IN THE FOURTH JUDICIAL DISTRICT COURT IN AND FOR JUAB COUNTY, STATE OF UTAH JUSTIN BEASLEY, a minor, et ) al., ) Plaintiffs, ) ) vs. ) Case No. 050600086 ) Judge Stott MARK V. SUDWEEKS, et al., ) Defendants. ) ) DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF CHERYL SUDWEEKS VOLUME I TAKEN AT: Christensen & Jensen 50 South Main Street Suite 1500 Salt Lake City, Utah 84144 DATE: October 30, 2006 REPORTED BY: DANIELLE LITTLE, RPR, CSR 1 A P P E A R A N C E S 2 For the Plaintiff: Ryan Tenney 3 Ken Parkinson HOWARD, LEWIS & PETERSEN, P.C. 4 120 East 300 North Provo, Utah 84606 5 For the Defendant: 6 Phillip S. Ferguson Ruth Shapiro 7 CHRISTENSEN & JENSEN, P.C. 50 South Main Street 8 Suite 1500 Salt Lake City, Utah 84144 9 Also Present: 10 Mark Sudweeks 11 -oOo- 12 I N D E X 13 EXAMINATION PAGE BY MR. TENNEY........................... 3 14 15 -oOo- 16 17 E X H I B I T S 18 NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE 19 25 EMPLOYEE LOG 99 20 26 DEFENDANTS' ANSWERS AND RESPONSES 142 TO PLAINTIFFS' FIRST SET OF 21 INTERROGATORIES AND REQUEST FOR PRODUCTION OF DOCUMENTS 22 27 TRIP LOG 154 23 28 POLICY & PROCEDURES MANUAL 182 24 29 RESPONSIBILITY, INITIATIVE AND 183 25 ATTITUDE PACKETS DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 2 1 October 30, 2006 9:40 a.m. 2 3 4 P R O C E E D I N G S 5 6 CHERYL SUDWEEKS, 7 8 called as a witness, having been duly sworn, 9 was examined and testified as follows: 10 11 EXAMINATION 12 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. Good morning, Ms. Sudweeks. My name is Ryan 15 Tenney. I'm here today on behalf of the plaintiffs in a 16 civil suit that's been filed against you. I'll try to speak 17 slowly. It's my tendency to speak fast. So I'll try to 18 help the court reporter stay up. Have you ever been deposed 19 before? 20 A. No. 21 Q. This is the first time? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you understand that you're under oath to tell 24 the truth? 25 A. Yeah. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 3 1 Q. The court reporter here will be typing down 2 everything that we say today. She'll be making a record for 3 our use later. It's important for us to try to make her job 4 as easy as possible. One of the things that you and I will 5 both need to try to do today is try to avoid any nonverbal 6 responses, uh-huh, uh-uh, that sort of thing. 7 A. I know. 8 Q. It will be hard. Don't worry about it if you slip 9 up. From time to time I may try to correct you if I hear 10 that you said an uh-huh or uh-uh. Don't worry about that if 11 you do that. Sound good? 12 A. Yeah. I mean uh-huh. Yes. 13 Q. From time to time I may ask you questions that are 14 unclear to you. If at any point I ask you a question and 15 you don't understand what I was asking, feel free to 16 interrupt me and feel free to ask me to clarify. I'd be 17 happy to do that to try to make my questions as clear as 18 possible. Is that fair? 19 A. That's fair. 20 Q. Also, I'll be asking you a lot of questions today 21 that will call upon you to try to remember things that 22 happened several years in the past. Try to give your best 23 recollection and your most accurate recollection. But if at 24 any point later on in the deposition you remember details 25 that you had forgotten before, feel free to stop us and DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 4 1 we'll go back and add those details as needed. Sound good? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you have any questions before we get going? 4 A. Yeah. Can I keep a pencil then in case? 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. My memory is bad. 7 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 8 held.) 9 BY MR. TENNEY: 10 Q. Before we get into the substantive stuff are you 11 on any medications today? 12 A. Not yet. 13 Q. Okay. 14 A. But I will be. 15 Q. You will be during the deposition or after the 16 deposition? 17 A. My daughter is dropping them off here. So they're 18 antibiotics and some potassium. 19 Q. Okay. Are you aware of whether they have any 20 effects on your ability to think clearly or recall details 21 or anything like that? 22 A. I've never had a problem before. 23 Q. Okay. What is your understanding of the lawsuit 24 that's been filed against you? Just in general terms what 25 is your understanding you have been sued for? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 5 1 A. That's a big one. That's a huge question. Like 2 are you talking about personally how I feel? 3 Q. Okay. Let me be more specific. That was my first 4 unclear question. The first of many. 5 Have you read the amended complaint that's been 6 filed against you? 7 A. I tried to. I couldn't finish it. 8 Q. Are you aware of who the plaintiffs are? 9 A. I think so. 10 Q. As we go through this deposition from time to time 11 you or I may refer to them collectively as the plaintiffs. 12 And I thought before we got into that we ought to make this 13 clear for the record who we're talking about. 14 I'm going to go ahead and represent to you who the 15 plaintiffs are. Just for purpose of the record the 16 plaintiffs in this action are Justin Beasley and his mother, 17 Susan Beasley; Justin Busa and his mother, Michelle 18 Demichelli; Erica Cira and her mother, Mary Cira; Joey 19 Hamson and his parents. Their first name is Tim and 20 Kristina Hamson. Kleebergers -- Lindsey Kleeberger and her 21 parents. 22 (Whereupon, the reporter asked for clarification.) 23 THE WITNESS: Tim's father or mother? 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. The Hamsons. Joey and his parents. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 6 1 A. Both? 2 Q. Yeah. 3 A. But not in the case of the others? 4 Q. No. Let's go back and make sure we've got this 5 clear. When I say plaintiffs I'm talking about Justin 6 Beasley and his mother, Susan. 7 A. But not his father? 8 Q. Not his father. Justin Busa and his mother, 9 Michelle Demichelli. Not his father. Erica Cira and her 10 mother, Mary Cira. Not her father. 11 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 12 held.) 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. Joey Hamson and both of his parents. If I 15 remember his father's name is Tim. Is that right? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Tim Hamson and his mother, Kristina. Lindsey 18 Kleeberger and both her parents, Kent and Gwen Kleeberger, 19 K-L-E-E-B-E-R-G-E-R. Jenna Sager and her mother, Patricia 20 Sager. Leah Schacherer, S-C-H-A-C-H-E-R-E-R, and her 21 mother, Janet, and her grandmother, Susan. And then Shawn 22 Snider and his mother, Connie. 23 So there will be some questions that will be 24 specific to some of those individual plaintiffs. But from 25 time to time if you or I refer to the plaintiffs that's who DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 7 1 we're talking about. Is that clear? 2 A. Yeah. Can I ask you a question? 3 Q. Sure. 4 A. How does that work? How come the fathers aren't 5 suing? 6 Q. We'll be happy to talk about that off the record 7 once we're done with the deposition. 8 What did you do to prepare for your deposition 9 today? 10 A. Well, I wanted to prepare by relaxing. But we had 11 a grandchild and the baby got sick. And we ended up 12 baby-sitting a lot of little kids and that's not very 13 relaxing. And so I don't think we're as prepared as we 14 wanted to be. 15 Q. Have you had a chance to review any notes or files 16 or anything to refresh your memory regarding these events? 17 A. Not as much as I wanted to. I probably skimmed -- 18 I skimmed which ones? Shawn's -- I couldn't do it when they 19 sent them over at first. Is it okay if I talk like this? 20 Q. Yes. 21 MR. FERGUSON: Just answer his question. Which is 22 what did you do to prepare? 23 THE WITNESS: I read some of the deposition 24 summaries. 25 BY MR. TENNEY: DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 8 1 Q. When did you do that? 2 A. Two weeks ago. 3 Q. Okay. Have you read the depositions of the 4 plaintiffs at any time? 5 A. I have not. 6 Q. Have you read any of them? 7 A. I've read, like I said, a couple summaries. 8 Q. Do you remember which plaintiffs those summaries 9 were for? 10 A. I said Shawn. 11 Q. Is that the only one you remember reading? 12 A. I can't remember if I read his mom's or not. 13 Q. Did you go over -- did you read through any files, 14 any notes, anything like that in addition to those 15 deposition summaries? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Have you talked to anybody -- other than your 18 attorneys have you talked to anybody to remind yourself of 19 the events in question? 20 A. You're going to have to say that one again. 21 Q. Other than your attorneys -- I don't want to know 22 anything that you've talked about with your attorneys. 23 Other than them have you talked to anybody -- your husband, 24 former workers, former students, anybody involved with 25 Whitmore Academy -- to remind yourself of the events that DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 9 1 we're going to be talking about? 2 A. No. Most people don't like to talk about it. 3 Q. Have you ever been sued before? 4 A. No, not to my recollection. 5 Q. This is the first time you've ever been the 6 defendant in a civil lawsuit? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Have you ever sued anybody before? 9 A. Nope. No. 10 Q. Nope works as well. 11 So this is the first civil lawsuit you've ever 12 been involved in? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do I remember right there was some civil lawsuit 15 involving Leah Schacherer and some horses? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Small claims specifically. 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. A small claims lawsuit that was settled about a 19 year ago? 20 A. I didn't know I was involved with that. 21 Q. Did you ever attend a hearing in small claims 22 court regarding Leah Schacherer and -- 23 A. I was at a hearing, but I wasn't on the stand or 24 anything. 25 Q. Were you a party to that lawsuit? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 10 1 A. I must not have been if I wasn't sitting in the 2 chairs that the people involved were. 3 Q. I didn't ask if you've ever testified. 4 A. In my mind -- 5 Q. Were you a party though? 6 A. Not any more than -- no, not that I know of. 7 Q. That sounds good. 8 A. Can I ask? 9 MS. SHAPIRO: No. 10 MR. FERGUSON: No. You're here to answer 11 questions. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. For me to my knowledge no. 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. I understand that -- it's my understanding that 15 you were charged criminally with respect to some allegations 16 relating to four of the plaintiffs. Is that correct? 17 MR. FERGUSON: I'm instructing her not to answer 18 about criminal charges. You can ask her if she's been 19 convicted of a felony. But beyond that don't answer the 20 question. 21 MR. TENNEY: Phil, correct me if I'm wrong. My 22 understanding was that she had agreed to waive the Fifth 23 Amendment in turn for us moving the depositions. 24 MR. FERGUSON: Sure. You can ask her anything you 25 want about the case. You can't ask her about the criminal DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 11 1 case. It has nothing to do with this lawsuit. 2 MR. TENNEY: I'm going to ask a couple of 3 questions anyway. She can choose to answer or not answer as 4 she chooses. Sound good? 5 MR. FERGUSON: You can ask. 6 BY MR. TENNEY: 7 Q. All right. It's my understanding that you were 8 charged criminally with respect to allegations made by four 9 of the plaintiffs in this case. Is that correct? 10 MR. FERGUSON: Don't answer the question. 11 BY MR. TENNEY: 12 Q. It's my understanding that you entered into a plea 13 bargain with respect to those charges. Is that correct? 14 MR. FERGUSON: Don't answer that question. 15 MR. PARKINSON: Hold on. What's the basis for 16 that? 17 MR. FERGUSON: The only admissible evidence in a 18 civil case is a conviction of a felony. And then only some 19 felonies that are less than ten years old. These questions 20 are not the least bit admissible at trial. 21 MR. PARKINSON: That's not the standard. The 22 standard is is to likely to lead to admissible evidence. 23 And it's very -- it's the same facts and circumstances. It 24 definitely is likely to lead to admissible evidence. 25 MR. FERGUSON: You can ask about the facts and DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 12 1 circumstances. We're not putting any limit on that. 2 MS. SHAPIRO: As far as the civil suit. 3 MR. FERGUSON: You can't ask about the criminal 4 case. The criminal case is not calculated to lead to 5 admissible evidence. 6 MR. PARKINSON: I absolutely disagree with you. 7 MR. FERGUSON: What can you admit in evidence 8 about her having been in a plea bargain or charged or 9 anything else in the criminal case? It doesn't come into 10 evidence. 11 MR. PARKINSON: It certainly is an opening way to 12 discuss these matters. I'll return that back to Ryan. 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. I've just got a few more questions. And I'll ask 15 them and you can do what you want. What was the disposition 16 in that case? 17 MR. FERGUSON: Don't answer that question. 18 BY MR. TENNEY: 19 Q. It's my understanding that as part of the plea 20 bargain that you entered into in that case you agreed to not 21 operate a business involving children in Juab County again. 22 Is that correct? 23 MR. FERGUSON: Don't answer that question. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. It's my understanding that as part of that plea DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 13 1 bargain you did not pay any monetary amount as restitution 2 for that case. Is that correct? 3 MR. FERGUSON: Don't answer that question. 4 BY MR. TENNEY: 5 Q. Okay. Where are you living right now? 6 A. We just moved to British Columbia Canada. 7 Q. What's your address there? 8 A. General Delivery, Kleena Kleene, BC. Postal Code 9 VOL1MO. But I don't want that to be like in the newspapers 10 and stuff. 11 Q. No, I have no intention of -- 12 A. So you're not divulging this information to 13 anybody? 14 Q. We'll talk about that later as well. When did you 15 move to Canada? 16 A. I've got to write that down or else I'll forget. 17 Q. Okay. Tell me when you're ready. 18 A. We moved to Canada in 1985. 19 Q. We'll go there in a minute. You said that you 20 just recently moved to Canada. When was recently? 21 A. Well, we have a home there since 1985. And we 22 moved back between two weeks ago. 23 Q. Okay. How about if I ask it this way. During the 24 past year if you could tell me where you've been living 25 during the past year. If there's multiple places where DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 14 1 you've been living during the past year, if you could just 2 walk me through where you've been living during the past 3 year. 4 A. During the past year most of the year was spent in 5 Nephi at 283 -- 282 South, Nephi, Utah. 6 Q. Is that the home that's referred to as the boys' 7 house? 8 A. Not by me. 9 Q. Is that the home that some people associate -- 10 strike that. 11 Give me the address again. 12 A. 282 West, Nephi, Utah. 13 Q. Okay. What months did you live there during the 14 past year? 15 A. I couldn't tell you. 16 Q. Other than -- 17 A. I can think about it. Hold on. 18 Q. Sure. Please. 19 A. Off and on from August to now. 20 Q. Where were you before August? 21 A. In Mexico. 22 Q. By August we're talking August of 2006? 23 A. (Witness nods head.) 24 Q. So prior to August of 2006 you were in Mexico. 25 How long were you in Mexico? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 15 1 A. Seven months. 2 Q. So that would go back to January? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. And then where were you before that? Just go back 5 as far as say September of last year. 6 A. As far as where? 7 Q. As far as September of 2005. You were in Mexico 8 from January to August of 2006. Where were you before 9 January of 2006? 10 A. Okay. In September we spent most of that month in 11 Canada. 12 Q. Same address where you are right now? 13 A. Uh-huh. And in October I don't remember. But 14 usually we're in a couple places in October. November and 15 December were both spent at that address. 16 Q. Since September of 2005 have you had any students 17 with you at any time? 18 A. Students no. 19 Q. Who has been with you since September of 2005? 20 Who have you lived with since then? 21 A. My son, Brek. And he's 13. My daughter, Laeysa. 22 And she's 14. And Jesse Bratch. He's 16 or 17. And Jordan 23 Radoci. And she's 16. 24 Q. Jesse and Jordan what's their relationship to you? 25 A. Very good friends with their parents. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 16 1 Q. Were their parents staying with you or just the 2 two kids? 3 A. Mostly Jordan's parents were there. 4 Q. When you say mostly what do you mean? 5 A. Well, they were in the process of moving. So they 6 were moving from Maryland to Los Angeles. And there were 7 odd weeks that they couldn't be there. 8 Q. So did Jesse and Jordan's parents live with you as 9 well? 10 A. No. 11 Q. So just the kids themselves? 12 A. Yeah. 13 Q. And why were they living with you again? 14 A. Well, Jesse's mom passed away. And he really 15 didn't have anywhere to go. 16 Q. Had you had a prior relationship with Jesse of 17 some sort? Had he lived with you before I guess is my 18 question? 19 A. Jesse was in the boarding school when we had the 20 boarding school. 21 Q. How about Jordan? 22 A. Yeah, she was too. 23 Q. During the past year have you been offering -- 24 A. So was her brother. 25 Q. Her brother, Sky? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 17 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. During the past year did you offer therapeutic 3 services of any kind to Jesse or Jordan? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you offer any educational services of any 6 kind? 7 A. No. Just the home schooling that we do with our 8 son. 9 Q. So did you administer the home schooling for those 10 two kids? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Did their parents -- did either of their parents 13 pay you any monies during the past year? 14 A. What do you mean by administer? 15 Q. Did you supervise their education in any way? 16 A. I wish you would look at me when you talk to me. 17 It's really hard for me when people are talking and they 18 don't look at me. 19 Q. I'll do my best. Did you supervise their 20 education? 21 A. No. I didn't supervise them any more than I did 22 my own son. 23 Q. What does that mean? What do you do for your own 24 son as far as his education? 25 A. Do you have children? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 18 1 Q. I get to ask the questions actually. So what do 2 you do for your son as far as his education? 3 A. Well, this part is pertinent to your -- 4 Q. No, I don't have kids. 5 A. Well, when you have children you have a certain 6 responsibility -- any kids. I mean, my grandkids when they 7 come over I have a certain responsibility to supervise them. 8 But, yeah, whenever there's children that are with me I feel 9 responsible for what they're doing. 10 Q. So then the supervision that you had for Jesse and 11 Jordan's schooling is the same supervision that you had for 12 your grandkids' schooling. Is that what you're saying? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. What does that mean? 15 A. Well, that's a broad question so I'll give it to 16 you. 17 Q. All right. Give me what you can give me. 18 A. I means when anybody is with me the way that I 19 live I don't work out of a daytimer all the time, but I'm on 20 a schedule. And I have certain things I do throughout the 21 day. And people who are living with me are required to work 22 as a team. Whether it's dishes or taking care of the horses 23 or -- 24 Q. Let's put that stuff aside for a minute. Let's 25 just talk about the education with Jordan and Jesse. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 19 1 A. Yeah, there's certain times of the day that I 2 expect my kids to read. 3 Q. Were they going to school during the past year? 4 Were they going to any particular school facility? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Where was their homework coming from? 7 A. Well, when we were in Mexico sometimes it was on 8 the beach. Sometimes it was in the cabin. Sometimes it was 9 at our Mexican friends' house learning Spanish. Sometimes 10 it was going to the museum. 11 Q. Let me stop you there. That was my fault. That 12 question was less than clear. Rather than asking it as a 13 where question let me just ask you what homework were 14 they -- what was the curriculum they were working on during 15 the past year? What schoolwork were they doing? Who was 16 giving them schoolwork to do? 17 A. Mother nature. I feel that she's the best teacher 18 we have. 19 Q. Were they turning in homework to anybody in 20 particular? 21 A. Actually, no. 22 Q. Were you grading any schoolwork that they were 23 doing? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Were you passing off any schoolwork that they were DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 20 1 doing? 2 A. Yeah, I keep a record. 3 Q. So they were submitting schoolwork to you during 4 the past year? 5 A. No. I said I keep a record. 6 Q. What was the record that you were keeping? 7 A. Well, anyone who lives with me can tell you I do 8 things by rewards and consequences. And if they wanted to 9 go to the pig roast on Saturday night they had to have a 10 book report turned in to me every day. Whether it was my 11 grandkids, my son -- 12 Q. That's what I'm asking. The book reports they 13 were doing, the homework they were doing were they turning 14 that work into you? Yes or no? 15 A. No. Actually, we were tracking it just to make 16 sure that it was done. 17 Q. Okay. You were the person that was tracking 18 whether they were doing their homework. Is that correct? 19 A. Yeah. 20 Q. Are you aware of any other -- 21 A. Me and them and sometimes my daughters. 22 Q. Are you aware of anybody else that was involved in 23 tracking whether they were doing any homework? 24 A. Oh, I'm sure there was. But I'm not aware who 25 they were. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 21 1 Q. Where were you born? 2 A. Eugene, Oregon. 3 Q. And what year were you born? 4 A. 1955. 5 Q. Did you graduate from high school? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Which high school? 8 A. Continuation high school from Federal Way, 9 Washington. 10 Q. Federal? 11 A. Federal Way. 12 Q. Where is that in Washington? 13 A. It's about -- do you know where Tacoma is? 14 Q. Vaguely. 15 A. It's between Tacoma and Seattle on the Puget 16 Sound. 17 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 18 held.) 19 BY MR. TENNEY: 20 Q. Where did you go to college? 21 A. I went to UVSC, but I never got anything from it. 22 Q. What year did you start at UVSC? 23 A. Nobody has asked me that in a really long time. 24 Q. I'm here to ask the hard questions. 25 A. Okay. Approximately -- because I cannot be sure. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 22 1 Q. Sure. 2 A. `71, `72. 3 Q. How many years did you study at UVSC? 4 A. A semester. 5 Q. And did you have a particular major or minor or 6 emphasis of study of any kind? 7 A. Yes. I wanted to go into dance. I was going to 8 UVSC so that I could get into BYU. And my counselor was 9 helping me. 10 Q. You said you only went for a semester. Is that 11 correct? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. What happened that made you stop going to UVSC? 14 A. I fell in love with my husband and we got married. 15 Q. So why did you stop going to school? 16 A. Because there's 13 kids in my family and my 17 parents did not -- could not afford to pay for my tuition, 18 and I had to hold two jobs. 19 Q. Did you ever go back to UVSC for more schooling? 20 A. I've taken odd classes, but I'm not sure -- I 21 mean, nothing towards a degree. 22 Q. What odd classes have you taken? 23 A. You're making me think. I couldn't tell you. 24 Q. When was this that you took these odd classes? 25 A. Probably in the `70s. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 23 1 Q. Have you taken anything -- any classes at UVSC 2 since the `70s? 3 A. I wish I could ask him a question. He's my brain. 4 I've got my CNA. 5 Q. Which is? 6 A. It's towards my nursing degree. 7 Q. When did you get that? 8 A. Two years ago -- 9 Q. From what institution? 10 A. -- maybe. 11 Q. From what institution? 12 A. It's not from an institution. It's just a 13 certificate. 14 Q. Where did you go to take classes to get the CNA? 15 A. The classes I took were at the high school. And 16 then -- 17 Q. At which high school? 18 A. Juab County. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. And then the test is given at UVSC and in 21 Richfield. 22 Q. Is it a state certification? Is that what it is? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. You said you got that about two years ago? 25 A. I never did take the test, but that's where I took DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 24 1 the classes. 2 Q. So you took the classes in approximately 2004? 3 A. Approximately. 4 Q. Other than the CNA classes you took have you taken 5 any other classes following your time at UVSC in the 6 1972ish? 7 A. See, to me that's a broad question too. 8 Q. To me it's a broad question too. But give me the 9 best answer you can. 10 A. Like I've said our best open classrooms are mother 11 nature. 12 Q. Okay. Other than mother nature classes -- I'm 13 just interested in educational institutions. What 14 educational classes have you taken since your time at UVSC? 15 A. Well, then you need to say educational 16 institutions because -- 17 Q. Okay. Other than mother nature what educational 18 classes have you taken since your time at UVSC in the 1970s? 19 It's not that hard of a question. 20 A. No. A lot of equine classes. 21 Q. From whom? 22 A. Dee Butterfield. 23 Q. When did you take those? 24 A. `83, `84. 25 Q. Okay. Anything else? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 25 1 A. Not to my recollection. 2 Q. Do you have any degrees of any kind in therapy? I 3 mean by -- just to make this clear by degrees I'm talking 4 about degrees from an educational institution, not from 5 mother nature. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Tell me what you mean by therapy. 7 Physical therapy? 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. Any kind of therapy. Physical therapy, any 10 therapy. Do you have any degree in therapy? 11 A. No, I have no degrees from any educational 12 institutions that give those kind of degrees. 13 Q. Okay. Do you have any degrees from any 14 educational institutions in social work? 15 A. No, I have no degrees from any institutions that 16 give. 17 Q. Let me just walk through a couple others just to 18 make sure we're clear on this. Do you have any degrees from 19 any educational institutions in psychology? 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. What about in teaching? 22 A. Not from an educational institute. 23 Q. What degrees do you have in teaching from a 24 noneducational institute? 25 A. I don't have any degrees. I have certificates. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 26 1 Q. From whom? 2 A. From different courses I've taken on emotional 3 healing. 4 Q. What courses are those? 5 A. Feelings buried alive never die. 6 Q. What institution offered those? 7 A. I just told you it's not from an institution. 8 Q. So who taught the course? 9 A. The course is offered through Carol Truman. 10 Q. Who is Carol Truman? 11 A. The teacher. 12 Q. Where is she located? 13 A. At this point I'm not sure because she just moved 14 from Las Vegas. 15 Q. Where did you take those classes? Physically 16 where were you when you took those classes? 17 A. Physically I was in my home. 18 Q. So she came to your home and taught you? 19 A. No. It's just through the Internet. 20 Q. Okay. Did you get a certificate from Ms. Truman 21 or what was the result of that class? 22 A. The completion of the class. 23 Q. How did she signify that you had completed her 24 class? 25 A. I can't remember if she gave a certificate or DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 27 1 what. But we work with her information with the kids. 2 Q. Let's talk about your physical health for just a 3 few moments. Do you have cancer? 4 A. Do I have to answer those kind of questions? 5 MR. FERGUSON: You don't have to, but it would 6 be -- if you know I would recommend that you answer it. But 7 I don't think it's relevant. 8 THE WITNESS: The doctor that I go to recommends 9 that I never claim cancer. So if you don't mind I don't 10 want to claim any cancer. I have been told that I have had 11 cancer. 12 BY MR. TENNEY: 13 Q. That you have had or that you have? 14 A. That I have had. 15 Q. What type of cancer was that? 16 A. In the pituitary. 17 Q. When were you told that? 18 A. And in the brain a tumor. 19 Q. Any other cancers? 20 A. Some in the liver. 21 Q. So we've got the brain and the pituitary and the 22 liver. When were you told that you had these cancers? 23 MR. FERGUSON: What is the relevance of this line 24 of questioning, Ryan? I'm having a hard time understanding 25 it. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 28 1 MR. TENNEY: Well, Ms. Sudweeks has been 2 representing to people that she's qualified to care after 3 their kids. And I think her physical health to a limited 4 degree is very relevant to whether she was capable of caring 5 after their kids. That to me is the relevance. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Pretty thin. If you can answer 7 it -- 8 MR. TENNEY: Phillip, just so you know we're not 9 going to get into this to a super -- 10 THE WITNESS: Is this what depositions are? 11 MR. TENNEY: This is what depositions are. We're 12 not going to go that extensive. But I am going to walk 13 through just a basic -- I just want to know the major 14 physical conditions she's had. 15 THE WITNESS: I really don't feel comfortable at 16 all. 17 MR. TENNEY: Well, I feel comfortable asking them. 18 MR. FERGUSON: Here's the problem you have, 19 Ryan -- that you and we. About everything that happens in 20 this case ends up on the Internet in one way or another. 21 You're asking a lot of personal stuff that has got very a 22 tangential relationship to the lawsuit. 23 I have a lot of misgivings about where this kind 24 of information will go. I don't see that it gets us 25 anywhere in the lawsuit. The notion that somehow a person DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 29 1 with cancer can't teach kids I think is without foundation. 2 Those are my concerns. 3 MR. TENNEY: I appreciate your concerns. I do. 4 MR. FERGUSON: You know, if we could have some 5 kind of a representation from you that her health 6 circumstances are kept confidential, I think we'd both feel 7 a lot more comfortable about it. 8 MS. SHAPIRO: Can we go off the record for a 9 minute. 10 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 11 held.) 12 MR. FERGUSON: While we were off the record we've 13 discussed our concerns about confidentiality of personal 14 health information of both the physical and mental nature. 15 I have not instructed Cheryl Sudweeks not to answer the 16 questions. But I have expressed concerns about the 17 information being disseminated to the plaintiffs who we know 18 are putting this information -- 19 MR. TENNEY: I'd object to that. There's no proof 20 on the record that any of the plaintiffs are putting 21 anything on the Internet. 22 MR. FERGUSON: Oh, quite the contrary. 23 MR. TENNEY: Okay. We'll get into that when we 24 need to. 25 THE WITNESS: We needed to a year ago. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 30 1 MR. FERGUSON: We've got a ton of proof that your 2 guys are putting stuff on the Internet. But we don't want 3 it on the Internet. That's basically what we're saying. 4 If you will agree that the transcript of the 5 portions of Cheryl's deposition that relate to her personal 6 health, mental or physical, will not be given to your 7 clients, and we agree that you can discuss the issues with 8 your clients, we'll allow you to ask the questions. 