Page 683 1 C O R R E C T I O N S 2 Deposition of: CHERYL SUDWEEKS 3 Taken: October 31, 2006 4 5 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON 6 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 7 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 8 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 9 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 10 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 11 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 12 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 13 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 14 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 15 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 16 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 17 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 18 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 19 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 20 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 21 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 22 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 23 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 24 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 25 SIGNATURE ______________________ DATE ______________ Page 684