9 MR. TENNEY: Discuss the issues and the 10 information just to be clear about that? 11 MR. FERGUSON: Sure. 12 BY MR. TENNEY: 13 Q. So just to be clear as far as my line of 14 questioning goes I'm going to have a few questions right now 15 about your physical health. Following that I'm going to 16 have a few questions about your mental health. And we will 17 not send the written copies of this deposition regarding 18 those two portions out to the clients. Is that fair? 19 A. You can send them my statements about the mental 20 health. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. FERGUSON: We'll make that call. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 MR. TENNEY: I'm happy sending anything. 25 MS. SHAPIRO: The attorneys representations and DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 31 1 aversions stand. 2 MR. TENNEY: All right. Are we all clear? 3 MS. SHAPIRO: Yes. 4 BY MR. TENNEY: 5 Q. All right. Returning to our previous conversation 6 my notes indicate you said that you've been told you've had 7 brain cancer, pituitary cancer and liver cancer. Is that 8 correct? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Any other cancers? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Who told you that you had those cancers? 13 A. Helen Doxey. 14 Q. Who is Helen Doxey? 15 A. I'm not through. 16 Q. Sorry. 17 A. Helen Doxey, Jim Parker -- Dr. Parker, and one 18 other doctor. 19 Q. What was his name? 20 A. I don't remember. Peter I think. 21 Q. What kind of doctors were Helen Doxey and Jim 22 Parker? 23 A. Jim Parker is a woman's health doctor. And Peter 24 is the family doctor. 25 Q. I'm not sure I got that. Helen Doxey is what? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 32 1 A. And Helen Doxey is an alternative doctor. 2 Q. What does that mean, alternative doctor? 3 A. Different ways of dealing with cancer. 4 Q. Do you know if she has an M.D.? 5 A. No, she doesn't. 6 Q. Okay. Does Jim Parker have an M.D.? 7 A. Yes, he does. 8 Q. And so you said he was a woman's doctor. Do you 9 mean was he an ob/gyn? 10 A. He's a specialist. 11 Q. He's the one that told you you had brain cancer. 12 Is that right? 13 A. He's the one that found on the MRI the pituitary. 14 Q. Were you told you had these three cancers all at 15 the same time? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Tell me when you were told about each of 18 these three cancers? 19 A. Within a three month period. 20 Q. When was that three month period? 21 A. 19 -- I'm guessing. 1995. 22 Q. Other than being told you had these three cancers 23 in 1995 have you ever been told that you had any other 24 cancer? 25 A. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 33 1 Q. Have you ever been hospitalized during the past 2 ten years? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Let me clarify my question just so we don't go in 5 areas that we don't want to go into. Have you ever been 6 hospitalized during the past ten years for a period of more 7 than two nights? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. Tell me about those. 10 A. I still don't see why. Tell you about those? 11 Q. Yeah. When were you hospitalized for a period of 12 more than two nights? 13 A. I had an emergency hysterectomy. 14 Q. Okay. When was that? 15 A. About -- I'm just saying about because I don't 16 know. `94. 17 Q. Okay. Any other times? 18 A. Last week. 19 Q. What was that for? 20 A. It wasn't for a week. Nevermind. It wasn't for 21 more than two nights. 22 Last year. 23 Q. What were you hospitalized for? 24 A. They took me for an anxiety and stress. It was 25 really hard when all this happened. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 34 1 Q. When all of what happened? 2 A. When we found out that Susan Schacherer and the 3 Hamsons and Susan Beasley they put our garments on the 4 Internet -- our underwear. 5 Q. They put your garments on the Internet? What does 6 that mean? They put photos of your garments? Is that what 7 you mean? 8 A. Yes, they did. 9 Q. When did they do that? 10 A. Yes, they did. And they were trashing our church 11 and Mormonism. And they were saying horrendous lies about 12 us. 13 Q. We'll get into all that. 14 A. And they accused -- well, you asked me why. 15 Q. Actually, what I asked you was -- 16 A. When I read it -- 17 Q. What I asked you, Ms. Sudweeks, is when you had 18 been hospitalized and what for. We'll get into the 19 discussion about the Internet and all that. 20 A. I just told you what for. 21 MR. FERGUSON: She's trying to describe for you as 22 I understand of what lead to the anxiety and stress. 23 MR. TENNEY: I apologize. Keep going. 24 THE WITNESS: The kids brought their computer to 25 me and showed me what your clients had written on Fornits. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 35 1 And I lost control of my breathing. 2 BY MR. TENNEY: 3 Q. How long were you hospitalized for? 4 A. A week. 5 Q. When was this? 6 A. Just last year around July. 7 Q. Any other times you've been hospitalized for more 8 than two nights? 9 A. Yeah. September 11th year. 10 Q. So 2001? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. What was that for? 13 A. Cellulitis. 14 Q. What's cellulitis? 15 A. It's a very dangerous infection in your body. 16 Q. During any of these periods of hospitalization did 17 you inform the parents of the students that were you with at 18 that time that you had been hospitalized? 19 A. Of course. They were very involved with us. They 20 would know if I was in the hospital for more than a day or 21 two. 22 Q. Did you have a policy for how to deal with that 23 sort of thing? Or did you just as a matter of routine send 24 out a letter to the parents? How did that communication 25 happen? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 36 1 A. It doesn't sound like you know how our program 2 works. 3 Q. That's what we're here to find out today. 4 A. Well, if you want to find out that I'd love to 5 talk about it. 6 Q. Okay. We'll do this piece by piece. And the 7 piece I'm asking right now is when you had to be 8 hospitalized for more than two nights how would you inform 9 the parents? 10 A. At that time -- each time is different. 11 Q. Okay. So you didn't have a set way of dealing 12 with this? 13 A. Well, there was always a set way of dealing -- 14 Q. What was the set way? 15 A. -- with things. My authority would go to the 16 person who was under me. 17 Q. Okay. And then as far as the communication -- all 18 I'm asking about is the communication. 19 A. And the first thing they're told to do is to 20 communicate that they will be taking over my 21 responsibilities while I'm gone. 22 Q. Okay. So were they instructed then to call all 23 the parents whenever you were hospitalized? 24 A. They sent e-mails. 25 Q. Was that your policy? Is that the communication DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 37 1 happened by e-mail in these circumstances? 2 A. Probably 90 percent of our communication was 3 through e-mail. 4 Q. Okay. So let's just take those examples. You 5 said that in 2001 you were hospitalized because of 6 cellulitis. How were the parents informed at that time? 7 A. At that time there was only -- I don't remember. 8 But maybe five kids that were with us. 9 Q. What about when you had your anxiety attack last 10 year? How were the parents informed at that time? 11 A. I never finished your first question. 12 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. 13 A. So because there was only five kids it was really 14 easy for me to talk to them on the phone and we had a close 15 relationship. 16 Q. Okay. Are you done with that answer? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. What about when you had your anxiety attack 19 last year? How did you inform the parents of that? 20 A. Last year? 21 Q. Wasn't that what you said that you had an anxiety 22 attack last year and were hospitalized? Or did I mishear 23 you? 24 A. No, when you said that I'm thinking it could have 25 been a year before. Can I ask Mark? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 38 1 Q. No. 2 A. Okay. It was when my grandson was born. So 3 however old he is. I think he might be over -- it might 4 have been two years ago. 5 So, yeah, at that time there were still a few 6 kids -- a lot of kids. Which was actually a lot easier for 7 me. Because through our staff the kids do reports every 8 day -- every single day. So of course that would have been 9 in the report. 10 Q. How was that report circulated to the parents? 11 A. Through the e-mail. 12 Q. So an e-mail went out to all the parents with your 13 report? 14 A. Well, it goes up on the web site and the parents 15 check the web site. And if they have any questions then 16 they e-mail us. 17 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you a few questions about 18 your mental health and then we'll move off this subject, 19 okay? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Have you ever seen a therapist during the past ten 22 years? 23 A. I saw Tim Lowe, Todd Powers, Bernie Farrow. But 24 not for personal reasons. 25 Q. Okay. Let me make sure my question is more DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 39 1 specific then. Have you ever personally seen a therapist to 2 receive therapy for yourself during the past ten years? 3 A. No, I've never had the luxury ever. 4 Q. What do you mean by that? You've never had the 5 luxury? 6 A. I think that therapists can be really helpful if 7 you have issues that they understand. They can get you on 8 the right track. Or there's some that can't. But I really 9 didn't ever have that option. 10 But that's what I tell the kids. The kids who 11 usually -- 90 percent of the kids hate therapists. And they 12 don't want to talk to them and they'll do anything to avoid 13 it. And I always tell them that I think they're lucky that 14 they get the chance to see whether they like them or not. 15 Q. Have you ever been treated for depression during 16 the past ten years? 17 A. No, I have not. 18 Q. Have you ever been diagnosed as being bipolar 19 during the past ten years? 20 A. No, I haven't. 21 Q. Has anyone ever told you that they think you're 22 bipolar during the past ten years? 23 A. No, they haven't. 24 Q. By anyone I mean doctor, student, neighbor, 25 anybody. Has anybody ever told you that they think you're DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 40 1 bipolar? 2 A. Never. 3 Q. Have you ever been diagnosed as being 4 schizophrenic? 5 A. Never. 6 Q. As having ADD? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What about OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder? 9 A. No. Have you been around these problems? 10 Q. I get to ask the questions. That's the fun 11 thing about being -- 12 A. People ask you that? 13 Q. No, I get to ask the questions in the deposition. 14 That's the beauty of the system. 15 A. I'm sorry, but -- 16 Q. No, it's okay. You've never done this before. 17 This is new to you. But I get to ask the questions. That's 18 how this works. Sound good? 19 A. No one has ever asked me any of those things. 20 Q. Well, I'm guessing there's going to be a lot of 21 questions you're going to be asked today and tomorrow that 22 you've never been asked before. Is that okay with you? 23 A. Of course. 24 Q. Okay. Off we go. Have you ever been prescribed 25 any medications for any mental condition? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 41 1 A. When it was in 1977 our little boy died. And the 2 doctor wanted to prescribe me something because that's what 3 they do. And I told them I didn't want it so he didn't give 4 it to me. 5 Q. What was it he was trying to prescribe you? 6 A. Some kind of antianxiety. I was also asked that 7 last week too. 8 Q. You were asked that last week by whom? 9 A. We were at a doctor in Canada. I was having some 10 stress. This has been very emotional for us. And going 11 home and moving and all that we've had to go through it's 12 been hard. So I ended up at the hospital. 13 Q. This was last week? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. How long were you at the hospital for? 16 A. For just that night. 17 Q. Did you stay there overnight? 18 A. No. He wanted me to, but we had to come for these 19 depositions and I didn't want you to get mad. 20 Q. Why would I have gotten mad if you stayed 21 overnight at a hospital last week in Canada? 22 MR. FERGUSON: Because she wouldn't have been here 23 today. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. Oh, you had to make a flight? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 42 1 A. No. It's a 30 hour drive. 2 Q. Oh, you drove down here? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. That's probably not a lot of fun. 5 A. It's okay. I did this for you. 6 Q. I appreciate that. Thank you. 7 Have you ever taken -- at any time have you ever 8 taken Prozac? 9 A. No, I haven't. 10 Q. Have you ever taken Ritalin? 11 A. No, I haven't. 12 Q. Wellbutrin? 13 A. No, I haven't. 14 Q. Lexapro? 15 A. No, I haven't. 16 Q. What about last year when you -- 17 A. I just told you I didn't take any medications. 18 Q. That's true. Thank you. What about last year 19 when you were hospitalized for your anxiety attack? Did 20 they prescribe any medications for you? 21 A. They gave me an IV. 22 Q. What was in that IV? Do you know? 23 A. Potassium. That's one of my big problems. I'm 24 very depleted on potassium to a really dangerous level. And 25 that's all I know. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 43 1 Q. Did they give you anything for your anxiety? 2 MR. FERGUSON: That assumes potassium was not for 3 anxiety. 4 BY MR. TENNEY: 5 Q. Do you know if the potassium was meant to treat 6 your anxiety? 7 A. I don't think so. Because it's really important 8 that your levels are at a certain number -- 9 Q. Your potassium? 10 A. -- so that your body can function properly. 11 But not that I'm aware of. They might have. I 12 mean, I couldn't tell you. 13 Q. You don't remember either way? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever taken any illegal drugs? 16 A. Yeah. I told you that I have to take potassium. 17 Q. I'm sorry, illegal drugs? 18 A. Oh, illegal? 19 Q. Yeah, illegal drugs? 20 A. Heavens no. 21 Q. Okay. 22 MR. TENNEY: And for the record I've moved off of 23 my mental health, physical health questions. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. So you've never taken at any time marijuana? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 44 1 A. I never even smoked marijuana. That used to blow 2 the kids away. 3 Q. I have to ask the questions. 4 A. I didn't even take a puff. 5 Q. That's good. Cocaine? Have you ever taken any 6 cocaine? 7 A. No. And that's one drug I really -- I don't like 8 it when the kids get on because it makes them have split 9 personalities. 10 Q. Okay. Did you ever have kids that took cocaine 11 while they were under your care? 12 A. While they were with me? 13 Q. Yeah. 14 A. No. 15 Q. I mean, so when you say you didn't like it when 16 the kids were on that, were there drugs that the kids were 17 on that you were aware of? I'm just trying to understand 18 your answer. 19 MR. FERGUSON: Is your question did they take 20 drugs while they were at the school? 21 MR. TENNEY: Yeah. The question -- 22 MR. FERGUSON: Or are you asking if they were on 23 drugs when they were given -- when they came to the school? 24 I think that's the -- 25 MR. TENNEY: It's sort of the middle of the two. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 45 1 I'm actually just wondering what she meant by that. When 2 you said that that was the drug that you didn't like it when 3 the kids were on. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Since it's so broad I'll 5 answer you the best I can, but it will be a little broad. 6 Before most of the kids came to live with us probably at 7 least half of them have experimented with quite a few drugs. 8 We've got some bad drugs out there right now. 9 MR. TENNEY: Right. 10 THE WITNESS: And I know that Leah was on ecstasy 11 when she came to my daughter's wedding. 12 BY MR. TENNEY: 13 Q. Let me stop you there. How do you know that? 14 A. She told me. 15 Q. Leah told you personally that she was on ecstasy? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. Keep going. 18 A. Okay. She was supposed to be my daughter's 19 bridesmaid. 20 Q. Okay. 21 A. And when -- she got involved with drugs when she 22 moved over to Provo. I think it makes kids have 23 schizophrenia. I think it makes them two people. And it's 24 really scary when the one person comes out. 25 And I was really close to Leah and so it really DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 46 1 hurts. And then there's probably six or seven of them that 2 have got back into that kind of stuff. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And most of them are the ones here. 5 Q. That answers the question. Have you ever taken 6 prescription medications that have been prescribed for 7 anybody else? 8 A. No, I haven't. 9 Q. Let me be even more specific just to make 10 sure we're clear on this. Have you ever taken any pills 11 that have been prescribed for a student? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Let's go in a different area. You mention that 14 you and Mark met and married in the `70s. Where did you 15 meet? 16 A. Brigham Young University. 17 Q. When were you married? 18 A. 1974. 19 Q. If you could -- and feel free to take a minute 20 just to think this through or to jot this down. If you 21 could give me a list of where the two of you have lived 22 since your marriage in 1974 that would be helpful. 23 And by lived I mean for a period of longer than 24 three months. I just want a chronology of where you've 25 lived since you got married. Feel free to think about this. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 47 1 A. In 1974 when we got married we lived in Payson and 2 Provo. Mark worked at the State Hospital with troubled 3 teens. And we wanted to stick around as long as we could. 4 We got close to those kids and he did the recreation for 5 them. So we stayed until he got his master's degree in `75, 6 `76. And from there we moved to Canada. 7 Q. Where in Canada? I don't need an address, but 8 just give me a town. 9 A. It's up by Great Slave Lake. 10 Q. Great Slave Lake. Is that right? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 MS. SHAPIRO: That's in British Columbia, Ryan. 13 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 14 held.) 15 BY MR. TENNEY: 16 Q. So you were in Great Slave Lake from 1976 to when? 17 A. Well, we got up there and it's really north. It's 18 even further north than us about 15 hours. It's next to the 19 Northwest Territories. And there was permafrost melting and 20 it was in June. So it was horrible. 21 And we missed the kids that he had worked with. 22 And we wondered if we were on the right track because he got 23 his master's degree in education. And we thought do we 24 really want to do this or do we want to be involved with 25 kids. So we called the mayor and quit our job. And we went DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 48 1 on a long road trip. 2 Q. This was in 1976? 3 A. Uh-huh. For about a year. I'm just giving you 4 abouts. 5 Q. Sure. This is not going to be a test. 6 A. We landed in Bremmerton, Washington. 7 Q. How long were you in Bremmerton, Washington? 8 A. I don't know. Over a year. 9 Q. Okay. Where did you go from Bremmerton, 10 Washington? 11 A. I got pregnant with my son there. We took a job 12 in Othello, Washington. 13 Q. So that was 1978, is that right, roughly? 14 A. For the Othello School District. 15 Q. So you were in Othello, Washington from 1978ish 16 through when? 17 A. Not long. Maybe two years. 18 Q. So approximately 1980? 19 A. Yeah. And then we decided we wanted to get back 20 into kids. But he took a job over in Bremmerton. 21 Q. So you went back to Bremmerton? 22 A. Yeah. No. Did I say we went to Bremmerton 23 already? 24 Q. Yeah. You said you went to Bremmerton in 1977. 25 That's how I wrote that down. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 49 1 A. Okay. `74 -- when we left here we went to Canada 2 I said, didn't I? 3 Q. I've got that you were in Payson and Provo -- 4 correct me if I'm wrong on any of these steps. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. I've got that you were in Payson and Provo in 1974 7 through roughly 1976. 1976 you went to Great Slave Lake in 8 Canada. And you there until about 1977. Then you went to 9 Bremmerton, Washington. 10 A. Okay. You're right. 11 Q. You went from there to Othello, Washington from 12 about 1978 to about 1980. 13 A. You're right. 14 Q. I do my best. Where were you living in 1980? 15 A. We moved to Levinworth. 16 Q. Where is Levinworth? 17 A. Levinworth is beautiful. It's the Swiss Alps of 18 America. 19 Q. Where is it? 20 A. In Levinworth, Washington. 21 Q. How long were you in Levinworth, Washington? 22 A. We had a baby there. 23 Q. Okay. How long were you in Levinworth, 24 Washington? 25 A. I don't know. I'm thinking. Until `84. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 50 1 Q. Okay. And then where did you move in 1984? 2 A. Canada. 3 Q. Back to Canada. Where in Canada this time? 4 A. To the same place we've lived. 5 Q. Great Slave Lake? 6 A. No. We went to the Chicolton. 7 Q. Spell that for me. 8 A. C-H-I-C-O-L-T-O-N. 9 Q. T-O-N? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. Where is Chicolton? 12 A. It is in -- British Columbia is divided into like 13 three regions. 14 Q. It's in British Columbia. Is that right? 15 A. Uh-huh. It's in the middle. 16 Q. Okay. How long were you in Chicolton? 17 A. We stayed in the Chicolton. We raised the kids 18 there until about it was the year 2000 -- 2001. 19 Q. You were in Chicolton, British Columbia from `84 20 until 2001? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. In 2001 you came to Utah. Is that right? 23 A. Yeah. Our daughters got married to some Utah 24 boys. And so we decided that we would -- they wanted to 25 help kids. So we decided to go ahead and make the program DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 51 1 bigger. At that point we had another job to supplement 2 our -- 3 Q. We'll get into the job stuff in a minute. Right 4 now I'm just trying to get -- I'm asking a real narrow 5 question. 6 A. Yes, we moved to Utah. 7 Q. Where did you move to Utah in 2001? 8 A. It was either 2001 or 2. These aren't definite. 9 We moved to Mexico. 10 Q. So you went from Canada to Mexico? 11 A. Yes. And our intentions were to live part-time in 12 Mexico. They weren't to Utah because our kids -- our own 13 children were going to run the program for the kids. But 14 because of problems that we had there we came to Utah. 15 Q. So you went from Canada to Mexico to Utah? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. How long were you in Mexico approximately? 18 A. We were there from January until March. 19 Q. Of 2000 -- of what year? 20 A. `01. 21 Q. When you came to Utah did you go straight to the 22 Whitmore mansion or was there somewhere you went in between? 23 A. No. When we came to Utah we'd either go see 24 Mark's mom in -- 25 Q. I'm sorry, where did you move to? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 52 1 A. Well, we moved to Nephi. 2 Q. Okay. I thought you had gone to Alpine for a 3 brief period before you came to Nephi? 4 A. We purchased the home in Alpine as an investment 5 back in the `80s. So our children could go see that there's 6 other LDS people and they could see how other people live. 7 Q. Did you ever run the school out of the home in 8 Alpine? 9 A. No. We've stopped there though. We've stayed 10 there. 11 Q. Did you ever bring the kids to the home in Alpine? 12 And by kids I mean the students. 13 A. I said we stayed there. 14 Q. You stayed there. How long did you stay there? 15 A. Between two weeks and maybe a little longer 16 sometimes. 17 Q. That was in 2001? 18 A. No. That was like since we bought the house. It 19 was always a stopping off place on the way to Mexico. We 20 rented the Alpine house most of the time. 21 Q. Rented it to whom? 22 A. To renters. 23 Q. So you never operated the school out of it? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Then you were in Nephi then from 2001 up until DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 53 1 this past year when you started moving around. And we've 2 covered all that. Is that right? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Okay. See, that wasn't so hard. 5 A. It's hard when you have a bad memory. Wait until 6 you get our age. 7 Q. Yeah. We'll see. I'll ask you an easier question 8 now. Tell me about your kids. I understand you have kids. 9 Is the right? 10 A. My children? 11 Q. Yeah. If you could just give me the -- if you 12 could just name them for me and tell me when they were born 13 that would be helpful. 14 A. Do you want to see pictures? 15 Q. Not right now, no. Some other time you and I can 16 do that. 17 A. So you're not interested? They are beautiful 18 kids. 19 Q. Okay. Names and birth dates that's what I want. 20 I don't even need the month and the day. Just names and 21 when they were born. 22 A. Even my child who is deceased? 23 Q. No. Feel free to -- no, I'm not interested in 24 that. 25 A. Okay. Then the oldest would be Shayla, DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 54 1 S-H-A-Y-L-A. She is -- I think she was born in `78. 2 Q. Okay. 3 A. And she has four children. 4 Q. At the risk of making this more complicated as you 5 go through them if they're married if you'd give me their 6 spouse's name as well that would help. 7 A. Steven. 8 Q. Steven Welling is that his last name? 9 A. See, you know a lot. 10 Q. When were they married? 11 A. They had a double wedding, her and her sister, in 12 2000. Well, it was actually `99, the night before 2000. 13 Q. You said they have four kids? 14 A. Shayla and Steven have four children. 15 Q. Who is next oldest? 16 A. Well, okay. Trinity, T-R-I-N-I-T-Y. And she was 17 married to Trevor. 18 Q. Trevor what was his last name? 19 A. Bennett. 20 Q. And they got divorced. Is that right? 21 A. They did. It was hard going. 22 Q. I imagine. When were they divorced? 23 A. 2002 maybe. 24 Q. That works. 25 A. No, no. Like two years ago. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 55 1 Q. All right. And has she remarried? 2 A. Yes, she has. 3 Q. Who is her current husband? 4 A. Jeff Seely. 5 Q. Okay. So Trinity what year was she born? 6 Approximately if you don't remember. My dad can't remember 7 when I was born. 8 A. I know. It's so hard, but I'm getting better. 9 She was born in `81. 10 Q. Okay. Who is next? 11 A. Laeysa. 12 Q. How do you spell that? I've seen it spelled 13 different ways. So I'm never sure how it's actually 14 spelled. 15 A. L-A-E-Y-S-A. 16 Q. What year was she born? 17 A. She was born in `88. Well, she's six years 18 younger than Trin so maybe `82. 19 Q. So she is 18 right now. Is that right? 20 A. She's 19. 21 Q. Is she married? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who is your next after Laeysa? 24 A. It's Brek. 25 Q. Is that his full name? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 56 1 A. Uh-huh. B-R-E-K. I thought it sounded kind of 2 tough instead of B-R-E-C-K like the shampoo. 3 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 4 held.) 5 BY MR. TENNEY: 6 Q. When was Brek born? 7 A. He was born six years after Laeysa. 8 Q. So he was born in 1994. Is that right? 9 A. (Witness nods head.) 10 Q. Okay. And he's your last kid. Is that right? 11 A. Well, and then we have Darlene. And Darlene came 12 to live with us. And I don't remember the year. But she 13 was 12. And she was sealed to our family back in maybe `95. 14 Q. As far as the government goes have you officially 15 adopted her? 16 A. Not officially. She goes by Sudweeks. She went 17 on her mission as Sudweeks and she -- 18 Q. Has she legally changed her name to Sudweeks? 19 A. Well, no. 20 Q. What's her legal last name? Do you know? 21 A. Thomas. She's married. 22 Q. Oh, well, there you go. 23 A. That's why she didn't do it. 24 Q. That's make it easy. So you never officially 25 adopted her, but she's just sort of part of the family? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 57 1 A. Yes. We call her adopted. 2 Q. So she's been living with you since when? 3 A. Since Laeysa was like a year old. So 20 years 4 ago. 5 Q. Roughly 1986? 6 A. Uh-huh. Maybe. 7 Q. Give or take a year or so? 8 A. (Witness nods head.) 9 Q. So you've got Shayla, Trinity -- 10 A. Is this going to go in the paper too? 11 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 12 held.) 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. As far as your kids go you've got Shayla, Trinity, 15 Laeysa, Brek and then Darlene. Have they been -- let's 16 leave Darlene aside for a minute. Have Shayla, Trinity, 17 Laeysa and Brek been living with you continuously since they 18 were born? 19 A. They have. 20 Q. None of them went off to live with grandma for -- 21 A. Oh, Trinity did. She went to boarding school. 22 Q. Which boarding school? 23 A. Thatcher in Ojai, California. 24 Q. What years was she there? 25 A. You don't expect me to remember the exact dates, DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 58 1 right? 2 Q. How old was she when she went to boarding school? 3 A. She went for her high school. 4 Q. Sophomore, junior, senior year? 5 A. Junior, senior. 6 Q. Where did she go to sophomore high school? 7 A. We have a little school where we live. 8 Q. Is that -- 9 A. Tatla Lake. 10 Q. As your kids grew up then they grew up around the 11 students that you had in your programs. Is that right? I 12 mean, they lived with you and you lived with the students? 13 A. I'm sorry that this takes longer, but you have to 14 understand we do not have a normal life. The whole time my 15 kids grew up they grew up on a fishing resort that is in the 16 wilderness. 17 Q. In Chicolton, Canada? 18 A. It's about three hours away from town. And their 19 only friends they ever had their whole life were horses 20 except for the kids who lived with us who were like family 21 to them. 22 Q. Okay. I'm actually going somewhere very specific 23 with this and so let's just go there. In what way did they 24 help out with the school when they were growing up? Or did 25 they help out with the school at all? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 59 1 A. Okay. The reason our school was so successful 2 were the mentors that the kids had. My kids are really good 3 kids. 4 Q. Your kids meaning your biological children? 5 A. My children. You've probably heard this from your 6 clients I would imagine. But they were great role models. 7 And one of our mottos is your life is your teaching. You 8 must be the change you wish to see in the world. 9 My kids grew up with this. And they gave their 10 whole life to these students by sharing everything they had. 11 They'd sleep on the floor sometimes when the kids wanted a 12 bed. These kids that come to live with us are usually from 13 very wealthy families or they've had more than the average 14 person. And they learned from them a lot about gratitude 15 and humility and service. And so my kids were our program. 16 Q. Okay. Did you ever pay your biological children 17 for work that they did in helping out with the programs? 18 A. When my children were growing up we didn't even 19 charge the students -- most of them. There was maybe one or 20 two that could afford it. But, you know, that was about 20 21 years of -- Mother Teresa was my hero. And if she could do 22 what she did I thought we could do what we did. 23 Q. So you never paid your kids? 24 A. Not until they got married. 25 Q. Do you need a break right now? I'm happy to keep DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 60 1 going. 2 MR. FERGUSON: I think I need a break. 3 (Whereupon, a recess was taken and Mr. Parkinson 4 left the deposition.) 5 THE WITNESS: I remember another medication I 6 take. 7 BY MR. TENNEY: 8 Q. Please go ahead. 9 A. Estrogen. 10 Q. Thank you for adding that. 11 Let's talk now about how you and Mark got into the 12 teen help industry, okay. To start with I think it's 13 probably going to be a good idea just so we're all clear to 14 get some of the terms defined and clarified. I've heard the 15 phrase residential treatment center or RTC. I think we'll 16 be referring to it probably as RTC. Are you familiar with 17 that phrase? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. What does that phrase mean? 20 A. I don't know. It depends on where you are. In 21 Canada it doesn't mean anything. In Utah, the land of 22 programs, it means everything. And we helped define the 23 law. 24 Q. Is it a legal term? Is it an official term from 25 the State? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 61 1 MR. FERGUSON: If you know. 2 BY MR. TENNEY: 3 Q. If you know. I mean, obviously I don't want you 4 to say anything you don't know. 5 A. Yeah, I don't know. But in Utah it definitely 6 means more here than any other state. 7 Q. What's your understanding of what it means here -- 8 that that phrase RTC? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. You don't know? 11 A. I could probably throw you some answers that were 12 half right. But I seriously don't -- I'm not an expert on 13 that stuff. 14 Q. Well, what is your understanding -- I am curious 15 what your understanding of that phrase is. What do you 16 understand it to mean? 17 A. I understand it's different than a boarding 18 school. 19 Q. How is it different than a boarding school? 20 A. A boarding school when we moved here you could 21 call the shots. Residential treatment center the State 22 lives at your house and tells you exactly what to do. 23 Q. Other than the amount of State supervision do you 24 understand there to be any other differences between what an 25 RTC can do versus what a boarding school can do? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 62 1 A. Not enough to really say anything. 2 Q. Let's compare those two terms just a little bit 3 more if we could. Between an RTC on the one hand and a 4 boarding school on the other hand is there a difference in 5 the types of services that they are allowed to provide 6 according to your understanding? 7 A. Even at this point I don't know. Because it went 8 back and forth so much that the State of Utah didn't have a 9 definition until we presented them our problem. 10 Q. When did you present the problem to them? 11 A. Within the last two years. 12 Q. So your understanding is that prior to 2004 there 13 was no official definition of -- 14 A. Actually, prior to The Whitmore Academy. They 15 made new law. 16 Q. Okay. Before we get to Whitmore specifically you 17 and Mark got married in 1974. At what point did the two of 18 you start running teen help businesses? When did you start 19 doing this? 20 A. Teen help businesses? 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. We have always had teenagers living with us. 23 Q. When did you first start getting paid for it? 24 A. We started getting paid for the same thing we did 25 for nothing in 2000 or maybe it was `99. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 63 1 Q. So you were up in Canada at that point, right? 2 A. Uh-huh. But it wasn't -- we didn't get paid by 3 everybody. Just some people. We tried to create 4 scholarships that would help families. 5 Q. Let me move back a step just briefly. You were 6 doing this -- you were helping kids out before you were 7 getting paid for it. Did I understand that right? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. When was the first time you remember having a 10 teenager that was not your own biological child living with 11 you for purposes of helping them out? When did this first 12 start? 13 A. 1974. 14 Q. And then did you have kids with you continuously 15 from 1974 on? 16 A. Pretty much. 17 Q. Who was the first kid? How did you come into 18 contact with a kid who needed help? 19 A. A grandma that had a granddaughter down the 20 street. And she kept running away and she had problems with 21 her. And so I said that she could stay with us. 22 And ever since my kids were little I was going to 23 be the best mom in the world. And I did a lot of studying 24 with Richard Eyers. 25 Q. Did you study with him personally? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 64 1 A. Richard and Linda Eyers. No. We personally know 2 them. But at that point, no. I just started reading some 3 of the books. 4 Q. How do you know the Eyers? 5 A. They are friends of ours just because they know 6 that I do a lot of the -- I run my place a lot from their 7 information. 8 Q. Have you had any training from them? 9 A. No. Just education week. So I guess I've had a 10 little bit. 11 Q. Thank you. So you've had kids living with you on 12 and off since 1974. And in roughly 1999, was it you said, 13 was the first time you actually got paid for it. Tell me 14 how you made that switch, why you made that switch to 15 getting paid for it? 16 A. Because that's when our children were married. 17 And our son-in-law's were willing to quit their jobs so we 18 could help more kids. Because we knew we were successful 19 with what we did. 20 Q. In 1999 or 2000, whenever this period started, 21 according to my notes the only son-in-law you had was Steven 22 Welling. You said that they got -- Steven and Shayla got 23 married in 2000. Is that right? 24 A. I also said they had a double wedding. 25 Q. What does that mean, double wedding? Maybe I DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 65 1 misunderstood that. 2 A. Her and her sister got married on the same day. 3 Q. Her and Trinity? 4 A. Uh-huh. 5 Q. So I'm just trying too clear up dates. So you 6 started taking money for this after Shayla and Trinity had 7 gotten married. Is that right? 8 A. No. When they decided to get married. 9 Q. Okay. So then part of the reason that you decided 10 to shift this into being a business is that you had the help 11 of the son-in-law's. Is that right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Okay. Help me understand that. What prompted the 14 shift to doing this as a business? 15 A. Can I tell them? Okay. 16 MR. FERGUSON: If you can. Answer the question if 17 you can. 18 THE WITNESS: I can tell you, but it's not a yes, 19 no answer. 20 BY MR. TENNEY: 21 Q. Sure. It wasn't a yes, no question. 22 A. All right. In 1995 Mark and I crashed our -- 23 Q. If I understand right you crashed it in the lake 24 up in Canada? 25 A. Yes. How do you know this? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 66 1 MS. SHAPIRO: He gets to ask the questions. 2 MR. TENNEY: I get to ask the questions. 3 THE WITNESS: That's why I hesitated telling you. 4 I don't want this to be made fun of again. The truth of the 5 whole thing and the basis of the whole thing goes straight 6 back to this. And this is what will be in my book. 7 But when we crashed the airplane it was a very 8 traumatic experience. And I won't go into the details of 9 the plane crash. But it's a miracle that we're alive. 10 And as the helicopter was flying me back into the 11 lodge it hovered over the lodge place where we have a lot of 12 planes that fly into the lodge. And there was kids running 13 around. And I thought why did we live. Because I had 14 actually been out of air for around five minutes. I had 15 lost consciousness. And I don't know if you've been in an 16 experience like that but it makes you think. 17 And as we were landing one of the boys who was our 18 hardest child ran in front of the helicopter. And it hit me 19 harder than anything has ever hit me. I'm on this earth I 20 believe to share my gifts. Not my education, no academic 21 education. But to share the gifts that I've received from 22 being a child of 13, a troubled teen if you want to call it 23 that. We never smoked pot or anything. But, you know, a 24 rebellious child. And that's the day we decided that we 25 were going to make a business of what we do. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 67 1 BY MR. TENNEY: 2 Q. So then operationally what changed? Other than 3 accepting money what changed about what you were doing? 4 A. Nothing. Of course things changed because of the 5 location. Location to us is everything. But part of what 6 we've done with our children -- and we've been successful 7 with our children -- is we're in Canada. And they get to 8 get out of the box and go to a whole different country -- a 9 third world country. Which helps them become grateful, 10 teaches them gratitude, teaches them when they're away from 11 their parents about forgiveness. 12 And with this feelings buried alive course that I 13 have, I have the skills and the tools to help them reach 14 these things that have blocked their positive energy. And 15 we felt that our program was a success. And after 20 years 16 we knew it was. 17 Q. So how many kids -- immediately prior to the plane 18 crash how many kids did you have living with you at that 19 time other than your own biological kids? 20 A. That's a really broad question too. 21 Q. Actually, I think it's pretty narrow. 22 A. Well, it's not. Let me tell you why. 23 Q. I'm just asking for a number. 24 A. I can't give you a number. 25 Q. Okay. Why can't you give me a number? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 68 1 A. Because the kids that we had living with us 2 were -- parents would send their kids to us. Counselors had 3 found out about us from different people. They'd send their 4 kids up. 5 We have a guest ranch. And so when people send 6 their kids to the guest ranch depending on the time that 7 they would stay, you know, it was part of our schedule. 8 Q. Okay. So just give me number if you can. 9 A. I couldn't give you a number, but I could give you 10 an idea. 11 Q. Okay. Give me an idea. 12 A. From 1974 until the plane crash how many kids have 13 we worked with? 14 Q. On average how many do you have at any given time? 15 I don't want to know a total aggregate number. I just want 16 to know if I were to show up at your door in -- 17 A. From the plane crash until that time we've worked 18 with -- 19 Q. From the plane crash until what time? Until 2000? 20 A. From 1974 to 2000 we have worked with I would say 21 close to 2,000 kids. 22 Q. So then what impact -- at some point obviously you 23 decided to accept more kids than you had before. Is that 24 right? 25 A. No. We didn't really set a number on the amount DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 69 1 of kids that we were going to take. We had a family 2 meeting. And at that family meeting we wanted a commitment. 3 Because if we were going to do this, this meant we needed to 4 focus on the academical part. Which would mean we could go 5 back to Utah and start something there if we wanted. 6 This was all in the process. You know, like when 7 you decided to go to law school. It was something we were 8 hashing out. And we went through because we didn't want to 9 be an expensive -- our main goal and our mission statement 10 said it all. It wasn't about money. It was about helping 11 the kids that wanted to be helped. 12 Q. When you said that this was going to involve you 13 focusing more on the academical part what did that mean? 14 A. In Utah? 15 Q. No. I'm just wondering what you meant when you 16 just said that. 17 A. For me personally -- this is just a personal 18 statement. But the reason I bought that rental house in 19 Alpine was because the school my kids were going to was a 20 very small country rural school. Yet my kids are very 21 talented. 22 Thatcher School I don't if you've heard of it, but 23 it's pretty prestigious. It's the sixth best school in the 24 nation when it comes to private boarding schools. And you 25 have to go through a long process to be accepted. And DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 70 1 Trinity was accepted because of her ranch values and her 2 academics and she's got special gifts. But that's the 3 process we wanted to go through with our kids. 4 Q. I need you to help me. I'm going to try to be 5 real specific as to this question. From the moment you 6 decided to do this as a business what did you decide that 7 you were going to do differently from that point forward 8 that you had not been doing before? Or was there anything 9 at all that you were going to do differently other than 10 accepting money? That's what I'm trying to understand. 11 A. At that point? 12 Q. Yeah. You and Mark and the family sit down and 13 you say we're going to do this as a business. What changes? 14 What are you doing differently at that point? 15 A. Nothing. Nothing was different. 16 Q. Okay. So I'm assuming that you didn't charge 17 parents of the kids who were already living with you, right? 18 A. No. 19 Q. But at that point you decided you were going to 20 start charging kids who then came to live with you. Is that 21 right? 22 A. Yeah, we wanted to cover our costs. We were 23 paying for all of this stuff out of our own pocket. 24 Q. Prior to 2000 had any of the parents given you any 25 money to help? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 71 1 A. Yeah. The fishing guests that would come they 2 paid -- 3 Q. I'm not talking about fishing guests. The parents 4 of the kids who were staying with you. 5 A. Well, we had a family aspect to the dude ranch. 6 And they would come as a family and we would charge per day 7 per child. 8 Q. Did you have kids living with you who were not 9 there with their parents as part of the dude ranch 10 experience? 11 A. Yeah, we did. 12 Q. Okay. Did those parents ever pay you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You never received any money prior to 2000 from 15 parents who had sent their kids to live with you? 16 A. I think one time Tamara's mother sent us $400. 17 Odds and ends like that. They'd usually send us gifts or 18 they would be really nice to us. Robert Redford -- what's 19 his name here? Gwen -- I can't remember his name. They 20 sent us gifts in the mail. 21 Q. Okay. So from 2000 to 2001 you're still in 22 Canada. Is that right? You didn't move to Mexico until 23 2001. Is that right? 24 A. The kids got married on New Year's Eve in `99. 25 No, it would have been -- we were in Mexico. Wait. I don't DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 72 1 know. I don't know. 2 Q. Let me ask it this way. Maybe this will help out. 3 Did you ever operate the teen help business out of Canada? 4 Or did you only start operating it as a business once you 5 got to Mexico? 6 A. No, we operated it in Canada. 7 Q. How long did you operate it out of Canada? 8 A. As a business? 9 Q. Yeah. 10 A. A year. 11 Q. And that was from -- give me the approximate dates 12 if you could down to the month. If you can give me the 13 month that would help. 14 A. Are you kidding? 15 Q. Nope. 16 A. I can't. 17 Q. 2000 to 2001. Is that right? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Give me the approximate years then. 20 A. In `99. 21 Q. Okay. When did you start advertising for 22 business? 23 MR. FERGUSON: Assumes facts not in evidence. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. Did you ever start advertising for your business? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 73 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. Let me do the yes and no and then I'll ask you the 3 broader question. Did you ever at any point start 4 advertising for your business? 5 A. We did. 6 Q. Okay. Do you remember when that was? 7 A. Whenever we started charging the parents. Because 8 we used that money for advertising. 9 Q. Give me your best guess as to the date when you 10 started advertising. 11 A. I told you I can't. I don't know. 12 Q. You can't narrow it down to a two year time 13 period? 14 Let me ask it this way then. Did you ever 15 advertise while you were in Canada? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. Do you know if you started advertising when you 18 were in Mexico or if you were advertising while you were in 19 Mexico? 20 A. No, we never advertised while we were in Mexico. 21 We couldn't do things like that there. They didn't even 22 have Internet back then. 23 Q. Did you advertise for the program when you got to 24 Utah? 25 A. Yeah, we did. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 74 1 Q. When you first started advertising what's your 2 memory of how you first did that? Even if you can't 3 remember the dates do you remember what it was you first did 4 to advertise your program? 5 A. Yeah. We tried to advertise through Sunset 6 magazine by a recommendation from someone who was in that 7 business. And we did that for a couple months, but it's 8 really expensive. 9 Q. How much did you pay? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Do you have a ballpark figure? 12 A. Maybe $3,000 a month for a little tiny ad. And we 13 weren't pleased with the kind of people that it drew. 14 Q. How so? What do you mean by that? 15 A. They're more troubled teens. 16 Q. What do you mean they were more troubled teens? 17 A. They were harder than the kids that -- not harder. 18 They were more -- they had more issues than the kids that 19 we're dealing with. 20 Q. Issues in terms of what? 21 A. Drugs, sex, alcohol, that kind of thing, jail. We 22 didn't want adjudicated kids. 23 Q. By adjudicated kids what do you mean? 24 A. When they are charged with something and the 25 judge -- you don't know what that means? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 75 1 Q. No, I'm asking what it means to you. 2 A. What I think it means is when a judge finds them 3 or charges them with -- finds them guilty. And he wants 4 them to serve time either at juvy or he'll put them in a 5 treatment program. 6 Q. Now, that you've remembered that you put that ad 7 in Sunset does that help you remember at all when that was? 8 A. No. Absolutely no idea. 9 Q. Other than the Sunset magazine ads did you ever 10 put together a mailer for your program? A brochure or 11 mailing or anything like that? 12 A. A mailer? 13 Q. Yeah. Let's just use a brochure. Did you ever 14 put together a brochure to send out? 15 A. You mean send it to everybody that -- 16 Q. Did you ever put one together? 17 A. Yeah, we put one together. 18 Q. Do you remember when that was you put that 19 together? 20 A. Well, we had one for the fishing lodge. 21 Q. That was back in Canada? 22 A. Uh-huh. And then the one here, yeah. 23 Q. As far as the fishing lodge one goes did that 24 brochure talk about therapy or did it talk about just the 25 fishing lodge as a vacation site? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 76 1 A. It talked about both. 2 Q. Was that just available for people to come pick up 3 or did you actually send it out by mail to prospective 4 clients while you were in Canada? 5 A. Well, Mark takes care of all the mail. But I'm 6 sure that if they were interested he would send it. I mean, 7 why else would you make a brochure? 8 Q. Is it your understanding then that you did send 9 those out? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Were you only sending them out to Canadians or 12 were you sending them across the border to America at that 13 time or do you remember? 14 A. I don't remember. But we could have sent it to 15 both places. 16 Q. Did you put together a different brochure when you 17 came to Utah? 18 A. Yeah, we did. 19 Q. Do you remember who actually made the brochure? 20 Who designed it? 21 A. Let's see, someplace over in Price. 22 Q. And was the -- was your use of it the same as the 23 one in Canada? You sent it out to people who were 24 interested in the program? Is that what you did with it? 25 A. Yeah. Actually, we sent it to them and we sent it DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 77 1 to the educational consultants that were interested in us. 2 Q. Who were the educational consultants? What do you 3 mean by that? 4 A. I don't remember who they were. Just people -- 5 they're educational consultants. They look for a good 6 boarding school for people. 7 Q. Okay. They were referral people? Is that what 8 you're talking about? 9 A. Yeah, you could call them that. 10 Q. I don't know how to ask this question without it 11 being too vague. Did you keep a list of which states you 12 sent the Utah based brochure to? Do you have a record 13 anywhere of who all you sent these to? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever keep one? 16 A. Probably not. 17 Q. Okay. Are they mostly to Utahans or were they 18 mostly to people outside of Utah? 19 MR. FERGUSON: If you know. 20 THE WITNESS: I absolutely have no idea. 21 BY MR. TENNEY: 22 Q. Okay. All right. When did you put together an 23 Internet web site? 24 A. All I remember about that is we met with a kid at 25 Brigham Young University who did that for a living. And he DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 78 1 came over and looked at what we do and took some of our 2 pictures. And he's the one that put it together. 3 Q. Do you remember his name? 4 A. I don't. 5 Q. Do you remember when this was? 6 A. It was after we decided to charge. 7 Q. Do you remember how much you paid him? 8 A. A lot. 9 Q. What's a lot? 10 A. But I have no idea. It was a lot, you know. 11 Because the kids could basically do the same thing. 12 Q. Was it initially just an advertisement Internet 13 web site or did it have some other purpose to it? What did 14 this Internet web site do initially? 15 A. It was never for advertisement. 16 Q. Okay. Did it ever have a section on there with 17 contact information for the school? 18 A. It had contact information for the parents of the 19 kids that were in our school. 20 Q. What do you mean? 21 A. Our web site was totally focused to communicating 22 with the parents. Because on the web site we had private -- 23 you know, private places that we didn't want everyone to go 24 through. 25 Q. Did you have a password protection screen? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 79 1 A. Yes, we did. 2 Q. Was that on there initially? 3 A. Yes, it was. 4 Q. Did you have any portions of the web site that 5 were not password protected? 6 A. Yes, we did. 7 Q. What portions were those? 8 A. When you first clicked in. Anything that wouldn't 9 hurt the kids to our knowledge. 10 Q. Give me some specifics. What could the average 11 Internet server -- 12 A. Pictures of Canada and pictures of Mexico and 13 pictures of Utah. 14 Q. Was there a description on this web site of what 15 services you offered? 16 A. Probably. 17 Q. Was there a listing of who the faculty and staff 18 at the program were? 19 A. Yeah, for the parents. 20 Q. Did it have -- was there a place on there where it 21 gave a phone number where you could be reached? 22 A. Yeah. We put our numbers and our e-mail addresses 23 on there for the parents. 24 Q. For the parents. And did you ever keep records of 25 who visited the web site? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 80 1 A. Never. 2 Q. Is that information available? Do you know if 3 that information is available? 4 A. How do you get it? 5 Q. I'm just asking if you know. I mean, do you know 6 if it's available? 7 A. Well, I hope it's not. I mean, I hope that other 8 people don't go. 9 Q. Right. Would it be available to you? If you 10 wanted to today to go find out who had visited your web site 11 do you know if you have the ability to do that? 12 A. No, I don't know that. 13 Q. Okay. Give me all the names -- since you decided 14 to run this as a business give me all the names that you've 15 gone by? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Of the program? 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Of the program, yeah. What did you call yourself 19 in the beginning? 20 A. Who Am I Discovery. 21 Q. So that was in 2000? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Okay. How long did you operate under that name? 24 A. Well, that is the business. 25 Q. Is that the official business name? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 81 1 A. Well, everything was under it. Who Am I Discovery 2 was about Baha Discovery, The Whitmore Academy. 3 Q. Okay. Did you ever operate under a different 4 name? 5 A. No. 6 Q. When did you start going by the name The Whitmore 7 Academy? I'm not talking about the official business. I'm 8 just talking about when people say what's the name of your 9 business what do you tell them? 10 A. It depends on if you're talking to me or Mark. 11 Q. What did you tell them? 12 A. I always go by Who Am I Discovery. 13 Q. Even after the present day that's the name of your 14 business? 15 A. That's the name of my life. 16 Q. Who Am I Discovery is the general overarching name 17 since 2000 to the present day. Is that right? 18 What did it say on the brochure up in Canada? 19 When you had the brochure in Canada what did it refer to the 20 program as? 21 A. Chilanko Lodge and Resort. It was a fishing 22 resort. 23 Q. When you were down in Mexico what name were you 24 going by? 25 A. We didn't go by a name down there. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 82 1 Q. The students that you had with you in Mexico were 2 they all students that you'd had already in Canada? 3 A. Oh, yeah. 4 Q. Did you add any students while you were in Mexico? 5 A. No. 6 Q. So they were all transplants from the Canada base? 7 A. Yeah. We traveled together to Mexico. 8 Q. When you were in Canada what official licenses did 9 you have to operate the business? 10 A. We didn't need to have a license with the lodge. 11 Q. Why? 12 A. Because -- 13 MR. FERGUSON: Well, that question calls for a 14 legal conclusion. 15 BY MR. TENNEY: 16 Q. Give me your best understanding. Why didn't you 17 need a business license to run the lodge? 18 A. Well, I said we had a license for the lodge, but 19 we didn't have a license to -- we didn't need one to do the 20 kids. 21 Q. Did somebody tell you that you didn't need one to 22 work with kids? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. Proper authorities. I don't know. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 83 1 Q. Did you contact anybody to ask them that question? 2 A. Of course. 3 Q. Who did you contact? 4 A. I don't know. Government offices. 5 Q. What title? I mean, was it somebody from the 6 local -- 7 MS. SHAPIRO: Province. 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. The local province or was it somebody from the 10 federal government there? I mean, who did you contact? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. Did you do that or did Mark do that? 13 A. We did it together. 14 Q. When you went to Mexico what government licenses 15 did you have? 16 A. We didn't have to have a license in Mexico to do 17 what we did. 18 Q. Why didn't you have to have a license? 19 MR. FERGUSON: Same objection. 20 BY MR. TENNEY: 21 Q. What's your understanding? Why didn't you have to 22 have a license? 23 A. I don't even have an understanding. I have a pure 24 knowledge of this one. Because we have a lawyer who had to 25 take care of us for no reason. They believed that we had to DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 84 1 have a license. And through a lot of money to lawyers and a 2 lot of -- 3 Q. Who is they? 4 A. -- investigation -- 5 Q. Sorry. When you say they believed you had to have 6 a license who is they? 7 A. Some people who wanted our property. 8 Q. Sorry, keep going. So these people who wanted 9 your property believed you had to have a license and? 10 A. I don't even think they believed it. They paid 11 immigration to harass us. And we being good citizens wanted 12 to do the right thing. So when they told us to leave we 13 did. 14 And we left and found a lawyer who told us it was 15 illegal for them to tell us that we needed a license because 16 we didn't need a license. We had tourist permits and that's 17 all we needed. 18 Q. Who told you that you had to leave? Who was that 19 that told you you had to leave? 20 A. Immigration. 21 Q. Mexican immigration? 22 A. They were paid off. They've been fired since. 23 They were paid off by the man who wanted our property. 24 Q. How do you know that they were paid off? 25 A. Because it was an investigation in Mexico. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 85 1 Q. Who did the investigating? 2 A. The proper authorities. 3 Q. Are we talking about Mexican police? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. So Mexican police told you -- subsequently told 6 you that immigration -- 7 A. No, our lawyer told us. 8 Q. Your lawyer told you that the people involved from 9 Mexican immigration had been paid off? 10 A. Uh-huh. After we paid them a lot of money. 11 Q. Do you know if those people were -- those 12 immigration officials do you know if they were ever 13 convicted in a Mexican court for that? Do you know? 14 A. Yes, they were. 15 Q. Do you know if they ever served jail time? 16 A. I have no idea. I just know they don't work there 17 anymore. 18 Q. Do you know their names? 19 A. No, I have no idea. 20 Q. Do you have that written down anywhere? 21 A. Their names? 22 Q. Yeah. 23 A. I try not to remember those kind of things. It 24 was a very horrible experience. 25 Q. I imagine. I don't want to know anything he told DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 86 1 you, but what was the name of your lawyer that handled all 2 this? 3 A. Gabriel Sanchez. He works at Kirton & McConkie. 4 He's a Mexican. 5 Q. Is he currently at Kirton & McConkie? 6 A. Yes, he is. 7 Q. Was he at Kirton & McConkie during this time 8 period? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Where was he working at that time? 11 A. Oh, I mean, I don't know. But we didn't know 12 until we got back to the states. Just call him. 13 Q. So you didn't have a lawyer when you were in 14 Mexico? 15 A. Yeah, we did. 16 Q. You did. Who was your -- 17 A. Angelica. 18 Q. What's Angelica's last name? 19 A. I couldn't tell you. 20 Q. Was she Mexican? 21 A. Gonzalez maybe. 22 Q. Was she Mexican? 23 A. Definitely Mexican. She couldn't speak English. 24 That was part of our problem. 25 Q. Do you speak Spanish? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 87 1 A. Pocotio. 2 Q. Does Mark speak Spanish? Do you know? 3 A. Pocotio. My son speaks the best. We get better 4 all the time. 5 Q. That's good. When you came to Utah what licenses 6 did you get to operate a business in Utah? 7 A. When we came to Utah we had full intentions -- in 8 fact, our mission statement says for every employee that we 9 hired it was important for them to adopt this mission 10 statement. That we would go by the letter of the law. 11 Q. Okay. My question is real specific. Otherwise 12 we're going to be here all night. What licenses did you get 13 when you came to Utah? 14 A. When we came to Utah we weren't required to have 15 any license to run the boarding school. 16 Q. Who told you that? 17 A. Proper authorities. 18 Q. Who were those proper authorities? 19 A. I can't remember. 20 Q. What agency were they with? 21 A. Government. 22 Q. State government? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. So you were told by a State government official 25 that you did not need a license to run a boarding school? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 88 1 A. Absolutely. 2 Q. What about to offer therapy? What licenses did 3 you have to offer therapy? 4 A. We didn't offer therapy. 5 Q. In 2001 you didn't offer any therapy? 6 A. No. 7 Q. So what were you offering these kids? 8 A. If the parents wanted -- like Justin's mom if she 9 wanted -- 10 Q. Which Justin? 11 A. Busa. If she wanted therapy, then she -- and in 12 her case she wanted a psychiatrist. And so in Alpine when 13 we came through Alpine he met with the psychiatrist there. 14 And she paid for it. It was just out of her pocket. 15 Because her tuition was like $19,000, something like that. 16 Q. So it's your testimony then that as of at least 17 2001 you were not offering therapy as part of your business. 18 Is that correct? 19 A. Not in the term -- we did have therapists, but 20 most of them had four legs. 21 Q. The horses? 22 A. They're the best therapists. 23 Q. Okay. Did you offer human therapists as part of 24 your program in 2001 when you came to Utah? 25 A. I don't remember. If it was necessary we could DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 89 1 have. I don't remember who we had on -- 2 Q. How would you have done so if it was necessary? 3 A. How would we have done so? Hire a therapist. 4 Q. Did you ever hire a therapist? 5 A. We did. 6 Q. Who? 7 A. The first therapist that we hired here I believe 8 was Tim -- Todd Powers. 9 Q. When did you hire Todd? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Can you give me an estimate? 12 A. I can't. 13 Q. Can you narrow it down to a year? 14 A. I wish. I really wish. I'm not doing this to 15 give you a bad time. 16 Q. No, I don't think you are. I'm just trying to 17 help you out. 18 A. It was, you know, not too long after -- when we 19 got here things were fine. Didn't have any problems until 20 Kelly Husbands came by. 21 Q. When was that that Kelly Husbands came by? 22 A. About six months later his daughter was hanging 23 out with us every night. 24 Q. Are we talking about 2001 still or are we into 25 2002? Or when did Kelly Husbands -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 90 1 A. Whenever we got here. I don't know when. If I 2 knew I would tell you. 3 Q. Shortly after you got to Utah Kelly Husbands came 4 by? 5 A. Not shortly, but not too long afterwards. 6 Q. Approximately six months? 7 A. Yeah. That's what I said. 8 Q. At any point did you make therapy a stated part of 9 your business at any point? 10 A. Yes, we did. 11 Q. When? 12 A. Because we didn't understand the definition of 13 therapy. And in order to make sure that we could use the 14 word therapy we talked to Cindy Lund. I remember her name. 15 And she said, no, you cannot use the word therapy. 16 And we had just made up these brochures, which was 17 so depressing. So we had to go through all the brochures 18 and take therapy out of it. 19 Q. When was this? 20 A. I have no idea. But it was like right after the 21 brochures were made. 22 Q. How long after you came to Utah was this 23 approximately? 24 A. Within a year. 25 Q. So at that point you take the word therapy out of DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 91 1 the brochures? Then what do you do? 2 A. Cry. Because the brochures cost so much. 3 Q. I imagine they're not cheap. Do you remember how 4 much you paid for them? 5 A. Around $10,000. 6 Q. So then what did you do as far as your business 7 goes? 8 A. Maybe $20,000. So then we kept the brochure 9 because it had a lot of good information. And we talked to 10 another lawyer who we asked how we can use these brochures 11 since it's got therapy in there so we don't get in trouble 12 for anything. He said you need to write a disclaimer and 13 put it in the brochure. 14 Q. Did you do that? 15 A. We did. 16 Q. What did the disclaimer say? 17 A. Something like everything is true except for we do 18 not offer therapy. 19 Q. So what was your business offering at that point? 20 If you weren't offering therapy what were you offering? 21 A. Therapy with four legs. 22 Q. I mean, your business was solely centered on the 23 equine therapy? 24 A. No. Do you know anything about what we do? 25 Q. I'm asking the questions. I'm having you explain DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 92 1 it to me. So what was your business at that point? 2 A. We offered emotional growth education. 3 Q. How is that different from therapy? 4 MR. FERGUSON: I think the question calls for an 5 expert opinion. 6 BY MR. TENNEY: 7 Q. You can go ahead and answer that. How is that 8 different from therapy? 9 A. It's completely different from therapy. Kids can 10 learn at their own rate. And you can customize the 11 education to go with the level -- a lot of kids who are 12 troubled teens are kids who have learning disabilities. And 13 those learning disabilities could be dyslexia. They could 14 be just emotional issues that block their -- 15 Q. So your business then was helping kids confront 16 whatever emotional issue they had. Is that right? 17 MR. FERGUSON: I think that misstates the 18 testimony. Answer if you can. 19 THE WITNESS: No, we never claimed to ever be the 20 cure-all. 21 BY MR. TENNEY: 22 Q. No, I'm not saying your business was to cure them. 23 Because we know that that -- you know, promising results was 24 probably not possible. But I mean what were you telling 25 your clients that you were going to do for them? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 93 1 A. Based on our experience, and the lifestyle that we 2 were able to live, and mother nature, and the natural 3 classrooms, and learning at your own rate we saw how it 4 helps the kids. 5 Q. So if a parent comes to you and says, I need your 6 help and what do you offer, what was your response to a 7 parent? What were you offering these parents? 8 MS. SHAPIRO: What time period are you talking 9 about? 10 BY MR. TENNEY: 11 Q. When you first got to Utah, 2001? 12 A. Okay. 2001 most of the kids we got in that period 13 of time were referred to us by other parents. 14 Q. Okay. What were you doing for these kids? That's 15 what I'm trying to understand. 16 A. Other parents would tell other parents that they 17 had tried five or six programs and nothing worked. And they 18 had sent their child to us. And they didn't know what it 19 was, but the combination of Mark and I and our facilities 20 and our schedules and probably mostly the extensive 21 recreational opportunities. Parents were willing to give it 22 a gamble. 23 Q. What were these parents gambling on? 24 A. Their child. Their most prized possession. 25 Q. Was the idea that you were going to help these DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 94 1 kids modify their behavior? Is that what you were trying to 2 do? 3 A. No. It was never our idea to change or modify 4 anybody. That's against our religion. We don't believe in 5 that. 6 Q. Was the idea that you were going to help these 7 kids live more stable and productive lives? Is that the 8 idea? 9 A. I can say it one sentence. 10 Q. Okay. Please. 11 A. We taught them correct principles. We gave them 12 skills and tools to deal with real life issues. And then we 13 gave them the free agency, freedom through discipline, to 14 govern their own lives. 15 Q. So you helped them become more emotionally stable? 16 Is that what you're trying to do? 17 A. Well, from experience most of the kids were 18 emotionally stable. 19 Q. So you were -- what you did when a kid came under 20 your care was you helped him or her develop coping 21 mechanisms to deal with life. Is that fair? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You didn't offer them -- you didn't try to help 24 them cope with life better? 25 A. That's a way of putting it if you want to. But DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 95 1 that's not the way I would ever put it. 2 Q. All right. I'm just trying to understand. And 3 perhaps I've not heard you clearly. But I'm trying to get 4 you to tell me what it was that you were offering these 5 parents. What service were you offering these parents for 6 their money? 7 A. You just said helping them cope with life. I just 8 said we taught them correct principles and let them govern 9 themselves. 10 Q. What principles did you teach these kids? 11 A. Principle number one, our life is our teaching. 12 Q. What does that mean? 13 A. That means Mark and I better be living some pretty 14 high values and morals ourselves. If we expect something 15 from the kids -- if we're not living it how in the world are 16 we ever going to expect them with an open door operation 17 where they could leave any time they wanted. These kids 18 kicked and screamed to come to our place. And they get 19 there and within two weeks they don't want to leave -- most 20 of them. 21 Q. What's principle number two? 22 A. Principle number two is freedom through 23 discipline. They do what's got to be done and the rewards 24 are endless. And they're fantastic. 25 Q. How many principles are there? I think we've said DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 96 1 number one and number two. 2 A. There's tons. We teach them the ten values of -- 3 no, it's seven principles of highly effective people. 4 Q. So if you weren't offering these kids therapy, 5 then why did you put in your brochure that you were offering 6 therapy? 7 MR. FERGUSON: Assumes facts not in evidence. 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. Well, I mean, you told me before that you had a 10 brochure printed up that cost you $10,000 or $20,000 -- 11 A. It's real easy to answer that. When we put the 12 brochure together we got professional help who told us this 13 is how you would word it. We were new to Utah. We didn't 14 realize Utah was a different state. You could probably do 15 that in other states. I don't know. We found out very 16 quickly that you couldn't. 17 Q. Did you review the content of the brochure before 18 it was printed? 19 A. Oh, yeah. 20 Q. And so when you saw the word therapy all over the 21 brochure -- 22 A. That's when we called the Cindy Lund. And she 23 came over and she went through our things. And she said, 24 no, can't do this. So we said okay. 25 Q. At any point did you start adding therapy to your DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 97 1 program? 2 A. Yes, we did. 3 Q. When? 4 A. I can't tell you the dates. 5 Q. Give me your best guess. 6 A. I can't give a guess. 7 Q. You can't tell me at all when you started offering 8 therapy? 9 A. No. Dates are nothing. Dates and time it's not 10 there, sorry. I'm not -- 11 Q. Memory is not your strong suit? 12 A. Well, memory of -- 13 MR. FERGUSON: Memory of dates and times. 14 THE WITNESS: -- dates and times just don't exist 15 in my life. 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. When you hired Todd Powers was that the beginning 18 of when you added therapy to your program? 19 A. No. Because we had psychiatrists that the kids -- 20 we'd take the kids -- like Darlene, my daughter, we'd fly 21 her to Williams Lake to meet with her shrink. 22 Q. Other than Darlene did you have psychiatrists that 23 the kids that were under your care went and saw? 24 A. Darlene is just an example. Yes, other kids would 25 go in if the parents requested it. It wasn't something DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 98 1 that -- 2 Q. Who paid for these psychiatrists? 3 A. The parents. 4 Q. Did they pay you to pay the psychiatrists -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. -- or did the parents pay them directly? 7 A. They paid them directly. 8 Q. When did you first have a psychiatrist -- 9 A. To my knowledge. 10 Q. Okay. When did you first have a psychiatrist or 11 somebody that was licensed to -- 12 A. That we were paying? 13 Q. That you were paying. When did that first happen? 14 A. I think it was Todd. 15 Q. Do you remember at all when he was hired? 16 A. I told you I don't. 17 Q. Okay. Let me go ahead and mark an exhibit. 18 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 25 was marked 19 for identification.) 20 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 21 held.) 22 BY MR. TENNEY: 23 Q. Ms. Sudweeks, I'm handing you what's been marked 24 Deposition Exhibit No. 25. I'll represent to you that this 25 is a list of employees that has been provided to us by your DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 99 1 counsel in response to a discovery request of ours. 2 A. By who? By our counsel? 3 Q. By your attorneys, yeah. Does this list look 4 familiar to you? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. What is this list? 7 A. People that worked at The Whitmore Academy. 8 Q. Did you put this list together? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Who put this together? 11 A. Probably Mark. 12 Q. You don't know? 13 A. Uh-uh. 14 Q. I don't see Todd Powers on this list. Do you? 15 A. Mark has as bad of a memory as I do. 16 Q. It's not just about a date now. We're talking 17 about an employee. Todd Powers is not on this list. Do you 18 know why he's not on this list? 19 A. I'm sure it's because he either forgot or -- you 20 could ask him right now. 21 Q. We'll ask him on Thursday and we'll make a point 22 of it. Other than Todd Powers when was the first time that 23 you hired a therapist? 24 A. Well, while we had Todd we only had maybe just a 25 few kids. So the load wasn't too much for him. So we hired DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 100 1 Tim Lowe as another therapist. 2 Q. I'll note that on this employee log it's got him 3 listed as being a therapist. It says he was employed by you 4 from June of 2002 to November of 2004. Are those dates 5 accurate to the best of your knowledge? 6 A. I told you I have no idea. But that's probably 7 right if that's what Mark wrote. 8 Q. Did Tim and Todd overlap in their employment with 9 you? 10 A. Yes, they did. 11 Q. How long did Todd work for you? 12 A. Not that long. 13 Q. Be more specific if you could. How long did Todd 14 work for you? 15 A. I couldn't tell you. But probably not a year. 16 Q. Why did he leave? 17 A. I don't think he liked Tim. I don't know. We 18 have a good relationship with Todd. It was no employee 19 disputes. 20 Q. Did he leave to go -- do you have any knowledge at 21 all -- 22 A. Yeah. He got called into the bishopric and he had 23 a full-time job at the State Hospital. And he couldn't 24 handle more of a load. And he had other things he was 25 doing. He could go work for another program if he wanted DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 101 1 to. 2 Q. You hired Tim. What were his qualifications when 3 you hired him? 4 A. Tim? 5 Q. Yeah, Tim Lowe. 6 A. I know when we hired him the only therapist Mark 7 was looking for was one who had the necessary degrees to do 8 therapy in Utah. 9 Q. Why was it important to you that he had the 10 necessary degrees? 11 A. Because that was our mission statement, to do the 12 letter of the law. 13 Q. After Todd left was Tim your only therapist? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. And since that time have you hired any other 16 therapists? 17 A. Yeah, we did. 18 Q. Who? 19 A. Bernie Farrow. 20 Q. I note on Exhibit 25 Bernie Farrow is listed 21 number 14. It says that he worked -- 22 A. Well, he's not a therapist. He's a counselor. 23 But he took over because we didn't have therapy anymore. 24 Q. Why didn't you have therapy anymore? 25 A. Because we gave back the license. We gave it back DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 102 1 to the State. Because it was not fun having a residential 2 treatment center and all the stuff that goes with it. 3 Q. Tell me about that. What stuff goes with it? 4 A. I told you before. 5 Q. Well, I get to ask it again. Tell me about that. 6 What stuff goes with it? 7 A. It's their program. 8 Q. Whose program? 9 A. The State's. 10 Q. So what did they require you to do to call 11 yourself a residential treatment center? 12 A. What was that word you used? Make the kids 13 change. We don't make people change. 14 Q. Right. What I'm asking though is what the State 15 required you to do to run a business that was a residential 16 treatment center? 17 A. Make the kids change. 18 Q. The State required you to make kids change? 19 A. In my words, yeah. 20 Q. What were the State's words to you? 21 A. They would come in all the time since they're a 22 block away. And they would go through with their pencil and 23 paper. And if the kids had vitamins in their rooms they 24 couldn't have them. If the kids had a razor in their room 25 they couldn't have it. If the kids walked from our place to DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 103 1 7-Eleven we were in huge trouble. There was no freedom. 2 They had no freedom. Yet it was like a prison. 3 Q. So when did you change from being a residential 4 treatment center to being something else? 5 A. I can't tell you. 6 Q. Give me a ballpark. 7 A. I don't know. 8 Q. Was it in 2004? 9 A. I don't know. 10 Q. But you do remember that that change occurred? 11 A. Oh, yeah. 12 Q. Did you file something with the State to designate 13 that you had made that change? 14 A. I wasn't part of the process, but -- 15 Q. Who was part of the process? 16 A. Mark. 17 Q. Did Mark handle that alone? 18 A. Uh-huh. I think it was just a matter of giving 19 back our business license. 20 Q. How many kids did you have with you at that time? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Give me a ballpark. 23 A. Probably in the 30s. 24 Q. Did those kids leave once you made the change from 25 being a residential treatment center to being something DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 104 1 else? 2 A. What do you mean leave? 3 Q. I mean did any of those kids leave your program at 4 that point when you made that change? 5 A. Because we made the change? 6 Q. Yeah. 7 A. No. We've never had any kids leave our program 8 except the ones that DCFS -- 9 Q. We'll talk about that later. So when you made the 10 change from being a residential treatment center to being 11 just a boarding school -- is that what you were at that 12 point? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Did you change the nature of the services you were 15 offering? 16 A. Yeah. There was no therapists or any kind of 17 therapy. 18 Q. Were you still paying therapists after that change 19 was made? 20 A. No. We paid a counselor. 21 Q. Who? 22 A. Bernie Farrow. 23 Q. Did he still do counseling after that change had 24 been made? 25 A. Yeah. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 105 1 Q. So what changed in terms of what you were doing on 2 a day-to-day basis when you made your official change with 3 the State? 4 A. We didn't have to have so much staff. We didn't 5 have to give a report to the State office every week. 6 Q. But on a day-to-day basis in terms of what you 7 were doing with the kids what changed? 8 A. Not a whole lot changed except that we didn't have 9 to account to the State. 10 Q. Did anything change in terms of what you did with 11 the kids? 12 MR. FERGUSON: She's told you twice now about the 13 difference between the therapist and the counselor. 14 BY MR. TENNEY: 15 Q. Well, I mean, she just said that not a whole lot 16 changed. I'm trying to figure out what the not a whole lot 17 was. What changed? 18 A. Not a whole lot. 19 Q. What does that mean? What changed? 20 A. My heart was broken. 21 Q. Okay. Other than your heart being broken what 22 changed in terms of what you were doing with the kids or not 23 doing with kids? From the moment you were a residential 24 treatment center to the moment that you were no longer a 25 residential treatment center what did you do differently DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 106 1 with the kids? 2 A. Okay. Let me give you an idea here because your 3 statement is very hard to answer. But can you imagine 4 having 30 troubled teens in your home? 5 Q. I don't have to imagine that. What I'm wondering 6 is what you did differently on the day that you were no 7 longer a residential treatment center? 8 A. Well, if you could imagine having that many people 9 you'd realize nothing can change. If you've got something 10 that's working, then you work it. The only thing that was 11 different was what the State required and how we ran our 12 program. We didn't have to do it by the State rules. 13 Q. Okay. So other than no longer filling out the 14 reports with the State or allowing the State to come in and 15 inspect your facility did anything else change? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. I mean, were you running the program at that 18 point? 19 A. Yeah. We had a boarding school. 20 Q. Okay. Who would know if you don't know? 21 A. Okay. We had a boarding school, period. What do 22 you want? 23 Q. What I want is for you to tell me what changed 24 when you stopped running the program under the guise of 25 being a residential treatment center. What did you do DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 107 1 differently with the kids? 2 MR. FERGUSON: If anything. 3 BY MR. TENNEY: 4 Q. If anything. I don't want to know about your 5 heart. I don't want to know about your feelings about 6 running the school. I want to know like what you did 7 differently? What specifically? How did the program 8 change? 9 A. Well, the kids that had ever signed a contract for 10 the residential treatment center they signed a new contract 11 for the boarding school. 12 Q. Did you send out a new contract to all of the 13 parents at that point? 14 A. Just the ones that were in the residential 15 treatment. 16 Q. Were there any kids that -- 17 A. There's a lot of kids who weren't ever in the 18 residential treatment center. 19 Q. Who? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. So you had kids that were there with just a 22 boarding school contract? 23 A. Yes. This is the problem with the State. Because 24 they had no jurisdiction. They hadn't had law that could 25 say who could be where. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 108 1 Q. Okay. So you had -- did you have different 2 contracts with these kids? 3 A. Yes, we did. When we got a license for the 4 residential treatment center those kids were in the 5 residential treatment center. They had different rules to 6 go by. 7 Q. So in 2004 before you made the change from being a 8 residential treatment center to just being a boarding school 9 do I understand correctly that some kids that were under 10 your care were there for the residential treatment center 11 and some kids were there for the boarding school? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. And you had different contracts for them? 14 A. I think. 15 Q. Okay. 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Off the record for a minute. 17 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 18 held.) 19 BY MR. TENNEY: 20 Q. Does it say at the top of the contract which type 21 of contract it was? 22 A. You've got me there. I didn't take care of that 23 stuff. 24 Q. Okay. We'll move on with this. 25 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 109 1 held.) 2 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 3 BY MR. TENNEY: 4 Q. When did you buy the Whitmore mansion? 5 A. It was in March or April of whatever year that 6 was. 7 Q. Can you help me here. I think I know when it was 8 but I'm not sure. Was it 2001? 9 A. It could have been. 10 Q. Who did you buy it from? 11 A. Wilke -- Dave Wilke. 12 Q. Do you remember how much you paid for it? 13 A. Yeah, I think. It was around $500,000 14 Q. Did you use it as a bed and breakfast? 15 A. Yes, we did. 16 Q. When did you use it as a bed and breakfast? 17 A. When were the Olympics? 18 Q. 2002. 19 A. We used it from the time we bought it until right 20 after the Olympics. 21 Q. So approximately 2001 through 2002? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Did you have students living there at the same 24 time? 25 A. Yes. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 110 1 Q. So the students and the bed and breakfast 2 customers were occupying the facility at the same time? 3 A. Well, the bed and breakfast people were on the top 4 floor and the students were like on the middle floor. And 5 there was only five of them. 6 Q. Only five of what? 7 A. Students. 8 Q. Let's go ahead and do that. I hate to ask this 9 question because we might have some problems getting 10 specific numbers. I'm wondering if you could track for me 11 how many students you've had in your business since 2000 12 with as much specificity as you can remember. Take a minute 13 to think about this if you need to. It's important for us 14 to know the answer to that. So since 2000 how many students 15 have you had per year? 16 MS. SHAPIRO: Are you talking about academic year 17 or aggregate? 18 MR. FERGUSON: Calendar. 19 BY MR. TENNEY: 20 Q. Calendar year, yeah. So in 2000 you had how many? 21 In 2001 you had how many? 22 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 23 held.) 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. If you don't know -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 111 1 A. Yeah, totally guessing. I don't have exact 2 specifics. 3 Q. Okay. What's your estimation year by year since 4 2000 of how many you've had? 5 A. Maybe 82. I don't know. 6 Q. Well, I mean, if you could go -- how many did you 7 have in 2000? Do you know? 8 A. Between 12 and 18. 9 Q. What about 2001? 10 A. Maybe six. 11 Q. Six total? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. What about 2002? 14 A. Twelve to 18. 15 Q. 2003? 16 A. Twelve to 20. 17 Q. 2004? 18 A. This is like not for sure. 19 Q. This is your best guess? 20 A. Yeah. 2004 was when we got up to the highest I 21 think was the 39. 22 Q. 2005? 23 A. Okay. In 2005 it would have been 39. In 2004 it 24 would have been between 12 and 20, 23. 25 Q. When did the last paying student leave? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 112 1 A. Right after we moved out of the mansion. It was 2 right after all this. After we graduated the kids in May. 3 Q. Okay. As far as you were aware was there ever a 4 limitation placed upon you by the government as to how many 5 students you could have? 6 A. Yeah. When we got our license they had to come in 7 and tell us. 8 Q. Which license was that? 9 A. Whatever license we had. 10 Q. Okay. Do you remember what the number was? 11 A. Every year we had to be licensed through the 12 State -- through Nephi City. And every year they would come 13 and they changed it. 14 Q. To the best of your knowledge did you ever have 15 more students than your license allowed you to have? 16 A. Never. 17 Q. Let's talk about the business structure of your 18 business. You said before that the name of the business is 19 Who Am I Discovery. Is that the official name that it's 20 licensed under? Do you know? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Do you have any involvement in the -- did you have 23 any involvement in setting this up in the corporation? 24 A. No. I go to the meeting. There's a meeting. But 25 I don't remember. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 113 1 Q. How often is that meeting held? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. Who goes to that meeting? 4 A. The people that are part of. 5 Q. Who are those people? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. When was the last time you went to one of these 8 meetings? 9 A. It would have been this year I think. 10 Q. Did you go to two this year or just one? 11 A. Probably two. I don't know though. 12 Q. What about last year? Do you remember how many 13 meetings you went to last year? 14 A. I think there's two a year. I'm not sure. 15 Q. Where are these meetings held? 16 A. At our attorney's office. 17 Q. I don't want to know anything he told you. But 18 which attorney? What's his or her name -- the attorney? 19 A. It's a corporation. There's different attorneys 20 that we work with. 21 Q. Okay. Do you hold this meeting at conference 22 rooms? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. How many people attend? 25 A. It depends on how many lawyers are there. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 114 1 Q. Other than the lawyers how many people come to 2 these meetings -- these corporate meetings? 3 A. Mark and I for sure. And our kids have been with 4 us before. It just depends. 5 Q. To the best of your -- strike that. 6 What's your official title with this corporation? 7 A. Vice president. 8 Q. Do you know what Mark's official title is? 9 A. President. 10 Q. Who else are officers in this corporation? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. You don't know? Are any of your kids officers? 13 A. I don't know. 14 Q. There's reference in the documents that I've seen 15 to a Venice Sudweeks? Is that right? Is there a Venice 16 Sudweeks? Is that her name? 17 A. That's my husband's mother. 18 Q. Do you know what role she plays in the 19 corporation? 20 A. Grandma. 21 Q. She's the grandma? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. What about in the corporation? What's her role in 24 the corporation? 25 A. I don't believe that she has any role in it. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 115 1 Q. Does she come to these meetings? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Do you ever remember seeing her at these meetings? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Do any of your kids have official roles in this 6 corporation that you're aware of? 7 A. I doubt it. 8 Q. You said that they've come to these meetings 9 before. Is that right? 10 A. We do a lot of things together. 11 Q. Okay. But the question was did any of these kids 12 come to these meetings? 13 A. I said sometimes they probably have. 14 Q. Okay. The money that the parents paid you for 15 your services where did that money go? 16 A. Well, we didn't get enough. 17 Q. Okay. But the question was where did that money 18 go? 19 A. Well, my sister asked me the same question. 20 Q. Well, this time it's under oath. Where did that 21 money go? 22 A. Okay. Well, I figured it was around a hundred and 23 something a day. 24 Q. Well, I'm not asking the amount. 25 A. No, I'm breaking it down. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 116 1 Q. I'm not asking the amount yet. I will ask you 2 that. 3 A. Okay. 4 Q. But I'm asking right now did it go to a bank 5 account? Where did the money go? 6 MR. FERGUSON: Well, I guess I interpreted the 7 question the same way Cheryl did as you wanted to know what 8 money was paid for what specific items of overhead. 9 BY MR. TENNEY: 10 Q. Okay. Right. That wasn't a clear question. Let 11 me rephrase. I apologize for that. When you got money from 12 your clients -- 13 A. I never got any money. 14 Q. Okay. When money was paid by the clients did that 15 money go to a particular bank account? 16 A. I had nothing to do with the money. 17 Q. Who handled that end of things? 18 A. Different people. 19 Q. Who? 20 A. Well, we had a horse program. We had a school 21 program. We had a recreation program. We had a travelling 22 program. We had food. We had miscellaneous. We had rent. 23 We had taxes. We had insurance. 24 Q. When the parents paid you -- when the clients paid 25 you -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 117 1 A. It went to the different people that were in 2 charge of different things. 3 Q. -- did the money get deposited into a bank 4 account? 5 A. Well, you would imagine. 6 Q. That's what I'm asking. Did it get deposited into 7 a bank account? 8 A. Then I'm saying I don't know. 9 Q. You don't know. Okay. Do you know who handled 10 the money when it came to you from the parents? 11 A. It never came to me. 12 Q. When it came to the corporation do you know who 13 handled it? 14 A. I told you different people. 15 Q. Who are those different people? 16 A. I just told you the people that were in charge of 17 these different aspects of the program. 18 Q. When the money came in did it go to Mark first? 19 A. I don't know. 20 Q. You don't have any knowledge of where the money 21 went? 22 A. It probably went to him if they got him first. A 23 lot of parents would pay when they came. 24 Q. Do you know if there was a bank account set up in 25 the name of Whitmore Academy? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 118 1 A. I don't. 2 Q. You don't know or there was not one? 3 A. I don't know. 4 Q. Do you know if there was a bank account set up in 5 the name of the Chilanko Lodge? 6 A. Of course. 7 Q. So you do know that there was a bank account set 8 up in the name of the Chilanko Lodge? 9 A. That I do know. 10 Q. Was there ever a bank account set up in the name 11 of Who Am I Discovery? 12 A. I don't think so. 13 Q. Do you know that for a fact or do you just not 14 know? 15 A. I don't know that for a fact. 16 Q. Okay. Did the parents pay you on a monthly basis 17 or did they pay you in a lump sum? How was that handled? 18 A. Well, probably a third of the parents never paid 19 at all. 20 Q. Okay. As far as those parents who did pay you did 21 you have any particular payment plan that you preferred as a 22 corporation or how was that handled? 23 A. Remember to look at me. 24 Q. I can look wherever I want to look. How was that 25 handled? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 119 1 A. Well, I am not sure. Because like I said before I 2 am not the person who dealt with the money. 3 Q. And that person was whom? 4 A. I told you this before too. It depended on who 5 they went through. 6 Q. Okay. So did the parents give you a specific 7 amount of money for equine therapy? 8 A. It was all broke down to where the money was 9 going. 10 Q. When you charged the parents did you charge them a 11 specific amount for food? 12 A. Of course. I mean, it had to come out of the 13 money that they gave us. 14 Q. Did you charge them a specific amount for equine 15 therapy? 16 A. Of course. It had to come out of the money that 17 they gave us. 18 Q. Okay. So when they gave you the money were they 19 giving you money for your entire program? Or were they 20 giving you small individual portions of money for the 21 different parts of your program? 22 A. They gave us money for different parts of the 23 program. And sometimes in the lump sum because they would 24 borrow the money from somebody else. Or a lot of times they 25 would pay by the month. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 120 1 Q. Okay. So would the bill that you sent them say 2 this amount of money is for equine therapy and this amount 3 of money is for food? 4 A. You're just not getting it. I never sent them any 5 bills. You just asked me. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Maybe I could clarify things just a 7 bit. 8 MR. TENNEY: That would be helpful. 9 MR. FERGUSON: You're deposing her as Cheryl 10 Sudweeks. You're not deposing her as Who Am I Discovery or 11 Whitmore Academy or a 30(b)(6). 12 MR. TENNEY: Sure. 13 MR. FERGUSON: But the questions you're asking are 14 30(b)(6) type questions. 15 MR. TENNEY: Well, if you'd like we can set up 16 another deposition. I'm happy to come here again. 17 MR. FERGUSON: What I'm about to suggest to you is 18 that she's telling you what her role in the company is. 19 You're not happy with her answer. 20 Your questions about money and about corporation 21 organization probably are better directed to Mark. You can 22 ask them if you want. 23 MR. TENNEY: Okay. 24 MR. FERGUSON: I just think you're going to be 25 frustrated. She's frustrated. You're not getting anywhere. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 121 1 THE WITNESS: You're digging for something I don't 2 have. 3 MR. FERGUSON: She's told you several times she 4 didn't get the money. She doesn't know anything about the 5 money. 6 MR. TENNEY: She's told me -- I'm having a hard 7 time understanding what it is exactly she's told me. She's 8 told me that the money came and that it was dispersed to 9 different people. You said different people for different 10 things. 11 And so she clearly is indicating that she has some 12 knowledge about this. And I'm trying to get her to explain 13 to me what her knowledge is. If she'd just simply said I 14 have no idea where the money went, we'd be off the subject. 15 That's not what she said. 16 MR. FERGUSON: Well, she has an idea where it 17 went. She's given you that idea. But your questions are -- 18 MR. TENNEY: Let me ask you as the attorney then. 19 Do you want us to come back and do a specific 30(b)(6) or do 20 you want to do this now? 21 MR. FERGUSON: I think if you ask Mark these 22 questions you'll be much happier with the outcome. 23 MR. TENNEY: I mean, I am going to ask Mark these 24 questions. I don't want to lose my chance to talk to Cheryl 25 about it though. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 122 1 MR. FERGUSON: You can ask her. Just understand 2 you're asking her stuff that's not really in her area of 3 knowledge or expertise. 4 BY MR. TENNEY: 5 Q. Okay. Let's just clarify that then. Do you have 6 personal knowledge about the means by which the money went 7 from a parent to your food bill? Or was that something that 8 you just were not involved in? I hope that's a specific 9 enough question. 10 A. You're going to have to repeat that question. 11 Q. Okay. Do you personally have any knowledge of 12 what happened to money that came from a parent in order to 13 allow that money to be used for a food bill? Do you know 14 where that money went? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. FERGUSON: Can you trace the dollars -- 17 MR. TENNEY: Can you trace the dollars? 18 MR. FERGUSON: -- from the parent to somebody at 19 Whitmore Academy, to a bank account, to an employee, to a 20 store? You know, that sort of thing. Do you have that kind 21 of knowledge? 22 THE WITNESS: I don't have the kind of knowledge 23 that you'd be able to trace that money. But I have 24 knowledge of parents giving money to maybe one of the staff 25 to go buy -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 123 1 BY MR. TENNEY: 2 Q. I'm not talking about the extra money parents gave 3 their kids. I'm talking about the money they paid you as 4 part of their contract with Whitmore Academy or Who Am I 5 Discovery or whatever. Do you know where that money went? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You don't know that. Do you know who knows that? 8 A. Well, probably Mark. 9 Q. Okay. You said before that Mark was the president 10 of the corporation and you were the vice president? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you have a specific division of 13 responsibilities? 14 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. Was handling the finances of the corporation 16 something that Mark did? 17 A. I told you that. 18 Q. Okay. So we'll ask those questions on Thursday. 19 Everybody there? 20 You may not know the answers to these questions as 21 well then, but I'm going to ask them. And if you don't know 22 just tell me you don't know. Do you know if The Whitmore 23 Academy or Who Am I Discovery if these corporations owned 24 any property in the name of the corporations? Do you know 25 that? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 124 1 A. Repeat. 2 Q. Do you know whether your businesses -- whether 3 your corporations owned property in the corporate name? Do 4 you know that or do you not have any knowledge of that? 5 MS. SHAPIRO: Assumes facts not in evidence as far 6 as Who Am I Discovery and its corporate status. 7 BY MR. TENNEY: 8 Q. Do you know whether your business owned 9 property -- 10 A. I totally don't get your question. 11 Q. Okay. Did you have any involvement with the 12 corporation's decision to purchase property or not purchase 13 property? Did you have any involvement in that at all? 14 A. I could express whether I liked it or not. 15 Q. That's not my question. Is this something that 16 Mark handled as well? 17 A. Okay. I could answer this if you're more 18 specific. I'm not getting what you're saying. 19 Q. Do you know if the Whitmore -- let me ask the 20 backup to that. Do you know what the corporate name was? 21 Was the corporate name Who Am I Discovery dot com or was the 22 corporate name The Whitmore Academy? Do you know that? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Okay. Do you know was there a corporation that 25 you guys were operating under? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 125 1 A. Some kind of corporation. 2 Q. Okay. That corporation, whatever it was called, 3 do you know if that corporation owned any property in its 4 corporate name? 5 A. I don't know. I wouldn't. 6 Q. Okay. That's all I need to know. Who was 7 authorized to make purchasing decisions for the corporation? 8 Who was authorized to go out and buy food for the school? 9 A. I don't know. Because when we went out and bought 10 food for the school we did it together. 11 Q. What money did you use? Where did that money come 12 from? 13 A. A credit card. 14 Q. Whose name was that credit card in? 15 A. A Costco credit card. 16 Q. Was that under your name? 17 A. I think it's under Mark's name. I don't know. We 18 always used Mark's card. I don't have one. Maybe I have 19 one, but I don't carry one around. 20 Q. Did you ever have any investors in this business 21 that you're aware of? 22 A. I don't think we're the kind of business you think 23 we are. No, we didn't have investors that I know of. 24 Q. You're not aware of any outside capital coming 25 into your business? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 126 1 A. No. 2 Q. Earlier you mentioned that you had from time to 3 time used referral services. I think you referred to them 4 as education consultants? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? Not uh-huh. Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sorry. 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. Which educational consultants did you work with 10 since 2000? I'll limit it to 2000 and beyond. 11 A. A man named Steve. 12 Q. Do you know his last name? 13 A. Uh-uh. 14 Q. Where was he operating -- 15 A. No. Back East. 16 Q. Where back East? Do you know which state? 17 A. I don't. 18 Q. What about an organization known as Pure? Did you 19 ever work with an organization named Pure? 20 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 21 held.) 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, we did. 23 BY MR. TENNEY: 24 Q. How did you first come into contact with Pure? 25 A. She was looking at different programs. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 127 1 Q. She being who? 2 A. Sue Shep. And when she came and stayed with us 3 she was amazed. 4 Q. When was this? 5 A. It was a while back. 6 Q. Can you be more specific on a while back? 7 A. Not really. Maybe a couple years. 8 Q. Was it after 2000? 9 A. Oh, yeah. 10 Q. After 2001? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. After 2002? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. After 2003? 15 A. Probably three. 16 Q. Probably three. How long did she stay with you? 17 A. She was always there. 18 Q. How long did she stay with you? 19 A. Oh, to visit? 20 Q. Yeah. You said that she came out and stayed with 21 you and was amazed. How long did she stay with you? 22 A. She came I think three different times. And she 23 would stay a couple days. 24 Q. Did she refer -- to the best of your knowledge did 25 she refer students to your program after that initial visit? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 128 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you know how many students she referred to you? 3 A. I have no idea. 4 Q. Do you have a guess on that or can you give me a 5 ballpark figure? 6 A. Maybe 30. 7 Q. Over the course of three years or so? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Were any of the plaintiffs to the best of your 10 knowledge referred to you by Sue Shep or Pure? 11 A. I don't know who referred the kids. I usually 12 wasn't part of that. 13 Q. Did you or did the corporation pay Sue Shep for 14 her referrals? 15 A. No, I don't think so. 16 Q. So you didn't give her money of any kind? 17 A. Not that I know of. But like I said -- 18 Q. So why was she referring students to you? What 19 was she getting out of it? Do you know? 20 A. She had a daughter who was in an abusive program. 21 And she -- that's the kind of person she is. She was 22 looking for good places. 23 Q. When was the last time you talked to Sue Shep? 24 A. Probably -- I haven't talked to her on the phone 25 for probably two years. On the e-mail I've heard from her DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 129 1 off and on. She just won a lawsuit and she sent an e-mail. 2 Q. Have you talked to her or e-mailed -- have you 3 communicated with her about this lawsuit? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Tell me about those communications. 6 A. That's really broad. 7 Q. That's true, yeah. You said that you had 8 communicated with her about the lawsuit so I'm just asking 9 what those communications were. When did you communicate 10 with her about this lawsuit? 11 A. When it was first going on. You mean on the 12 phone? 13 Q. Any communication. E-mail, phone, anything. 14 A. I talked to her on the phone when it was first 15 going on. She felt really bad. She was really nice. And 16 she sends kind of little pick-me-ups so I don't get 17 depressed. 18 Q. Since 2000 -- working from the time period from 19 2000 on was there a process by which you decided who to 20 admit into the program? 21 A. Oh, yes. 22 Q. What was that process? 23 A. Well, like I said before no adjudicated kids. 24 Q. By that you meant no kids with criminal 25 backgrounds. Is that right? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 130 1 A. Right. 2 Q. What else? What else was part of this process? 3 A. Well, we all had to agree on it. 4 Q. We all meaning who? 5 A. The therapists, Mark, I, the staff. We had staff 6 meetings on Mondays. We would talk about the kids that were 7 interested. And they would -- we'd either say yes or I'm 8 worried or I don't think so. 9 Q. So other than the criminal record restriction what 10 other restrictions did you have in place? What other types 11 of kids did you not admit? 12 A. Well, like Justin Busa when he came he had a big 13 safety pin in his ear and he had a bunch of other stuff. 14 And he had tattoos and he had on his gangster stuff and a 15 mohawk down to here. And normally that wouldn't have 16 happened. And the formal staff meetings we had at the 17 Whitmore back in Chilanko it would be Mark and I and our 18 family. And they all said no. 19 Q. They all said no to -- 20 A. No, they weren't interested in taking. And 21 Michelle just kept calling and calling. 22 Q. So you're talking about Justin Busa specifically? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Keep going. 25 A. He's one of the very few examples of ones we might DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 131 1 have taken. 2 Q. And the reasons you were concerned about him, just 3 to make sure I'm clear, is was because he had a mohawk and 4 he had tattoos and he had some piercings? 5 A. And he did drugs and he had a really bad attitude 6 and he didn't want to come. 7 Back at Chilanko most of the kids were okay with 8 that -- with coming. We never had to have kids escorted. 9 Q. But as far as a kid being admitted into the 10 program though, I mean, did you ever admit kids that you 11 hadn't met? 12 A. Hu? 13 Q. Did you ever admit kids before you had actually 14 met them? 15 A. No. 16 Q. You always met the kids before you admitted them 17 in your program? 18 A. That was the standard procedure. There could have 19 been some -- 20 Q. Can you think of any exceptions where you admitted 21 a kid before you met him? 22 A. I can't think of any, but there could have been. 23 But the normal procedure was the parents would come out and 24 look at it first, talk to the kids. And then they'd bring 25 their child and see how they accepted it. And if they liked DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 132 1 it enough even if they didn't accept it they would leave. 2 And if -- most of the kids were okay within a couple weeks. 3 Q. Did you ever admit a kid who had been adjudicated 4 prior to coming? 5 MR. FERGUSON: Are you asking if she did it 6 knowingly? 7 MR. TENNEY: Yeah. Thank you. 8 THE WITNESS: Knowingly no. 9 BY MR. TENNEY: 10 Q. So you're not aware of any instance in which you 11 admitted a kid who had had a criminal record. Is that 12 correct? 13 A. I'm not aware of any instance that we admitted a 14 kid knowing that he had a criminal record. 15 Q. Are we talking about just felonies or are we 16 talking about felonies and misdemeanors? 17 A. I have no idea. 18 Q. Okay. That's fair. What happened if at your 19 staff meeting you disagreed about a kid? Who won the 20 argument? 21 Suppose that a child applied, wanted to come to 22 the school. And you thought he was okay but Mark didn't 23 think he was okay. What happened at that point? 24 A. There was contention in the family. And there's 25 been times that Mark has sent them home. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 133 1 Q. I'm just talking about the admissions at this 2 point. Did somebody have the ultimate say? That's what I'm 3 asking. If you guys were split down the middle -- you, 4 Todd, Tim, Mark are sitting in a room and you're looking at 5 a prospective student. And half of you want him in and half 6 of you don't want him. Did somebody have the ability to win 7 that argument just by virtue of their position? 8 A. That wasn't the standard procedure. 9 Q. What was the procedure? Did you have to come to 10 some sort of unanimity? 11 A. I think I said that. 12 Q. Do I understand that correctly then? You had to 13 unanimously agree to admit him? 14 A. We tried to. 15 Q. What happened when you didn't? Who made the call 16 if you didn't reach unanimity? 17 A. I can't think of any situations. 18 Q. Okay. Once a child came to Whitmore Academy, was 19 admitted into the program, who made the decision where the 20 child slept? 21 A. When they first came to the program there was 22 really no decision where they would sleep. We would try to 23 put the child with one of the older students who understood 24 and was more patient and kind. 25 Q. Who made that decision where to put that child? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 134 1 A. It wasn't one person. It was usually we'd have a 2 group where the kids would all get together and we'd talk 3 about it. And it was usually a unanimous decision. And 4 there were kids that were up for the running, you know. 5 Q. You're saying that the other students helped 6 decide where the new students slept? 7 A. They would be part of the decision. 8 Q. Did that happen every time? 9 A. Probably not. 10 Q. Okay. Just speaking about the Whitmore mansion 11 period -- what, 2002 on? Once you were operating out of the 12 Whitmore mansion where did you sleep? Specifically what 13 room did you sleep in? 14 A. I didn't get to sleep as much as I wanted to. 15 Q. That wasn't the question now, was it? I'm asking 16 which room you slept in? 17 A. I slept in the basement. 18 Q. Which room in the basement? 19 A. And I slept on the top floor. And I slept on the 20 middle floor. 21 Q. How often did you change rooms? 22 A. Depending on how the kids were acting. 23 Q. I mean, did it just change on a day by day thing 24 or did you have one room that was your room? 25 A. Sometimes it was day by day. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 135 1 Q. Okay. Was there a room that was generally 2 considered to be your bedroom? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Okay. Where did Mark sleep? 5 A. Usually with me unless he had to be with an 6 emergency. 7 Q. So wherever you were sleeping that night he was 8 sleeping too and vice versa? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. And the two of you did not have a bedroom that was 11 your bedroom? 12 A. Not per se. 13 Q. Well, what other way is there other than per se? 14 I mean, did the two of you have a bedroom that was your 15 bedroom? 16 A. Yeah, for the night. 17 Q. Okay. Where did your kids sleep during the 18 Whitmore mansion phase? Did they have their own bedrooms? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Which bedrooms did they have? 21 A. They changed too. 22 Q. How often did they change? 23 A. Everybody changed. More than they wanted to. But 24 they are good kids. They didn't complain. They slept 25 probably in every room in the mansion. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 136 1 Q. What was the longest time period that one of your 2 kids slept in the same room? Did anybody have a room for a 3 full year or did it change more frequently than that? 4 A. More frequently. 5 Q. We're probably at a stopping point. Why don't we 6 stop now. 7 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. I'd like to talk now about the therapy that you 10 were offering. You indicated before that at some point I 11 believe you said in approximately 2002 you began officially 12 offering therapy as part of your program. Is that right? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. Okay. Let's talk about what you referred to as 18 equine therapy first. And I'll try to cover this as briefly 19 as possible. Did you offer something called equine therapy 20 as part of your program? 21 A. In the brochure that we made we said equine 22 therapy. But that was changed. 23 Q. When was it changed? 24 A. Like before it even got distributed. They 25 didn't -- the State -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 137 1 Q. Did you continue telling people that you offered 2 equine therapy? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You didn't tell any prospective parents that you 5 offered equine therapy? 6 A. No. We told them that the horses were our best 7 therapists. 8 Q. Explain to me what the difference between that is. 9 What's the difference between saying that you had equine 10 therapy versus saying that the horses were your best 11 therapists? Help me here. What's the difference? 12 A. Equine therapy would involve someone with an 13 accredited -- how did you say it -- school therapy degree. 14 And horses don't have degrees, but they're the best 15 therapists. 16 Q. Okay. Did you tell the prospective parents that 17 part of the kids' treatment at your program would involve 18 the horses? 19 A. Oh, absolutely. It still does -- or still would. 20 Q. How exactly do the horses factor into their 21 treatment -- the students' treatment? 22 A. It's part of the daily routine. 23 Q. What happens as far as that routine goes with the 24 horses? 25 A. When the kids come into the home they either have DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 138 1 a horse or else they share a horse. Eventually they have 2 one. If they don't know much about it they share. 3 And they're responsible under Trinity's care or 4 whoever is in charge of the horse program at the time of 5 feeding, watering, riding. They have a lot of reports they 6 do. She shows them a lot of different techniques, things. 7 She does Join-Up with them, which is a technique she did 8 learn from Monty Roberts. 9 Q. Who is Monty Roberts? 10 A. He is the horse whisperer. 11 MS. SHAPIRO: Ryan, we covered this in other 12 depositions. Don't you remember the horse whisperer? 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. The horse whisperer, that's right. What training 15 exactly did your daughter receive from Monty Roberts? 16 A. When she was going to Thatcher School she -- they 17 have a senior project that they work on. 18 Q. Where was the Thatcher School? 19 A. In Ojai, California. And Monty Roberts lives in 20 Santa Barbara. 21 Q. Was he an instructor at the Thatcher School? 22 A. No. She just picked him for her mentor and she 23 would go to his place. And he taught her Join-Up. 24 Q. Did he give her any sort of degree or 25 certification or anything? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 139 1 A. No. She never claimed to ever have any 2 certification. 3 Q. Did you ever claim that she had any certification? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So then to make sure that I've got this correctly 6 your testimony is that you were not telling prospective 7 clients that you offered equine therapy. Is that correct? 8 A. No. That we had a horse program. 9 Q. By no you mean, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Let's talk about individual therapy. After you 12 hired Todd Powers for the next couple years you were 13 offering therapy as part of your program. Is that correct? 14 Individual therapy? 15 A. I'm not sure what it was. Whatever the State 16 requirements were. 17 Q. State requirements for what? 18 A. For what the therapists had to fulfill. 19 Q. Were you telling prospective clients that you were 20 offering individual therapy as part of your program? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You were not telling prospective clients that 23 their children would receive individual therapy? 24 A. No. We were telling them they would receive what 25 the State required from the clinical psychologists. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 140 1 Q. In terms of -- what were the clinical 2 psychologists going to be offering? 3 A. I'm not sure what exactly it all entailed, but 4 part of it was individual therapy. 5 Q. So you were telling parents that their kids would 6 get individual therapy? 7 MR. FERGUSON: I think you're misstating the 8 testimony. 9 BY MR. TENNEY: 10 Q. I'm just trying to get a real specific answer. 11 Were you telling -- 12 A. You're trying to get me to say something that we 13 didn't say. 14 Q. Okay. Well, then help me here. Were you telling 15 prospective parents that their children would receive 16 individual therapy as part of your program? 17 A. We told them that they would receive the 18 therapy -- 19 Q. I'm sorry, this is a yes or no and then we'll go 20 on depending what you say. Yes or no were you telling the 21 prospective parents that their kids would be receiving 22 individual therapy? Yes or no? 23 A. That's too broad of a question. 24 Q. How is that too broad? 25 A. Because that's not -- I wouldn't get on the phone DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 141 1 and say you're going to get individual therapy. 2 Q. Okay. So if a parent asked you the question on 3 the phone, Is my kid going to receive individual therapy, 4 did you tell them yes or no? 5 A. That they would get individual therapy as far as 6 the State allowed. 7 Q. Okay. So then the individual therapy would happen 8 through Todd Powers or Tim Lowe or whoever the licensed 9 therapist was on site. Is that right? 10 A. Yes. They know how many hours they have to spend 11 with each child. 12 Q. And how many hours do they have to spend with each 13 child? 14 A. I couldn't tell you that. But I do know that -- 15 the only thing I do know is that Todd and Tim would have 16 different -- individual therapy could include family 17 therapy. I do know that. 18 Q. We'll talk about family therapy in a minute. I'm 19 going to mark this as an exhibit. 20 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 26 was marked 21 for identification.) 22 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 23 held.) 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. Ms. Sudweeks, I'm handing what's been marked as DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 142 1 Exhibit No. 26. Do you recognize this document? 2 A. No. 3 Q. I'm going to represent to you that this is a set 4 of answers that through your counsel have been provided to 5 us in response to some interrogatories that we sent out a 6 few months ago. Do you recall having received a set of 7 written questions in the mail from us? 8 A. I recall something. 9 Q. Did you have any involvement in answering those 10 questions? 11 A. Sorts. 12 Q. Okay. I'm going to note here just to be clear on 13 the record that the first paragraph of this answer it 14 specifically notes that you had asserted and preserved your 15 constitutional privileges and had not participated in these 16 responses. 17 With that said I'm going to refer you to some 18 answers and just ask you if you can verify for me if they're 19 accurate. If you could turn to Interrogatory 13, page 20 eight. 21 In Interrogatory No. 13 we had asked you to 22 provide us a list of -- 13A we had asked you to provide us a 23 list of persons who had conducted therapy sessions. And in 24 the answer, whoever it was that prepared this answer, The 25 Whitmore Academy stated that, "Therapy was provided on a DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 143 1 biweekly basis by a licensed therapist recognized by the 2 State of Utah." Do you see where I'm reading from in the 3 answer to 13? 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And it then says that, "Todd Powers and Tim Lowe 6 were the therapists and were the only individuals to provide 7 therapy." Do you see that? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Let me ask you a couple questions about those two 10 sentences. 11 A. Do you want to read that last sentence too? 12 Q. Sure. "Therapy consisted of individual and family 13 sessions in which parents were involved via telephone." Did 14 I read that correctly? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Other than Todd Powers and Tim Lowe did you ever 17 hire anybody else to conduct therapy from the period 2000 18 through present day? 19 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. What about Bernie Farrow? We covered this before. 21 I just want to make sure I'm clear on that. Was Bernie 22 Farrow hired to provide therapy services? 23 A. Bernie Farrow was hired in 2005. 24 Q. When he was hired was he hired to provide therapy? 25 A. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 144 1 Q. What about Dave Kozlowski? Was he hired to 2 provide therapy? 3 A. No. 4 Q. What was he hired for? 5 A. He was working on his degree. And he wanted to do 6 an internship with Tim. 7 Q. So he was working under Tim? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Do you know if he ever offered individual 10 counseling or individual therapy to the students? 11 A. I know that he helped Tim. 12 Q. Do you know whether he ever did any therapy 13 outside of the presence of Tim? 14 A. I can't recall. 15 Q. It says -- referring again to that answer it says 16 that therapy was provided on a biweekly basis. I'm assuming 17 that means once every two weeks. Is that right? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. Okay. 20 A. He had a calendar with their names on it. 21 Q. Was that part of the contract, that the students 22 would receive therapy on a biweekly basis? 23 A. I couldn't even tell you what's in their contract. 24 I just knew that that's what the parents were happy with. 25 Q. Was that what you told the parents that their DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 145 1 children would receive? 2 A. I don't know if I told you this, but I never 3 usually talked to the parents. 4 Q. Were there circumstances -- were there instances 5 in which you did talk to the parents? 6 A. Over the years a few. 7 Q. Do you recall any such incidence in which the 8 parent asked you how often their child would receive 9 therapy? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. When we talk about therapy what are we talking 12 about? When it says in this answer that the student 13 received biweekly therapy what does that mean? 14 A. On the calendar each of the kids had their name 15 twice in a month on a certain date. And they had to be in 16 the office at that time. 17 Q. So by therapy -- I'm just going to focus on that 18 word therapy. Does that mean an in office visit with either 19 Todd Powers or Tim Lowe? 20 A. Well, therapists have different styles. Tim and 21 Todd are two different people. Therapy to Todd was taking 22 them for a hamburger and talking. 23 Q. So in your view that qualified as therapy Todd -- 24 I'm sorry, were you talking about Todd or Tim? 25 A. Todd. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 146 1 Q. So in your view if Todd took a kid out for a 2 hamburger that was his therapy for that two week period? 3 A. We respected Todd in that he knew what he was 4 doing. 5 Q. Did you give him any guidelines as to what he 6 needed to offer? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What were those guidelines? 9 A. I couldn't tell you. He just knew what we 10 expected. 11 Q. Okay. So he was okay with you? He was consistent 12 with your guidelines if his therapy was conducted say at a 13 fast food restaurant? 14 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. Or in a car? 16 A. And it was fine with the parents too. 17 Q. Okay. According to your guidelines would it have 18 been -- would it have counted as therapy if he had 19 discussed -- if he had talked to the kid with other kids 20 present? In other words, suppose he's got three kids in a 21 car and they're driving somewhere and he takes turns talking 22 to them. Does that count as therapy? 23 MR. FERGUSON: I think the question it calls for a 24 legal and an expert opinion. 25 BY MR. TENNEY: DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 147 1 Q. Okay. What I'm meaning to ask though isn't 2 necessarily legal and/or expert. What I'm meaning to ask is 3 under your guidelines for what this means -- what biweekly 4 therapy means would that have counted under what you thought 5 the kids were entitled to? 6 MR. FERGUSON: Same objections, but answer if you 7 can. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. My answer would be that is a 9 very broad question. Obviously you don't understand the 10 business. But the State of Utah makes those rules. And 11 number one rule the clinical psychologist oversees us. We 12 don't oversee him. 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. So he was giving you guidelines? 15 A. That's his job. To make sure that we're doing 16 things right. 17 Q. Did you have any supervisory control over how he 18 conducted his therapy? 19 A. We let him know if we were pleased or we weren't 20 pleased. 21 Q. What would he do that would please or displease 22 you? 23 A. We were very happy with Todd. 24 Q. That wasn't my question though. You said that you 25 would let him know if you were pleased or displeased -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 148 1 A. We were happy with Todd because the kids trusted 2 him. 3 Q. Okay. That still wasn't my question. My question 4 is when you said that you'd let him know if you were pleased 5 or displeased what was he doing that would please or 6 displease you? 7 A. He was building that trust. 8 Q. How do you know that? 9 A. Because the kids loved him. 10 Q. How do you know that? 11 A. Because they told us and the interaction they had 12 together was very positive. 13 Q. Let me ask the question again very specifically. 14 I'm hoping you can give me a specific answer. What 15 authority did you have over him, if any? Did you have any 16 authority to tell him how to do his job? 17 A. I didn't have authority, but I could tell him. 18 Q. Did he have to listen to you? 19 A. No. But we respected each other. 20 Q. Okay. So your testimony is that you did not have 21 the authority to condition how he conducted therapy? 22 A. No. 23 Q. When the prospective clients -- parents -- when 24 the future parents would come to you and talk to you about 25 your program and they'd ask you what sort of therapy their DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 149 1 kids were going to get, I mean, did you explain that to 2 them? That you really didn't have any supervisory control 3 over how the therapy was going to be conducted? 4 A. That's a bad question, but I'll -- 5 Q. Tell me how to make it better. Go ahead. 6 A. -- answer. When parents would come we would 7 explain how that particular therapist did therapy and how 8 Tim did therapy. We usually let them pick which therapist 9 they thought their child would interact with the best. 10 Q. Okay. So let's talk about these two styles then. 11 You said before that Todd was very informal. He would take 12 kids to Burger King for therapy or something like that. 13 What would Tim do? 14 A. He would put them in his office and do the 15 therapist thing. 16 Q. What does that mean, the therapist thing? 17 A. A lot of kids didn't like Tim. 18 Q. That wasn't my question. What does that mean, the 19 therapist thing? 20 A. Kids don't like the therapist thing. 21 Q. Okay. Well, that wasn't my question either. My 22 question is what is the therapist thing? 23 A. Out of a book. 24 Q. What do you mean out of a book? This isn't a 25 trick question. I'm not trying to trick you or anything. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 150 1 I'm just asking you to explain what it is you -- 2 MR. FERGUSON: Let me ask this if I can, Ryan. 3 Did you ever sit in a therapy session with Tim and a 4 student? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. FERGUSON: How did he do it? 7 THE WITNESS: He would sit at a desk. And he 8 would have the child -- normally he would have the parent on 9 a speakerphone. 10 MR. TENNEY: That's family therapy. I'm talking 11 about individual therapy. 12 THE WITNESS: A lot of the kids didn't want 13 individual therapy so the parents would settle for family 14 therapy. 15 MR. FERGUSON: But explain what he did. 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. When he did individual therapy what did he do? 18 A. He would try to talk to them. But the kids would 19 make jokes about it afterwards. 20 Q. Okay. When he did individual therapy what did he 21 do? What was the process? Help me if you can. You said 22 you sat in on it sometimes. 23 A. The one I sat in on he asked one of the girls if 24 she liked vanilla ice cream or chocolate ice cream. And she 25 said she liked vanilla. And he said, That's just stupid. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 151 1 You should like all kinds of ice cream. Why would you 2 settle for one boy when you have so many flavors out there. 3 And then she went and told a friend. And he told 4 the same story to about eight other girls. 5 Q. So in general terms Tim was more formal, sit down 6 in a room with them, while Todd was more informal. Is that 7 right? 8 A. Very much. 9 Q. Okay. Did they have to keep written records 10 regarding their individual therapy? 11 A. Yes, they did. 12 Q. And did you have -- where did those records go? 13 Did you get access to those records? 14 A. I'm sure that Mark probably did. But the State 15 always came in and checked the records. 16 Q. Did the State keep copies of them? Or did they 17 just check to make sure they were being kept? 18 A. They would come and check them. 19 Q. Do you know if they made copies of them? 20 A. I don't know. 21 Q. Did you review those records? 22 A. Never. 23 Q. Have you ever looked at those records? 24 A. Never. 25 Q. You've never even seen them? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 152 1 A. No. 2 Q. So that probably answers my next question, but 3 I'll go ahead and ask it. Did you ever alter any of those 4 records? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you ever write on those records? 7 A. That's absurd. No. 8 Q. By those records we're talking -- describe what 9 those -- well, I guess you've never seen them so you can't 10 describe them. 11 Where were those records kept? Physically where 12 were they kept? 13 A. Tim's office. 14 Q. Was there a lock on the door to Tim's office? 15 A. Yes, there was. 16 Q. Were they kept in a filing cabinet? 17 A. I don't know. 18 Q. You don't know -- okay. 19 What about the Canada period? Let's just talk 20 real briefly about the 2000 to 2001 period. Did you have 21 any therapists on site just to make sure that's clear? 22 A. No. 23 (Whereupon, Ruth Shapiro left the deposition.) 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. I understand that the program took a number of DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 153 1 field trips. You routinely took extended trips. Is that 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. That's part of what we do. 4 Q. Let's go ahead and mark this. We're going to talk 5 about those specific trips a bit later. I want to ask 6 you -- while we're talking about therapy I do want to ask 7 you a question about that now. 8 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 27 was marked 9 for identification.) 10 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 11 held.) 12 BY MR. TENNEY: 13 Q. I'm handing you what's been marked as Exhibit No. 14 27. Have you ever seen this document before? 15 A. Could have. Not to my recollection. 16 Q. Okay. I'm going to represent to you that this is 17 a document that's been provided to us by your attorneys in 18 response to a question that we asked wherein we asked for a 19 listing of all the extended trips that you would take. 20 MR. FERGUSON: Don't write on it. 21 THE WITNESS: I have to turn it back in? 22 BY MR. TENNEY: 23 Q. Yeah. That's okay. We've all got clean copies in 24 our files. 25 We will be talking about these trips later. But I DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 154 1 want to ask you a specific question about the trips and 2 therapy which is this. 3 When you would go on these types of trips, these 4 extended field trips I guess we'll call them, did you bring 5 Todd and Tim along? 6 A. I know we brought them on our trips, but I don't 7 know which ones. We didn't bring them. They would meet us. 8 Q. Now, did you drive on most of these trips? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. Okay. In fact, let's walk through them just for 11 purposes of -- this is a limited question. This trip log 12 lists nine different trips that you took from I believe the 13 time period we asked for was 2000 to the present. 14 The first trip you've indicated that you took was 15 a trip to Zions National Park in May of 2002. And you've 16 indicated you went by bus. Where it says supervisors that 17 went along it lists Mark, you, and your daughter Shayla. It 18 doesn't list Tim or Todd. Do you know if Tim or Todd or any 19 other therapist went on that trip? 20 A. No, they didn't go on that trip. 21 Q. How long were you on that trip? 22 A. It must not have been longer than a couple weeks. 23 Q. What does that mean? 24 A. If it was longer than that, then Tim or Todd would 25 meet us somewhere. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 155 1 Q. Longer than what? 2 A. Than a two week period. 3 Q. So you're saying this trip was shorter than two 4 weeks? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. So Tim or Todd never came on this trip? 7 A. No. 8 Q. What about the next trip listed? Number two is a 9 trip to Yellowstone and Jackson Hole in June of 2002 also by 10 bus. Once again the only adults that are listed are Mark, 11 you and Shayla. Did Todd or Tim or any other therapist come 12 on that trip? 13 A. I would say no. 14 Q. Do you remember how long you were gone for on that 15 trip? 16 A. We went to Yellowstone a lot. I don't even know 17 when that was. 18 Q. Next trip, number three, it says to Phoenix, 19 Arizona and the Grand Canyon. It says that you took this 20 trip in April 2003 again by bus. It says the adults were 21 Mark, you, Shayla and Trinity came along this time. Were 22 Todd or Tim or any other therapist on that trip? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Next trip Branson, Missouri in July of 2003. 25 Again by bus with the adults being Mark, you, and Ben DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 156 1 McQuivey. Were Todd, Tim or any other therapist on that 2 trip? 3 A. No. 4 Q. How old was Ben McQuivey at that point? Do you 5 know? 6 A. I think he's 21. 7 Q. Is he 21 right now or was he 21 then? If you 8 don't know that's fine. 9 A. No, now he's probably 25. 10 Q. Okay. Number five is a trip to Lake Powell in 11 October of 2003. You went by bus. You list the adults as 12 being Mark, you, Shayla and Trinity. Were Todd, Tim or any 13 other therapist on that trip? 14 A. Could have had them, but I'm not sure. 15 Q. You can't confirm or deny? 16 A. No, I can't. A lot of the Utah trips they would 17 meet us. 18 Q. Number six is a Western Caribbean cruise April of 19 2004. You took a bus to the point of departure and then 20 obviously you took a boat. It lists the adults as being 21 Mark, you, Trinity, Shayla, Susan Likes -- you spell that 22 L-I-K-E-S -- and Ben McQuivey. Did you bring any therapists 23 on the cruise? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Number seven Lake Powell in October of 2004. Did DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 157 1 you bring any therapists there to that trip? 2 A. Like I said, Utah trips I'm not sure about. 3 Q. Can you confirm or deny whether there was or was 4 not on that trip? 5 A. No, I can't. 6 Q. Number eight a trip to British Columbia in October 7 of 2005. Did you bring any therapists on that trip? 8 A. I couldn't tell you. I know that Ben has been up 9 there and a couple other of the supervisors. 10 Q. Right. But on the October of 2005 trip did you 11 bring any licensed therapists with you? 12 A. Not to my recollection. 13 Q. Number nine is the last one. A trip to Grand 14 Canyon, Mexico and Zions Park in April of 2005. Did you 15 bring any licensed therapists with you on that trip? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. Thank you. So if you didn't bring any 18 licensed therapists on these trips I'm assuming that there 19 was no individual therapy that's going on on these trips. 20 Is that correct? 21 A. It wasn't necessary. 22 Q. That was a yes or no. Was there any individual 23 therapy going on on these trips? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you inform the parents prior to leaving on DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 158 1 these trips that individual therapy would be suspended on 2 these trips? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You did? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Did you inform all the parents? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So before leaving for any of these trips you'd let 9 the parents know that there was going to be no therapy for 10 that month? 11 A. Yes. We had to ask for passports and all that 12 kind of stuff. 13 Q. Well, I mean, you don't need a passport for 14 Jackson Hole or Arizona or anything. 15 A. Well, we like to have their identification. 16 Q. Did you have identification as part of their file? 17 A. Most the time we had to submit letters to the 18 parents. We always had a newsletter that went out. 19 Q. Okay. So just to be clear on this point before 20 you would leave for an extended trip -- 21 A. Yes, we did. 22 Q. Before you'd leave for an extended trip your 23 policy was to inform all the parents -- 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. -- that their kids would not be receiving therapy? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 159 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Did any of the parents ever complain about that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who? 5 A. I don't remember. But it was minimal. 6 Q. Do you remember any of the plaintiffs' parents 7 complaining when they were told that their kid wouldn't be 8 receiving therapy? 9 A. I've got to remember who the parents were. 10 Q. Susan Beasley? 11 A. Shawn no. Susan absolutely no. 12 Q. Susan Schacherer? 13 A. Absolutely no. 14 Q. Patricia Sager? 15 A. Absolutely no. 16 Q. Who am I missing? Kleeberger parents? 17 A. Absolutely no. 18 Q. Erica Cira's mother, Mary Cira? 19 A. Nope. Absolutely none of them. 20 Q. Let's talk about confidentiality. Was the 21 information that the therapists discussed with the 22 individual student supposed to remain confidential? 23 A. It was remained confidential. 24 Q. Okay. How did it remain confidential? What do 25 you mean by that? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 160 1 A. What do you mean? 2 Q. What do you mean? I get to ask the questions, 3 Cheryl. 4 A. I know. Can you repeat the question. 5 Q. Right. When you say that the information remained 6 confidential what happened to the information? How did it 7 remain confidential? 8 A. It wasn't spoke about. 9 Q. Okay. You said earlier that the written therapy 10 logs were kept in Tim's office. Were those written therapy 11 logs ever discussed openly in a group therapy session or 12 anything like that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You said that you never reviewed those therapy 15 logs. Is that correct? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. Did you talk to Tim or Todd or any of the 18 individual therapists regarding their individual therapy 19 sessions? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did they tell you -- did they keep you informed as 22 to what the kids were telling them? 23 A. No. 24 Q. So you personally did not have access to the 25 information? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 161 1 A. It's private. 2 Q. Okay. But my question is did you personally have 3 access to the information that was discussed in those 4 individual therapy sessions? 5 A. First of all no. Second of all I don't care about 6 what's going on in that office. 7 Q. Prior to admission the students' parents would 8 fill out intake forms? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. TENNEY: Thank you, Phil. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. Sorry. 14 BY MR. TENNEY: 15 Q. When did you first start using those intake forms? 16 A. Ever since we've had it going in Utah. 17 Q. Did you use intake forms in Canada? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. But you did start using them at least by the Utah 20 period? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Would these intake forms require the parents to 23 divulge what medications their students were on? 24 A. I don't recall. I never really looked at them. 25 Q. Do you know who wrote the intake form? Who came DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 162 1 up with the form itself? 2 A. We hired someone to do our policy and procedures 3 manual and it's part of it. 4 Q. Would you review those intake forms? 5 A. Nope. 6 Q. Were those intake forms discussed in a staff 7 meeting or anything? 8 A. No. I wasn't interested in that part of the 9 program. 10 Q. Did you ever read a student's intake form? 11 A. No, I wouldn't think so. 12 Q. You can't think of a single time where you read a 13 student's intake form? 14 A. I really can't. 15 Q. Okay. 16 A. I could -- you know, I could have glanced at 17 something. I don't -- 18 Q. Okay. Group therapy -- did you offer group 19 therapy as part of your program? 20 A. Yes, of course. 21 Q. And what does that mean, group therapy? 22 A. Well, that you would have to ask the therapists. 23 Q. What does it mean to you? When you say that you 24 offered group therapy what are you saying you offered? 25 A. Once a month the therapist would have a group DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 163 1 therapy. They have different styles, the therapists do. 2 Q. Did that happen every month there was a group 3 therapy session? 4 A. Yes, with the therapist. 5 Q. Were they scheduled on a calendar? 6 A. No. It was scheduled according to when he wanted 7 them. 8 Q. Who would be invited to participate in the group 9 therapy session? 10 A. Everyone had to be there. 11 Q. So one therapist spoke -- say Tim Lowe would call 12 a group therapy session and all the students would come to 13 it? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Would you attend those group therapy sessions? 19 A. That's usually the only time I would get a break. 20 So a couple times. 21 Q. Did you offer any guidance to those therapists 22 regarding what methodology they should use in those group 23 therapy sessions? 24 A. Repeat your question. 25 Q. Did you offer any guidance to the therapists DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 164 1 regarding how they should conduct the group therapy 2 sessions? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you exercise any supervisory control of any 5 kind on those group therapy sessions? 6 A. Repeat your question. It's way too broad for me. 7 Q. Did you have any supervisory control over those 8 group therapy sessions at all? Did you, Cheryl Sudweeks, as 9 the vice president of Whitmore Academy or Who Am I Discovery 10 or whatever we're referring to that, did you have any say as 11 to how those were conducted? 12 A. No. It's the therapist's job. 13 Q. You said that you attended some of them, but you 14 generally skipped them. What percentage of the group 15 therapy sessions would you estimate that you actually 16 attended personally? 17 A. A third. 18 Q. Okay. Where were those group therapy sessions 19 conducted? 20 A. In the canyon, on the lake, in the group room, 21 wherever the therapist wanted to hold it, in the jump start 22 room, at the school. 23 Q. When you say the group room what room are you 24 talking about? 25 A. There's a group room at the mansion. And there's DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 165 1 a group room at the arena house. That when we do our 2 planning sessions or when we get together everyone joins up 3 in there. 4 Q. Which room in the mansion? I took a tour of the 5 mansion. You know this. 6 A. When you walk in there's two parlors. One on the 7 right and one on the left. 8 Q. As you're walking in you're saying your right and 9 your left? 10 A. Uh-huh. And you go through the first parlor on 11 the left and you go through those big doors. And that used 12 to be set up really nice for -- you could fit a lot of 13 people in there. 14 Q. The second room -- the second house you referred 15 to it as the arena house. Is that right? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. What's the address of that house? 18 A. 282 West. 19 Q. Is that the house that students have referred -- 20 is that the house that a lot of people have referred to as 21 the boys' house? I know that's a vague question but.... 22 A. That's the second time you've asked me that. 23 Q. Yeah. Have you ever heard that term the boys' 24 house? 25 A. I don't use it. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 166 1 Q. Have you ever heard that term? 2 A. Well, there was a time when the mansion was the 3 boys' house. Yeah, wherever the boys are is the boys' 4 house. 5 Q. Have you ever heard the arena house be referred to 6 as the boys' house? 7 A. At one time. 8 Q. Okay. But you refer to it as the arena house? 9 A. Most people do. 10 Q. So when we're talking to other students, for 11 example, if we say the arena house they're going to know 12 what we're talking about you think? 13 A. Absolutely. That's where the horses are. 14 Q. Right. Which room in the arena house was used for 15 group therapy? 16 A. The biggest room there. 17 Q. Is that the one where you've got the TV right now? 18 A. It's kind of hard to miss. Yeah. 19 Q. Did it used to be a garage? 20 A. Yeah, it did. 21 Q. Coming back to group therapy you said that it was 22 conducted once a month, it was conducted by a therapist, and 23 that you attended about 30 percent of them. Other than 24 those official group therapy sessions that were conducted by 25 the therapists did you hold meetings where all the students DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 167 1 attended to talk about issues that arose at the program? 2 A. Can you repeat that. 3 Q. Yeah. Other than the group therapy sessions that 4 were conducted by the therapists did you personally call 5 meetings that all the students had to come to where you 6 would talk about problems or anything? 7 A. Yeah. That's part of running a family. 8 Q. How often would you call those meetings? 9 A. As much as we needed to. 10 Q. We're going to talk about those right now. And 11 just so we don't have to bounce around with the terminology 12 what do you want me to refer to those meetings as? Should 13 we just call them the group meetings? 14 A. We called them RIP meetings. 15 Q. Is that an acronym? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. What does that stand for? 18 A. It stands from the Ridge Improvement Program. 19 Q. Okay. Where is that program? 20 A. That was on Sundays. So there was an actual date 21 set aside for the RIP planning meeting. 22 Q. Okay. Other than the scheduled meetings -- let me 23 just cut to the chase on this. I'm told that very often -- 24 sometimes a daily basis, sometimes more than once a day, 25 sometimes every other day or something -- that you would DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 168 1 call meetings where all the students would have to come 2 gather together in one of the group rooms and you would talk 3 about different things. Is that true? Did that happen? 4 A. Well, if it was convenient. When the kids are in 5 school you can't call everybody. 6 Q. Sure. 7 A. And when the kids are riding horses you can't call 8 everybody. But usually -- 9 Q. But when you were able to get the kids would that 10 happen routinely that you would call meetings and you would 11 get the kids together when you were able to? 12 A. Normally it would happen in the evening because 13 that's when they worked on their psychology. And these 14 meetings were really good for the kids. The kids are really 15 good mirrors for each other. 16 Q. Okay. We're going to talk about those meetings 17 right now. And for ease of reference I'm going to refer to 18 them as the group meetings. Does that sound fair? Do you 19 know what we're talking about? 20 A. I don't really want you to call them that. 21 Q. Okay. What do you want me to call them? 22 A. You can call them the RIP meetings if you want. 23 Q. We'll call them the RIP meetings then. 24 Okay. How often would these occur, these RIP 25 meetings? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 169 1 A. Well, remember we travel. 2 Q. That's true. 3 A. Remember we're in different places. A lot of 4 times we're where there's a lot of people and the kids get 5 excited. So you don't want to do it then. 6 They were called when necessary; and if there was 7 a learning moment; and if we needed to make plans for 8 something special that was coming up and follow through on, 9 you know, a Halloween party or whatever. 10 Q. Who had the authority to call them? 11 A. The kids would come to me if they had a problem 12 and see if it was okay. And then the program was broke up 13 into sometimes seven different groups. And each group had a 14 prefect. And the prefect if she had a problem with her 15 room -- there was a list of things that had to be done. If 16 someone didn't make their bed or somebody wasn't cooperating 17 or they weren't getting along, at night before they would go 18 to bed they would always have group with their prefect and 19 go over the things that they -- 20 Q. I'm not talking about the smaller meetings. I'm 21 talking about these meetings where you would get all the 22 kids together, these RIP meetings. How often would that 23 occur? 24 A. Twice a week besides Sunday. 25 Q. What's the earliest hour of the day that you ever DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 170 1 remember one of these occurring? 2 A. Mornings are really busy. We rarely had time to 3 do something like that in the morning. 4 Q. Do you ever recall having one of these meetings in 5 the morning? 6 A. We could have if there's new kids and there's big 7 problems or if the horses are out. 8 Q. What's the earliest you ever remember one 9 occurring? 10 A. Honestly I couldn't tell you. But it's pretty 11 hard to get the kids out of bed before 5:00. 12 Q. I understand. What's the latest in the day that 13 you ever recall one of these happening? Latest hour of the 14 day? 15 A. Late, but before midnight. 16 Q. Did you ever have to wake the kids up to have one 17 of these meetings? 18 A. The kids were woke up a couple of times when there 19 was something serious going on. 20 Q. Okay. What's the longest you ever recall one of 21 these meetings taking? 22 A. Taking place? 23 Q. Yeah. What's the longest period of time? In 24 other words, one meeting took X number of hours. Tell me 25 what X is. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 171 1 A. Well, the shorter the better because I was busy 2 24/7 with these kids anyway. 3 Q. That wasn't my question though. The question was 4 what's the longest? 5 A. In other words, I don't remember. 6 Q. You don't remember. Do you remember a RIP meeting 7 taking as long as four hours? 8 A. It could have been. 9 Q. Do you remember a RIP meeting lasting as long as 10 six hours? 11 A. Probably not. You can't keep kids with ADD in the 12 room for six hours. 13 Q. That's true. Do you remember one taking as long 14 as nine hours? 15 A. Absolutely not. 16 Q. There was never a meeting where all the students 17 were present that took longer than nine hours? 18 A. No. 19 Q. What was the average? I mean, can you give me an 20 average or is that even possible? What was the average 21 length of these meetings? 22 A. Ten minutes, 15 minutes. 23 Q. When they went longer than that -- 24 A. The RIP meetings of course, you know, would 25 take -- because we did our planning for the week. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 172 1 Q. Yeah. Did I understand you right that also you 2 would deal with problems during these meetings as well? 3 A. Yeah. 4 Q. You said the students would come to you and they 5 would complain about another student? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 Q. And you'd call a meeting to address that concern? 8 A. And I'd say save it for group. If it wasn't an 9 emergency, they'd save it. 10 Q. When you said save it for group you're talking 11 about the RIP meeting, right? 12 A. No, for the therapist. 13 Q. Okay. And these group meetings were the meetings 14 that were occurring once a month? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. If you were having an extended RIP meeting -- you 17 said that they may have lasted perhaps as long as five 18 hours. If you were having a RIP meeting that went past the 19 hour mark and a kid needed to go to the bathroom were they 20 allowed to leave? 21 A. Absolutely. 22 Q. If the kid needed to eat were they allowed to 23 leave to go get something to eat? 24 A. Believe me they get hungry. And we would make 25 food during group sometimes. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 173 1 Q. Did you ever have a meeting where students were 2 required to attend where a student was not allowed to leave 3 to go to the bathroom? 4 A. No, not to my knowledge. 5 Q. Did you ever have a meeting where the students 6 were required to attend where the students weren't allowed 7 to go eat if they wanted to? 8 A. The kids were always fed. 9 Q. Right. That wasn't my question though. My 10 question was did you ever have a meeting where all kids were 11 required to attend where they weren't allowed to leave to go 12 get something to eat? 13 A. No. 14 Q. That never happened? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Were the students allowed to talk to each other 17 during these meetings? 18 A. That's another one of those questions. You're 19 going to have to repeat it because of course they talked to 20 each other. That's what it was. 21 Q. It was an interactive meeting? 22 A. Yeah. 23 Q. Walk me through the process. You indicated that 24 sometimes these would occur because students were having 25 problems with each other. Walk me through what would happen DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 174 1 at this meeting if it was called to address a concern that a 2 student had. 3 A. It's hard. Eddie had a backpack. And he'd go 4 down to the storage room and he'd fill it full of food. And 5 then at night he'd go up in his room. And he was a prefect. 6 And all the guys -- 7 Q. Eddie's last name just so we're clear? 8 A. Hawkins. 9 Q. Okay. Keep going. 10 A. And all the guys would sit and eat. And I was 11 doing room checks before -- because they were supposed to be 12 in bed. And everyone was sitting in Eddie's room having 13 snacks. They were cooking hot dogs and stuff like that. I 14 can't remember how they said they cooked them. 15 Anyway, they said that all the kids do this. Then 16 whenever they get everyone involved the way to solve a 17 problem like that is you get everyone involved. And so we 18 would have everybody get together and resolve the issue. 19 Q. How would you resolve the issue? 20 A. By finding out if everyone was getting into the 21 food and sneaking it off like that. 22 Q. So would you conduct the session? Is that how 23 that would work? 24 A. If I was the one there. 25 Q. If you weren't there who would be conducting? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 175 1 A. If Jeff had issues out on the horses in the barn 2 and they had problems, then Trin would have to call group. 3 Q. Were there any rules against profanity at your 4 school? 5 A. One hundred percent. 6 Q. What was the rule? 7 A. You never. I mean, if you get caught cussing 8 you're in trouble. They make their consequences. 9 Q. The students -- strike that. 10 Were the students allowed to use profanity at your 11 program? 12 A. No. 13 Q. What would happen? What would the consequences be 14 if you heard a student using profanity? 15 A. Well, it's common. So it's not a consequence that 16 they can't -- our idea is to teach them new habits and new 17 choices and then let them govern themselves. 18 Q. So what would the consequences be if you heard a 19 student use a cuss word? 20 A. On these Sunday RIP meetings they would get 21 together in their groups. And one of the things they'd go 22 over -- they went over 10 or 15 different things -- were the 23 choices and consequences. 24 And that group -- seven kids in a group -- they 25 would go over, okay, cussing, not doing your dishes, not DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 176 1 being up on time. And they would put a consequence with 2 each one of the rules broken. 3 Q. Give me an example so I can understand what you're 4 talking about. What would be a typical consequence for 5 doing something like swearing? 6 A. What? 7 Q. Give me an example. What would be a typical 8 consequence if a kid were caught swearing? Just so I have 9 some sense of what you're talking about. 10 A. They have 20 seconds to yell back 20 alternative 11 words. 12 Q. That's hard. 13 A. That's really hard. But the next time they cuss 14 they remember what they could have said. 15 Q. During any of your RIP meetings, your group 16 therapy sessions that you attended -- during any meeting 17 that you attended where the students were all present do you 18 ever remember students swearing at each other? 19 A. Oh, yeah. 20 Q. How often would that occur? 21 A. Once in a while. 22 Q. Once in a while meaning how often? 23 A. Not really as much as you might think. The kids 24 didn't swear all that much. 25 Q. If you ever heard a student swearing at another DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 177 1 student during a group meeting of any kind would you rebuke 2 them for that? 3 A. I wouldn't have to. 4 Q. Why? 5 A. Because when we call a group like that we pick 6 different prefects to run it. And they call the kids when 7 they raise their hands. And they pretty much are in charge 8 so that they can -- I would just be there to supervise. 9 Q. So in your memory of these meetings when students 10 swore at each other the prefect is expected to handle it? 11 A. Uh-huh. Yes. 12 Q. According to your memory did the prefects handle 13 it? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They told the offending student to not swear 16 anymore? 17 A. No. They would say 20 alternative words. 18 Q. Were the students required to apologize to each 19 other if they cussed each other out? 20 A. Absolutely. 21 Q. So did you make sure that happened, these 22 apologies happened? 23 A. I didn't really have to. Our place the kids 24 respected each other. 25 Q. So the kids always apologized then? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 178 1 A. They did. They had a good relationship. 2 Q. Did you ever swear at any students? 3 A. I've been accused of that -- 4 Q. That wasn't my question though. 5 A. -- through this Fornits thing. But I don't think 6 so. 7 Q. You don't remember ever swearing at a student? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What about non -- 10 A. Nonswearing freaking? 11 Q. Yeah. Did you ever call a kid bad names that were 12 not necessarily swear words? Did you ever call a student a 13 whore? 14 A. No, I would never call a student a whore. 15 Q. Did you ever call a student -- and I know this is 16 a swear word. But did you ever call a student a bitch? 17 A. No, I would never call a student a bitch. 18 Q. So, for example, you never called Leah Schacherer 19 a bitch? 20 A. I told Leah Schacherer that she acted like a 21 bitch. 22 Q. How is that different than calling her a bitch? 23 A. A lot different. 24 Q. How? 25 A. It was when she had just got back. And she was DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 179 1 treating the girls really, really bad. And the kids had 2 called her a "B". And she said, It's not right that they do 3 this. And I said, Then you shouldn't act like a bitch. But 4 if I say that word it's a pretty big deal. 5 Q. Yeah. So is that the only time you can remember 6 using the word bitch in front of the kids? 7 A. I mean, you brought it up. I wouldn't have 8 remembered it if you hadn't. Actually, yes. 9 Q. And you don't remember ever calling a student a 10 whore. Is that right? 11 A. No, I don't. 12 Q. Do you remember ever saying a student acted like a 13 whore? 14 A. You have to -- okay. I'll answer you directly. 15 Q. Please. 16 A. Okay. Phrase it directly. 17 Q. I mean, do you ever remember -- I asked if you 18 ever called a kid a whore. You said no. And I'm asking 19 just to make sure that we've covered our bases like we did 20 with the word bitch. I mean, did you ever say anything like 21 you're acting like a whore? Did you ever imply that a 22 student was somehow a whore? 23 A. Well, we had an instance where -- I can't remember 24 who it was. Anyway, she had gone home for Christmas and she 25 got pregnant. And it was the kids again. And they were all DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 180 1 talking, You're just a whore. And she was all mad, I'm not 2 a whore. And then I said something like you shouldn't act 3 like a whore. She's a good friend of mine. 4 Q. Did you tell the kids not to call her a whore? 5 A. Of course. 6 Q. Did you make them apologize to her for calling her 7 a whore? 8 A. Of course. 9 Q. Did you ever refer to a student as a nigger? 10 A. Never. 11 Q. Did you ever refer to a student as a Chink? 12 A. Never. What do you mean? I don't get it. 13 Q. I mean did you ever call a student a Chink? 14 That's what I mean. 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever refer to a student as a gook? 17 A. I don't even know what a gook is. 18 Q. Did you ever refer to Lindsey Kleeberger, for 19 example, as a Chink? 20 A. I wouldn't do that. 21 Q. Okay. Punishment -- did you have policies 22 regarding punishment that were permissible at The Whitmore 23 Academy? 24 A. Repeat. 25 Q. Did you have policies regarding what punishment DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 181 1 was appropriate at your programs? 2 A. Yes. We have a policy and procedures manual, 3 which explains what the norm would be in the case of a 4 punishment. But like I said to you the kids make up their 5 own consequences. And then we go through and okay it. 6 Q. Okay. Let's go ahead and get that on the record. 7 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 28 was marked 8 for identification.) 9 BY MR. TENNEY: 10 Q. Ms. Sudweeks, I'm handing you what's been marked 11 as Exhibit No. 28. Do you recognize this document? Take a 12 minute to look through it if you need. 13 A. It's the policy and procedures manual. 14 Q. Is that the document you were referring to 15 earlier? 16 A. That's what it says on here. 17 Q. So this is that document? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. When was this written? 20 A. I couldn't tell you. I don't know. 21 Q. Was it written before 2000? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Did you have this when you were at -- 24 A. I don't know. 25 Q. In Canada? Do you ever recall using this DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 182 1 document? 2 A. I recall going through it. 3 Q. When do you recall going through it? 4 A. I don't know. 5 Q. Was this a document that was followed by the staff 6 at The Whitmore Academy? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So this was binding upon the staff? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did that include you? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. We'll move off that. I'll show you another 13 exhibit. 14 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit No. 29 was marked 15 for identification.) 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. Ms. Sudweeks, I'm handing you what's been marked 18 as Exhibit No. 29. You'll see that there's actually three 19 different sheets of paper that are attached to this. The 20 first one is titled responsibility packet. The second one 21 is entitled initiative packet. And the third one is 22 entitled attitude packet. Did I get that right? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. What are these documents? 25 A. They're very effective. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 183 1 Q. What are they? Before we get into the 2 effectiveness of them what are they? 3 A. They are some tools that we used to help the kids 4 become accountable for their actions. 5 Q. Do you recall when these were written? 6 A. I don't, no. 7 Q. I note at the bottom of the first sheet, the 8 responsibility packet, has a 1998 copyright to it. Do you 9 know if you got this in 1998 or 1999? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Okay. How were these documents used? What role 12 did they play in your program? 13 A. Well, like you said what would happen in group if 14 they weren't respectful and they kept cussing. Remember? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. And that has a lot to do with attitude. So it's 17 time for an attitude packet. 18 Q. So you would pull out this sheet of paper that's 19 entitled attitude packet? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. And you'd give it to the student if they were 22 having an attitude problem? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. It says here at the top -- it gives an instruction 25 that says to write out all the questions and answer each in DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 184 1 complete sentences. Would you make the student do that? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. Where would you keep their answers? 4 A. In a file. 5 Q. Do you still have those files? 6 A. Everything we ever had has been moved. 7 Q. Moved to where? 8 A. Everywhere. 9 Q. Everything you have has been moved everywhere? 10 A. Yeah. We're no longer at the mansion and we're no 11 longer at the boys' house. And the school -- 12 Q. By boys' house you mean the arena house? 13 A. Yes. We're no longer at the -- we have nothing. 14 Q. Where are these files? Do you have a storage shed 15 somewhere where you keep these? 16 A. We hired some people to move our things. And a 17 lot of it ended up in Mexico and was flooded away. And the 18 other stuff we don't know where it is. 19 Q. How did your files end up in Mexico? 20 A. I took a lot with us this year. I wanted to go 21 through and -- 22 Q. Right. So just to make sure I'm clear on this 23 whenever a student would have an attitude problem you'd pull 24 out the attitude packet and give it to them. 25 A. We didn't use the attitude packet as much as the DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 185 1 responsibility packet. 2 Q. How often would you use the responsibility packet? 3 A. When kids come to the -- nevermind. I'm going to 4 do this straight here. I'm just learning here. 5 They would use it probably -- some kids used it 6 once a month for the whole time they were there. Other kids 7 never had to use it. It depended on how responsible they 8 were. 9 Q. Let's walk through the plaintiffs real briefly. 10 And I'm going to ask you to tell me if you remember any of 11 these packets ever -- 12 A. I don't think I could answer those. 13 MR. FERGUSON: Well, let him ask the question. 14 BY MR. TENNEY: 15 Q. We'll see what we can get. Do you recall Justin 16 Beasley ever being given any of these three packets? 17 And to make this line of questioning more 18 simple by -- 19 A. Do you want yes and no? 20 Q. Yeah. When I say the packets I'm referring to 21 either the responsibility packet, the initiative packet or 22 the attitude packet. So let's walk through them. Do you 23 recall Justin Beasley ever receiving any of these three 24 packets? 25 A. I do not. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 186 1 Q. Do you recall Justin Busa ever receiving any of 2 these three packets? 3 A. I do not. 4 Q. Erica Cira? 5 A. I do not. 6 Q. Joey Hamson? 7 A. I do not. 8 Q. Lindsey Kleeberger? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Which ones? 11 A. She had issues with responsibility and attitude 12 mostly. So probably those two. 13 Q. So you recall having given her these? 14 A. I said probably. 15 Q. You don't have any specific memory of it? 16 A. No, I don't. 17 Q. Shawn Snider? 18 A. Probably. 19 Q. Do you have any specific memory of him getting any 20 of these three packets? 21 A. He had a hard time disciplining himself with 22 school. So I would imagine that was -- 23 Q. But do you have any specific memory of him 24 receiving any of these three packets? 25 A. I told you I have a bad memory. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 187 1 Q. I'm aware of that. Leah Schacherer do you 2 remember her receiving any of these three packets? 3 A. Maybe. She was a very responsible person, but she 4 was in trouble quite a few times. And it helped her 5 recognize some of the things that she had done. 6 Q. So you do have specific memory then of Leah 7 receiving these packets? 8 A. No, I do not. But I would imagine she got this 9 one. 10 Q. This one meaning which of the three? 11 A. The responsibility. 12 Q. Jenna Sager? 13 A. Out of all of them probably Jenna had everything. 14 Q. Jenna had some problems? 15 A. Well, she had discipline problems. 16 Q. We'll get into that probably tomorrow. 17 Let me refer you back to the document that's 18 marked as Exhibit No. 26. This is the interrogatory 19 answers. So if you want to go ahead and pull out your copy 20 I'm going to ask you a question about that. 21 If when you get there you could turn to page four 22 of that document. I'll be referring to the answer to 23 Interrogatory No. 5. So tell me when you're there. Are you 24 on page four? 25 A. Uh-huh. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 188 1 Q. Okay. The question that we asked in Interrogatory 2 No. 5 was for you to, "Describe any events that you are 3 aware of during the years 2000 through the present in which 4 a student was pushed, slapped, kicked, hit, or otherwise 5 physically assaulted by another student, a defendant, or by 6 an employee of the defendants." 7 The answer -- if you shoot down a few sentences to 8 the answer at the middle of that paragraph there's a 9 sentence beginning with the word subject to. Do you see 10 where I am three lines down in the answer? 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Are you with me? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Okay. I'm going to read you a couple sentences 15 there and then ask you a couple of questions about your 16 memory of this. It says that, "Subject to, and without 17 waiving, those objections, Whitmore states that 18 'altercations' were few. There were occasions where one 19 student would push or hit another, and usually involved 20 students Rob Porritz, Tony Ash, and Mike Rodebush. 21 Separation of the parties was part of the corrective action. 22 Further, the 'aggressor' would receive a 'responsibility 23 packet' in which the aggressor would address, through a 24 series of 25 questions, his or her actions, motives, 25 ramifications, and the like." Did I read that right? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 189 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. Okay. When it says there that the aggressor in an 3 altercation would receive the responsibility packet are we 4 talking about the responsibility packet in Exhibit No. 29? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So then to make sure I understand this response 7 clearly whenever you would be made aware of violence 8 occurring between the students, the students involved in the 9 violence would receive a responsibility packet. Is that 10 right? 11 A. Not always. 12 Q. Not always. So there were instances of violence 13 in which the student would not receive a responsibility 14 packet. Is that right? 15 A. To tell you the truth I don't remember instances 16 of violence like you're describing here. 17 Q. You don't remember any instances of violence? 18 A. I remember vague memories. 19 Q. Tell me about your vague memories. Let's go ahead 20 and talk about that. 21 A. Rob had anger issues. 22 Q. Rob Porritz? 23 A. Uh-huh. And he was a bully when he first came, 24 but the boys respected him. And he did things behind our 25 backs. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 190 1 Q. Like what? 2 A. Just bully them. He knew he would be in trouble 3 if he was physical with them. So I know of nothing 4 physical. 5 Q. Are you aware of any instance in which Rob Porritz 6 was physical with another student? 7 A. Well, I was just going to tell you the one time 8 that I do remember he was physical with one of his 9 roommates. 10 Q. Who? 11 A. Nick. 12 Q. Which Nick? 13 A. I don't remember his last name. He had only been 14 there for like a week and his mom was there. 15 Q. Where was Nick from? Can you help me identify 16 him? 17 A. I think he was from Washington, D.C. 18 Q. So you remember Rob being physical. What do you 19 remember him doing? 20 A. Let me think. It was around Christmastime. He 21 was mad at himself. He didn't really -- I mean, he wasn't 22 that physical. Like he didn't -- the kid wasn't mad at him. 23 But I was mad at him. 24 Q. You were mad at Rob? 25 A. Yeah. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 191 1 Q. Before we get to your reaction what do you 2 remember Rob having done? 3 A. Because I was mad at him he threw his computer out 4 the window. 5 Q. You said he was physical with another student 6 though -- with Nick? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. What did he do to Nick? 9 A. To tell you the truth I don't remember. It wasn't 10 a big thing so I don't remember. He got in a lot of 11 trouble. 12 Q. What did he get in trouble for? 13 A. Because you can't touch other kids. 14 Q. How did he touch Nick? What did he -- 15 A. He probably pushed him or something. 16 Q. Did Nick tell you this or did you see it or how 17 were you made aware of it? 18 A. Yeah, Nick went and told Jeff who is the horse 19 guy. And Jeff went up and had a confrontation with Rob and 20 took Nick with him. And so Rob was in his bedroom. And I 21 went up to talk to Rob. And Rob got mad at himself and 22 threw his computer through the window. 23 Q. Did you have a group on Rob as a result of that? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. What was the result of that group? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 192 1 A. Rob did really well after that. He had to do a 2 responsibility packet. And he had to pay for the window. 3 And he had to apologize to Nick, which he didn't like 4 apologizing. And he had to call Nick's parents too. 5 Q. I thought you said Nick's mom was there? 6 A. Yeah. He had to call her at her hotel. 7 Q. Other than that instance do you remember any other 8 instances in which a student was physically violent with 9 another student? 10 A. Yeah, I do. 11 Q. Which one? 12 A. We were having group on Lindsey Kleeberger. She 13 had stole some money. And she admitted that she stole the 14 money, but it wasn't until like an hour before we had to 15 leave. We had tickets to the Savior of the World. 16 Q. Let me tell you what let me stop you there. We 17 will talk at length about that instance tomorrow, okay. 18 Other than that instance -- I'm going to want to 19 go through that in full detail obviously. Other than the 20 instance with Lindsey Kleeberger and the group and other 21 than the instance in which Rob touched Nick from Washington, 22 D.C. can you think of any other instances in which a student 23 was physically violent with another student? 24 A. Yeah, I can. Casey. 25 Q. Casey Willis? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 193 1 A. Casey Willis. She, Hannah and Camille ran away. 2 And we spent a couple hours looking for them. And we had to 3 cancel our trip to Seven Peaks. 4 Q. When was this? 5 A. Back in the spring a couple years ago. 6 And they found the kids and they brought them 7 back. And we had a meeting. And Casey was really mad 8 because her and Hannah were good friends. So she went up to 9 her and she slapped her. 10 Q. And were you there? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. You observed this? 13 A. Yeah. I am the one that pulled Casey off of her. 14 Q. What punishment did Casey receive? 15 A. She couldn't go with us the rest of that week, and 16 she had to do a responsibility packet, and she had to 17 apologize. 18 Q. Did you inform Casey's parents that this had 19 happened? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Who was it again you said she slapped? Was it 22 Hannah you said? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Did you inform Hannah's parents? 25 A. Well, of course. They were looking for her too. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 194 1 Q. Sure. Did you inform them that she had been 2 slapped by Casey Willis? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. So we've got Rob and Nick and their altercation. 5 We've got the Lindsey Kleeberger group, which we'll talk 6 about tomorrow. And the Casey Willis and Hannah episode. 7 Can you think of any other episodes in which 8 students were violent with one another? 9 A. Actually, no. 10 Q. That's it? 11 A. That's a lot of years. 12 Q. Just those three? 13 A. Let me think. I could probably think of something 14 if I tried hard enough. We had some twins that lived with 15 us. 16 Q. What were their names? 17 A. Amy and Ashee. And she -- 18 Q. Ashee, A-S-H-E-E? 19 A. Yeah. Cute little blonde girls. They were 20 violent with each. It was a twin thing. I never was there. 21 I never observed it. But I heard that when they'd go to bed 22 they would always fight. 23 Q. So Rob Porritz I think you said earlier that he 24 had a reputation that he was a bit of a bully? 25 A. He was. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 195 1 Q. So even though he had this reputation as being a 2 bully the only instance of violence that you were ever made 3 aware of was this one where he touched Nick from Washington, 4 D.C. Is that right? 5 A. That's all I can remember. 6 Q. So his reputation was more that he was just a 7 tough guy without any -- 8 A. He tried to be. And it only lasted a couple 9 months and then he became everybody's good friend. 10 Q. Did you ever hear a rumor that he had killed 11 somebody back in Baltimore? 12 A. He tried to tell people that when he first came. 13 And so I called his parents. And it was just -- he was 14 trying to be tough. 15 Q. So you checked that out with parents? 16 A. Yeah. They checked with the police and 17 everything. There was a lot of kids who would do that. 18 Q. Did you ever slap another student personally? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you ever push a student? 21 A. No, I didn't. 22 Q. Did you ever punch a student? 23 A. I know I can't. I mean, if I did I -- no, I did 24 not punch a student. 25 Q. Did you ever kick a student? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 196 1 A. Probably not, but that would be tempting. 2 Q. But you don't remember ever kicking a student? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever throw anything at a student? 5 A. Yeah. 6 Q. What did you throw at whom? 7 A. I think we were having group outside in the fire 8 pit. And one of the boys wouldn't keep his hands off one of 9 the girls. I don't remember which one. And I threw the 10 ball at him. 11 Q. Did you ever throw any books at a student? 12 A. Not that I recall. 13 Q. Do you recall ever throwing books at Leah 14 Schacherer? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever spit at another student? 17 A. No. I've been spit at a lot. 18 Q. Who spit at you? 19 A. Leah Schacherer. 20 Q. When did she spit at you? 21 A. About every time that she came home and had done 22 something wrong and she was yelling at me. That's one of 23 her things she does. 24 Q. Did you ever inform her parents that she had spit 25 at you? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 197 1 A. Her mother informed us that she spit at her too. 2 Q. Right, but that wasn't the question. Did you ever 3 inform Leah's parents that she had spit at you? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. When? 6 A. In our weekly -- we have a weekly PPI, personal 7 progress interview. And we would write it in the PPI. 8 Q. Was the PPI with her parents? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. So it was a phone PPI? 11 A. No. Well, sometimes it was a phone PPI if we were 12 on the road. But normally it was done by e-mail. 13 Q. So you e-mailed Leah's mother telling her that 14 Leah had spit at you? 15 A. Not me in particular. But whoever was her 16 prefect. 17 Q. Do you still have records of all the e-mails 18 you've sent? 19 A. We used to. But somebody trashed our web site -- 20 one of your clients. 21 Q. Do you have proof that one of my clients trashed 22 your web site? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What proof is that? 25 A. I can't tell you right now. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 198 1 Q. I'm asking you under oath what proof do you have 2 that one of my clients trashed your web site? 3 A. One of the students was contacted by Joyce Harris. 4 Q. Which student was contacted by Joyce Harris? 5 A. Chris. 6 Q. Chris Gentile? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What did Joyce tell Chris? 9 A. To trash it. She hired some professional to come 10 in and break into our web site. 11 And then we had a man who sat out in front of the 12 mansion who was breaking into our -- could get into our 13 e-mails. And that's where they got all the names and stuff. 14 Q. How do you know -- who was this man? 15 A. The Nephi City Police knows, but they never told 16 us. 17 Q. Did you report him to the Nephi City Police? 18 A. Yes, we did. 19 Q. Was this man ever charged to the best of your 20 knowledge? 21 A. The Nephi City Police does not talk to us much. 22 They do not answer our phone calls. 23 Q. So your proof for your allegation that one of my 24 clients has destroyed your computers -- 25 MR. FERGUSON: Web site. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 199 1 BY MR. TENNEY: 2 Q. Your web site is that Joyce Harris, who you're 3 aware is no longer one of my clients, told Chris Gentile 4 that that had happened? Is that the extent of your proof? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Do you have any independent verification of that 7 other than Chris Gentile's story? 8 A. From his mother. 9 Q. You don't have any hard proof? 10 A. She does. 11 Q. Who does? 12 A. His mother. 13 Q. Has she ever given it to you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Have you ever asked for it? 16 A. I did. And I had to sign a document that I 17 wouldn't sue Chris because he helped her out. 18 Q. Did she give it to you after you signed that 19 document? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Why didn't she give it to you if you signed the 22 document? 23 A. Because time has gone by. 24 Q. You've never asked for it since? 25 A. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 200 1 Q. Have you ever hired an investigator to look into 2 who trashed your web site? 3 A. I don't think so. 4 Q. Do you know if the police have ever come over and 5 looked at your computers to try to figure this out? 6 A. Yeah, we've asked them to. 7 Q. Have they ever done so? 8 A. Like I said, we don't get a lot of response from 9 the Nephi City Police. 10 Q. So the sum total of the evidence that Joyce Harris 11 hired somebody to trash your web site is that she allegedly 12 told Chris Gentile this. Is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. FERGUSON: Can we take a break. 15 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. Before I move off the subject let's just go ahead 18 and clear this up while we're here. We just talked about 19 Joyce Harris having allegedly trashed your web site. Are 20 you aware of -- do you have any evidence that any of the 21 plaintiffs have interfered with your computers in any other 22 way? And by plaintiffs I mean all eight family groups 23 A. No, I don't have any other evidence. 24 Q. You said before that you had gotten death threats 25 from the plaintiffs. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 201 1 A. We still are. 2 Q. From which plaintiffs are you getting -- 3 A. I mean, I don't know which ones. I didn't mean 4 plaintiffs. But we're getting death threats now. 5 Q. I'm going to be very specific here and I want you 6 to do your best to give me your specific answer. Do you 7 have any evidence that any of my clients are sending you 8 messages of any kind? 9 A. Well, there's one on the Internet that's -- and 10 there's no evidence. That supposedly is coming from your 11 client. 12 Q. Which client? 13 A. Joey's dad. 14 Q. Are talking about Tim Hamson? 15 A. Yeah. 16 Q. What does that message say? 17 A. Do you have it somebody? It's very bad. I'll 18 bring it tomorrow if you'd like. 19 MR. FERGUSON: Give him your best recollection. 20 THE WITNESS: It says that the judge was nice on 21 you, but other people aren't going to let you go and live. 22 BY MR. TENNEY: 23 Q. I'm going to officially request that you bring 24 that with you tomorrow if you have it with you. 25 A. I have it on my computer. Somebody sent it to me. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 202 1 I don't go to Fornits. 2 Q. Could you please bring that with you tomorrow? 3 A. Yes. 4 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 5 held.) 6 BY MR. TENNEY: 7 Q. So we were talking about postings that were on an 8 Internet web site. Do you have any other evidence that any 9 of the plaintiffs in this case have actually interfered with 10 your computers, your e-mail, your hard drives, anything? 11 A. No, I don't have evidence. But I could get it. 12 Q. What do you mean you could get it? 13 A. I just have to decide if I want to do something 14 like that. I would prefer not to go through this. 15 Q. We're here and this is what we're doing. Have 16 your computers been tampered with that you're aware of? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How? 19 A. I have three kids that are very, very good on 20 computers. They're able to track IP addresses and -- 21 Q. Right. But what tampering has occurred with your 22 computers? 23 A. They've gotten into our files and taken the kids' 24 addresses to get a hold of other kids to send e-mails to try 25 and slander and defame us. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 203 1 Q. Who is they? 2 A. I couldn't tell you that. But it comes from Joyce 3 Harris. 4 Q. You're aware that Joyce Harris is no longer 5 affiliated with this suit. Is that correct? 6 A. But she's very much affiliated with this whole 7 issue still. 8 Q. Right. You're aware that she withdrew from this 9 suit I believe six months ago, eight months ago? Are you 10 aware of that? 11 A. Uh-huh. But she's still fighting. 12 Q. Let's move on to a different subject. Did you 13 maintain a particular student to staff ratio at your 14 program? 15 A. Yes, we did. 16 Q. Did it change over time or was it a consistent 17 ratio? 18 A. It was as consistent as you can be in a situation 19 like kids moving and going and coming. 20 Q. What was the ratio that you shot for? 21 A. Well, for the boarding school we tried to keep it 22 eight to one. 23 Q. What about for the RTC? 24 A. That changed. They made new law. We just went 25 with the law on that. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 204 1 Q. Do you have a sense of what that was? 2 A. I really don't. 3 Q. Did you have a night watchman? 4 A. Yes, we did. 5 Q. Who? 6 A. Ben. That was Ben's. 7 Q. Ben McQuivey? 8 A. Uh-huh. And I did it sometimes. 9 Q. What did his duties involve as the night watchman? 10 A. He had a list of things he had to go over and 11 check. 12 Q. Was he there every night? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Was he there all night every night? 15 A. For a long time. And then when he wasn't there 16 then we'd have Steven would have his turn or Shayla. It 17 would change -- the staff would. 18 Q. Was it generally the rule that there was always 19 somebody there awake all night to keep an eye on things? 20 A. Yeah. We had a staff -- night staff. 21 Q. Okay. Did you have any restrictions on what 22 personal belongings the kids were able to have with them? 23 A. Not like the State. But, yes, we did. 24 Q. Either through your own policies or through the 25 State's policies that were imposed upon you did you have DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 205 1 restrictions on what the kids could have? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What restrictions? 4 A. Guns, knives. 5 Q. No guns? No knives? 6 A. Certain CD's. 7 Q. Which CD's? 8 A. That you'd cut your wrist and watch the blood 9 drain out. 10 Q. You mean CD's? You'd cut your wrist with the 11 CD's? 12 A. No. The CD's would tell you how to do it. 13 Q. Who were the groups? 14 A. I'd have to tell you later. 15 Q. Tell me this, did any of the plaintiffs have any 16 of those CD's? Do you remember any of the plaintiffs having 17 those? 18 A. Absolutely. 19 Q. Which ones? 20 A. Anneliese. 21 Q. Who? 22 A. Anneliese. 23 Q. Now, she's not one of the plaintiffs though. 24 A. Okay. Hold on then. Leah one time downloaded 25 those CD's to give to the other kids. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 206 1 Q. Did you inventory their music? Is that what we're 2 talking about. Did you go through their music as they came 3 to your program? 4 A. We had a room check. And, yes, we always went 5 through all their things when they came. 6 Q. Just to be clear students were not allowed to have 7 pocket knives. Is that right? 8 A. They could have the pocket knives -- the Swiss 9 Army knives like when we went camping and stuff. But they 10 couldn't have others. 11 Q. Were they allowed to have butterfly knives? Do 12 you know what a butterfly knife is? 13 A. I do know what a butterfly knife is. No, they 14 aren't allowed to have a butterfly knife. 15 There was an instance though where we went to 16 Market Square. And it was a good kid, wasn't it? 17 Q. Where is Market Square? 18 A. In Salt Lake. 19 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 20 held.) 21 THE WITNESS: Butterfly knives were really cheap. 22 And the boy asked Mark if he could buy some knives. And he 23 was trustworthy and Mark said that he could. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. When was this? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 207 1 A. Maybe a couple years ago. I can't remember. But 2 when we found out it was butterfly knives we had to 3 confiscate. 4 Q. Was J.C. Riley involved in that? 5 A. Yeah, that's when it was. 6 Q. So that was the time frame that Justin Busa was 7 there? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. So you were not with them when they bought the 10 butterfly knives. Is that right? 11 A. We were with them, but we weren't standing there 12 with them. 13 Q. So you weren't aware that they had bought the 14 butterfly knives? 15 A. Yeah, they told us they were knives -- Swiss 16 knives. 17 Q. So you actually saw them as they were purchasing 18 them? 19 A. No. They just came and asked us if they could buy 20 some knives -- Swiss Army knives. They lied. 21 Q. Okay. And then you saw them afterwards? 22 A. And then when we found them we had to confiscate 23 them. 24 Q. Okay. Were the students allowed to have lighters? 25 A. Yes, when we were camping. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 208 1 Q. When you weren't camping where were the lighters? 2 A. Usually you could never find any. But if we had 3 any lighters Mark always had them. 4 Q. Firearms -- were there firearms in the Whitmore 5 mansion? 6 A. No, sir. 7 Q. What about the boys' house or the arena house were 8 there firearms? 9 A. No. The only place that Mark has his hunting guns 10 is in the hangar. 11 Q. There's been allegations in the depositions -- and 12 forgive me. I cannot remember which deposition it was -- 13 where a student talked about that there was a rifle in the 14 boys' house. Was there a rifle in the boys' house? 15 A. Not that I'm aware of. But when it comes to guns 16 you'll have to talk to Mark. 17 Q. Yeah, we'll go through this. I'm assuming there 18 were kitchen knives in both the mansion and the arena house? 19 A. Yes, there was. 20 Q. Did you make any effort to secure the kitchen 21 knives? 22 A. Yes, we did. 23 Q. What did you do to secure them? 24 A. They were hid. 25 Q. How were they hid? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 209 1 A. We had to hide them. I can't remember. But they 2 had to have permission to get a kitchen knife or else be 3 part of the kitchen crew. 4 Q. You can't remember where the kitchen knives were 5 hid? 6 A. I can't. It's not during a time that I was 7 involved. I just remember I was looking for knives and I 8 couldn't get them. 9 Q. I'm talking about any time during 2000 to the 10 present where were kitchen knives? 11 A. They were hid. 12 Q. You don't remember where the kitchen knives were 13 at any point in the last six years? 14 A. No. I wasn't the one that was in charge. 15 Q. Did you ever do any cooking? 16 A. Yeah. That's when I couldn't find the knife. 17 Q. That one time that you did the cooking? 18 A. Well, a couple times probably. I don't know. 19 Q. So whenever you did the cooking you couldn't find 20 the kitchen knives? 21 A. Well, I didn't always need kitchen knives. 22 Q. Okay. Was there an ice pick at the Whitmore 23 mansion? 24 A. I couldn't tell you. There was everything at the 25 Whitmore. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 210 1 Q. Pardon me? 2 A. There seems to be everything there. 3 Q. Do you have any training in CPR? 4 A. Yes, I do. I have to have first-aid and CPR in 5 order to work under the license. 6 Q. When did you receive your CPR and first aid 7 training? 8 A. Every year since we were licensed. 9 Q. Who did you receive that training from? 10 A. Provo. 11 Q. Provo City? 12 A. I don't even know. We'd have to drive to Provo 13 and go to a class. One time we did it in Nephi. But all of 14 us -- any of the staff that worked had to have training. 15 Q. Was that a requirement for all of the staff? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. TENNEY: 20 Q. So the McQuiveys, for example -- Ben McQuivey did 21 he have CPR training? 22 A. He had to. 23 Q. What about the therapists, Tim and Todd? 24 A. They had to too. 25 Q. Okay. Did you ever take the students' shoes away DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 211 1 from them? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. For what? 4 A. They usually lost them though. 5 Q. When you took them away what reasons did you take 6 their shoes away? 7 A. If we knew that -- if we had evidence that they 8 were running away. If we took their shoes away from them -- 9 it only happened once or twice -- they more than likely 10 didn't go. 11 Q. On those one or two occasions who do you remember 12 taking shoes away from? 13 A. Shane Haley. 14 Q. And he was there if I remember right 2000, 2001. 15 Is that right? 16 A. With Justin. And Justin -- 17 Q. Justin Busa or Beasley? 18 A. Beasley. And Dan and Sky. 19 Q. Those are the only kids you remember taking shoes 20 away from? 21 A. Yeah. 22 Q. Did you ever take Joey Hamson's shoes away from 23 him? 24 A. I didn't, but somebody could have. Or maybe I 25 did. I don't know. Joey was a handful. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 212 1 Q. We'll discuss him tomorrow. Did you ever force 2 the students to spend time outside without any clothing on 3 as punishment? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you ever force them to spend any time outside 6 with only partially clothed as punishment? Make them go 7 outside just in their boxers or something? 8 A. I never forced anybody to do that. 9 Q. Were you ever aware of a student spending time 10 outside partially clothed as punishment? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Who? 13 A. Justin. 14 Q. Which Justin? 15 A. Beasley. 16 Q. When and what were the circumstances? 17 A. The kids were playing truth or dare. And he 18 thought it would be funny if you had to get down in your 19 skivvies and jump off the porch in the snow. And it came 20 back on him so he did it. But he thought it was funny. 21 Q. Were you there when that happened? 22 A. I was there. But I didn't know what was going on 23 until it happened. 24 Q. Were you in the room? 25 A. Uh-huh. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 213 1 Q. Which room was that? 2 A. It was at the cabin. 3 Q. So you were in the room in the cabin where they 4 were -- 5 A. Well, I was getting beds made. 6 Q. Were you playing truth or dare with them? 7 A. I don't usually play truth or dare with the kids. 8 It's kind of scary. 9 Q. But on that occasion were you playing truth or 10 dare with them? 11 A. I don't think so. 12 Q. Did you ever play truth or dare with the kids? 13 A. I did. 14 Q. How often? 15 A. Maybe a total of five minutes. 16 Q. In the entire last six years? 17 A. Yeah. 18 Q. Did you have to do a dare? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was your dare? 21 A. No, yes to yeah. No, I never did that. 22 Q. Okay. Now I'm confused. Yes to yeah what is 23 that? 24 A. I said yeah and I meant yes. 25 Q. Okay. So what was the dare you had to do? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 214 1 A. I never -- I don't remember ever playing or 2 getting to that point. 3 Q. Did you have to do a truth? 4 A. I don't remember that. 5 Q. So you just observed for five minutes really? 6 A. Yeah, I was just kind of half there. 7 Q. Did you ever instruct male students to wear 8 women's clothing? 9 A. No. 10 Q. There's been testimony in depositions that from 11 time to time you would force male students to wear a 12 particular set of women's clothing as punishment. Did that 13 ever happen? 14 A. Yes. Go back. Nevermind. Say the question again 15 because I'm really confused about what you're saying. 16 Q. Okay. Did you ever force male students to wear 17 women's clothing as punishment? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Was there a pink turtleneck that some of the males 20 were forced to wear? 21 A. No one was forced. 22 Q. Okay. Let me rephrase. Did male students ever 23 wear women's clothing that you're aware of? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was there a particular set of women's clothing DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 215 1 that the male students wore? 2 A. No. 3 Q. They wore different sets of women's clothing? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How many sets of women's clothing are we talking 6 about here? 7 A. There was only three guys who ever did it. 8 Q. Who? 9 A. Justin. 10 Q. Which Justin? There's two of them. 11 A. Oh, Beasley. Sky. 12 Q. Sky Radoci? 13 A. Uh-huh. And Dan. 14 Q. Carter? 15 A. Uh-huh. 16 Q. Was it the same set of clothing that these three 17 boys wore? 18 A. No. Oh, and Tony. 19 Q. Tony Ash. Is that right? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 Q. Is that a yes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. It was different sets of women's clothing for each 24 one of them? 25 A. Yeah. They picked it. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 216 1 Q. Okay. Let's talk about Justin Beasley. What 2 women's -- 3 A. I have a picture of his clothes if you want me to 4 bring it tomorrow. 5 Q. In fact, I'm going to officially request you bring 6 it tomorrow. 7 A. Okay. It's cute. 8 MR. FERGUSON: Which I may or may not respond to, 9 but you're welcome to ask. 10 MR. TENNEY: Okay. Please bring it tomorrow. 11 THE WITNESS: He's showing off on it. 12 BY MR. TENNEY: 13 Q. Tell me the circumstances by which Justin Beasley 14 was wearing women's clothing? 15 A. Remember I told you how the kids make their own 16 consequences that go with the punishment? 17 Q. Uh-huh. 18 A. And that particular time their group decided that 19 if anybody wanted to run away that they would lose their 20 shoes and they'd have to wear weird clothes. 21 Q. So Justin tried running away. Is that correct? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. And as punishment the students decided that he 24 would wear women's clothing. Is that correct? 25 A. He decided with the students. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 217 1 Q. So he was part of the group that decided what the 2 punishment would be? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. And then he tried running away so the punishment 5 came back on him. Is that right? 6 A. Uh-huh. 7 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? Say yes. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. I'm so sorry. I just 9 can't get it. 10 BY MR. TENNEY: 11 Q. It's okay. We all do it. Where did this women's 12 clothing come from? 13 A. Well, of course the girls were very excited about 14 this. So they'd run up and get their ugliest clothes. And 15 they'd put it in a pile and the guys would pick. 16 Q. You said this just happened three times, right? 17 A. Uh-huh. 18 Q. So on the occasion that Justin Beasley -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. On the occasion that Justin Beasley had to wear 21 women's clothing whose clothing was it? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. Was it your clothing? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Was it clothing that was owned by Whitmore DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 218 1 Academy? 2 A. Yes, the girls. 3 Q. I mean, was it owned by a particular student or 4 was it clothing you had in your possession? 5 A. I don't know. 6 Q. Do you know if you still have that clothing? 7 A. We have about ten closets of clothes. 8 Q. You said before you've got a picture of Justin in 9 this clothing. So you remember what it looked like. 10 Describe it for me if you would. 11 A. It looked like -- he was proud of it. 12 Q. Okay. What does it look like though? 13 A. Like this there's a -- 14 Q. See, that's not going to work on the court 15 reporter's transcript. 16 A. Okay. See this shirt I have on? 17 Q. Still not going to work. Keep going. 18 A. And then it has little sleeves. 19 Q. The shirt was it a women's blouse? 20 A. It could look like a guy's blouse. 21 Q. What color was it? 22 A. It has floral in it. 23 Q. What was the dominant color underneath the floral? 24 A. White. 25 Q. It was a white blouse with a floral pattern on it? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 219 1 A. You'll see. It's tan. 2 Q. What pants was he wearing? 3 A. I can't remember. But I think they were pink 4 sweats. 5 Q. You're saying this just happened on one occasion? 6 A. With Justin. 7 Q. With Justin Beasley? 8 A. I mean, with everybody. I mean, the ones I just 9 told you. 10 Q. When Justin Beasley -- let's limit this discussion 11 to Justin Beasley. When Justin Beasley had to wear this 12 clothing -- 13 A. Dusty had to too. 14 Q. Dusty what's his last name? 15 A. I've got to think. 16 Q. Okay. If it comes to you later that's fine. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. On this one occasion in which Justin Beasley -- 19 well, let's make that clear. Justin Beasley only wore the 20 women's clothing on one occasion. Is that correct? That 21 you're aware of? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. You only remember the one occasion? 24 A. Yeah, absolutely. 25 Q. Where did he have to wear that clothing to? Where DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 220 1 did he go? 2 A. He didn't have to wear it anywhere. 3 Q. Where did he wear it to? 4 A. He wanted to wear it to the Mexican restaurant we 5 were going to that night. 6 Q. Do you remember the name of the restaurant? Is it 7 the restaurant that used to be down by the Movies 8 in Orem? 8 A. Yes. 9 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 10 held.) 11 BY MR. TENNEY: 12 Q. You said that Justin Beasley wore the women's 13 clothing to a restaurant? 14 A. To a restaurant we went to every week. And he 15 wanted to make the waitresses laugh. 16 Q. Did you talk to him about whether he wanted to 17 wear this clothing or not before you left for the 18 restaurant? 19 A. Yes. I talked to Justin a lot. 20 Q. What did he say about wearing this women's 21 clothing? 22 A. That it didn't bother him. He couldn't believe it 23 was a punishment. 24 Q. Did you give him the option of not wearing the 25 clothing? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 221 1 A. No. I gave him the option of not going to the 2 restaurant. But since they decided that was the punishment 3 I couldn't take it away. 4 Q. So in other words your instructions to him were 5 that if he was going to go eat he had to wear the women's 6 clothing? 7 A. No. Actually, I wanted him to stay back, but he 8 wanted to go. 9 Q. You wanted him to just not go? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 Q. But the condition was that if he was going to go 12 to the restaurant he had to -- 13 A. Then he had to wear the clothes. 14 Q. What would he have eaten if he hadn't gone with 15 you? 16 A. There was people there. 17 Q. There were students who stayed behind? 18 A. There was staff that would stay behind. I don't 19 remember the situation. But it was a reward to go to that 20 restaurant. 21 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which Justin 22 Beasley wore the women's clothing to the Provo Towne Centre 23 mall? 24 A. It could have been the same time. 25 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 222 1 Justin -- 2 A. If it was that restaurant, yeah, we probably went 3 to Provo Towne that day too. 4 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which Justin 5 Beasley was forced to walk up and down the mall wearing the 6 women's clothing as punishment? 7 A. I told you he was absolutely never forced. 8 Q. What would have happened to him if he had refused 9 to wear the women's clothing? 10 A. Then he would have done a responsibility packet 11 and thought about what he did. We would have had group. 12 And he could explain to everybody why he did what he did and 13 see where his attitude was. There's a lot of kids who 14 missed out on a lot of trips. 15 Q. What if he had simply said I'm not going to wear 16 the women's clothing but I'm going to come with you and eat? 17 What would have happened? 18 A. Nobody would have went and ate. 19 Q. Okay. Did the students ever propose a punishment 20 that you rejected, that you told them they couldn't impose? 21 A. Absolutely. 22 Q. Tell me about that. Be more specific. 23 A. I'm just thinking of one. 24 Q. Sure. Please. 25 A. We were in Mexico. And I can't remember what the DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 223 1 rule was. But they wanted it to be that they had to be 2 thrown in with the crabs at the lagoon. 3 Q. And you said no to that? 4 A. There was a whole bunch of crazies that day. They 5 just like to come up with some crazy ones. 6 Q. So you exercise control over the punishment? 7 A. Well, we talk about it and they all come to the 8 reasons. 9 Q. Did you own plastic handcuffs or zip ties at The 10 Whitmore Academy? 11 A. We have zip ties for the fence. 12 Q. Yeah. There's been some allegations that students 13 were bound with plastic handcuffs or zip ties. Do you ever 14 recall that? 15 A. I've never been aware of that. 16 Q. You've never been aware of that even happening? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Did you have plastic handcuffs at the facility? 19 A. We had zip ties for the plastic fence and that's 20 it. 21 Q. Tell me what those are. I'm not sure I follow you 22 on that. 23 A. Zip ties -- you have to ask Mark because I'm not 24 the fencer. 25 Q. Did you ever see them? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 224 1 A. No. But I think they're at the hangar. 2 Q. So you never saw these zip ties. Is that correct? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Did you ever instruct a student to be bound with 5 zip ties? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you ever threaten a student that he or she 8 might be bound with zip ties? 9 A. No. But I know that -- 10 MR. FERGUSON: Just answer the question. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. No. 12 BY MR. FERGUSON: 13 Q. Before you were cut off you were saying but you 14 know that. What were you about to say? 15 MR. FERGUSON: If you want to ask her a question 16 you can ask her one. But I don't want her speculating. 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which a 19 student was bound with zip ties? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which the 22 students discussed binding each other with zip ties? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Do you own metal handcuffs? 25 A. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 225 1 Q. Are you aware of metal handcuffs ever existing at 2 the Whitmore mansion during the past six years? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Tell me about that. 5 A. When Dusty ran away. 6 Q. What's his last name again? Dusty -- oh, that's 7 the one you couldn't remember. 8 A. The police brought him back in handcuffs. 9 Q. And they took them off I'm assuming? 10 A. Uh-huh. 11 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, Matt got handcuffed and taken to 13 Provo. 14 BY MR. TENNEY: 15 Q. Matt Maylor? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. Are you aware of the students ever handcuffing 18 each other? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Are you aware of the students having access to 21 handcuffs at all? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Was Cory Schwartz ever handcuffed to his bed after 24 he ran away? 25 A. What? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 226 1 Q. Cory Schwartz is that a male or a female? Was 2 there a student named Cory Schwartz? 3 A. Yeah. That was a long time ago. 4 Q. Is that a male or a female? 5 A. A male. 6 Q. When was Cory there? 7 A. I couldn't tell you. 8 Q. Approximately? Was he there with Justin Busa? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Was he there with Jenna Sager? 11 A. Yeah. 12 Q. Did Cory Schwartz ever try running away? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Was he ever handcuffed to his bed after he was 15 caught? 16 A. He was handcuffed by the police with Dusty. 17 Q. But when he returned to the mansion do you recall 18 him -- 19 A. I don't think they put him on the bed. 20 Q. Do you recall him ever being handcuffed to any 21 furniture or appliance? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Was Tim Hendricks ever restrained because of 24 problems with cutting himself? 25 MR. FERGUSON: Give me that name again. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 227 1 MR. TENNEY: Tim Hendricks. 2 THE WITNESS: Say that again. 3 MR. TENNEY: Tim Hendricks. 4 THE WITNESS: No, say your question. 5 BY MR. TENNEY: 6 Q. Are you aware of Tim Hendricks ever being 7 restrained to stop himself from hurting himself? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Tell me about that. 10 A. The police had to restrain him because he was 11 hitting himself and he was hitting the police. 12 Q. Why were the police there at that time? 13 A. Because he was drunk. 14 MARK SUDWEEKS: Cheryl. Off the record. 15 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 16 held.) 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Other than the police restraining Tim Hendricks 19 did you ever have Tim Hendricks restrained while he was 20 under your care? 21 A. No. 22 Q. What about John Flannigan? Did you ever have to 23 restrain John Flannigan with metal or plastic handcuffs? 24 A. Not that I'm aware of. 25 Q. Did the kids have access to boxing gloves while DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 228 1 they were at The Whitmore Academy? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Where did the boxing gloves come from? 4 A. They had their own. 5 Q. Who bought them? 6 A. Their parents. 7 Q. Whose parents bought them? 8 A. The kids' parents. 9 Q. How many sets of boxing gloves were at The 10 Whitmore Academy? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. Give me a ballpark. Are we talking one set of 13 boxing gloves or are we talking 20? 14 A. Two. 15 Q. When did they first show up? Were they there as 16 early as 2002 or was this a recent event? 17 A. It's when Shay was there. 18 Q. What's Shay's last name? 19 A. McKenzie. 20 Q. Were you aware when those boxing gloves were 21 brought to the academy? Were you made aware of that? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you have a problem with that? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Were you at all concerned about the potential for DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 229 1 violence that boxing gloves might bring? 2 A. Shay was a boxer. And his parents didn't want him 3 to lose his knack. And he was leaving in a couple of months 4 and he'd be going back to school where they box. And they 5 sent the guards and all the things that they needed. 6 Q. The face guards? 7 A. Uh-huh. And they had strict rules. 8 Q. Who was allowed to box each other? 9 A. Only Shay and Rob. 10 Q. Shay and Rob were the only ones who were allowed 11 to use the gloves? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. TENNEY: 16 Q. What would happen if other students -- did other 17 students ever use the gloves that you're aware of? 18 A. I was never aware. 19 Q. To the best of your knowledge -- to the best of 20 your memory Rob and Shay are the only ones who ever wore 21 those gloves? 22 A. Except at parents weekends when all the parents 23 were there. Everybody was playing around. 24 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which Leah 25 Schacherer and Justin Beasley were boxing with each other? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 230 1 A. With boxing gloves? 2 Q. Yeah, with those boxing gloves. 3 A. No. 4 Q. Are you aware of any circumstance in which Leah 5 Schacherer and Justin Beasley ever hit each other? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Tell me about that. 8 A. They fought all the time. 9 Q. Fought physically? 10 A. They hated each other. 11 Q. Are you aware of them ever fighting physically? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How often did they fight physically? 14 A. Practically every time they saw each other. 15 Q. Did they ever fight in front of you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you try to stop them when that happened? 18 A. Absolutely. 19 Q. Did you ever encourage them to fight each other? 20 A. Never. 21 Q. Did you ever encourage them to box each other? 22 A. Never. 23 Q. When Leah and Justin were fighting with each other 24 did you inform their parents that this was going on? 25 A. No. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 231 1 Q. What punishments were given to Leah and Justin for 2 fighting with each other? 3 A. They had to sit in the same room together, and do 4 a responsibility packet, and tell each other they were 5 sorry, and 20 second hug. 6 Q. We were talking about this before, all the 7 incidences of physical violence that you could remember. 8 And you identified Rob and Nick from D.C, the Lindsey 9 Kleeberger group, Casey Willis. And so I guess to that we 10 now need to add Justin and Leah who routinely fought. Is 11 that right? 12 A. Yeah. Actually, I wouldn't put Justin on there. 13 Justin is not a violent person. I would just put Leah. She 14 tried to beat up a lot of people. 15 Q. So Leah would try to hit Justin and Justin 16 wouldn't hit her back? Is that your memory? 17 A. Well, that one time they did. They didn't get a 18 chance to really get any further. 19 Q. So now I'm confused. Did they fight one time or 20 did they fight often? 21 A. They tried to fight often. They fought one time. 22 Q. They only actually made contact with each other 23 one time? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. Can you think of any other instances in which DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 232 1 students made physical contact with each other? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Are you familiar with a room in the Whitmore 4 mansion that's referred to as the shelf room? 5 A. There isn't a room like that. 6 Q. Are you familiar with a room that the students 7 referred to as the shelf room? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You'll recall that Mr. Parkinson who has since 10 left us -- Mr. Parkinson and I came down a couple months ago 11 and took a tour of the mansion. Are you aware of that 12 happening? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. When we took the tour of the mansion there were 18 two rooms in particular that we noticed that I want to talk 19 about. You have to forgive me with my spatial descriptions. 20 Off the record. 21 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 22 held.) 23 BY MR. TENNEY: 24 Q. As you came up the stairs on either the second or 25 the third floor -- second floor there was an alcove that DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 233 1 looked like it was a doorway out to the roof just right as 2 you came up the top of the stairs? 3 A. Oh, yeah. 4 Q. And you sort of came in the little alcove and 5 there's a door right there that literally just went out to 6 the roof. And if you turned around there was a wooden shelf 7 there. 8 A. That's where we keep the sheets. 9 Q. Are you familiar with that room? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Okay. Was there an official name for that room? 12 A. The laundry room, the sheet room. 13 Q. The sheet room. Because there's no laundry 14 equipment in there? 15 A. No. It's not got an official name. I just called 16 it the sheet room. 17 Q. Okay. And the dimensions of that room do you have 18 an estimate of how big that room is? 19 A. Too small for someone. 20 Q. There's a shelf there. Is that correct? There's 21 a wooden plank that -- 22 A. Yes. I had Mark put a shelf there. 23 Q. Okay. And there's a ladder to get up to the 24 shelf. Is that correct? 25 A. That's right. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 234 1 Q. When was that shelf first put there in that 2 alcove? 3 A. When we first moved there. 4 Q. So that's as far as back as 2000, 2001. Is that 5 right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. To the best of your knowledge did a student ever 8 sleep on that shelf? 9 A. Nate always wanted to sleep on that shelf, but -- 10 Q. Which Nate? 11 A. Nate from a long time ago. Nate Johnson. But, 12 no, that wasn't his bedroom. 13 Q. Did a student ever sleep on that shelf that you're 14 aware of? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever threaten a student that he or she 17 might have to sleep on that shelf? 18 A. No. 19 Q. There's a room right next to it where there's a 20 bed in the room right next to it. Is that correct? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. I believe that's to the north of that room? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? Say yes. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 235 1 BY MR. TENNEY: 2 Q. It appeared to me that there was shelving on top 3 of that bed. Is that right? 4 A. Yes. It's a bed. 5 Q. Is it a bunk bed? Is it a two kid bunk bed? 6 A. It's a captain's bed. It has drawers underneath 7 it and everything. 8 Q. Okay. The bed on top did students sleep on that 9 bed? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Was that always used as a bed since it was there? 12 A. Sometimes we only had one student in that room. 13 Q. Do you recall when that captain's bed was put up 14 there? 15 A. When we first moved there. 16 Q. Now, it's my memory that you needed a ladder to 17 get up to that top bed. Is that right? 18 A. Yeah. Just like a bunk bed has a ladder. 19 Q. Are you aware of any circumstances in which a 20 student was required to sleep on that top bed with the 21 ladder having been removed and they couldn't get down? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Tell me about those. 24 A. Lindsey. 25 Q. Lindsey Kleeberger? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 236 1 A. That's the only one I remember. 2 Q. How long was she up there without the ladder? 3 A. What? 4 Q. How long was she up there without the ladder? 5 A. Until she had to go to the bathroom. 6 Q. So was somebody assigned to sit there and be there 7 for her just in case she needed to get down or how did that 8 work? 9 A. Yes, staff and students. There was a desk up in 10 that hallway that the staff was at. And then there was a 11 student that slept in the room with her. 12 Q. How many days was she up there approximately? 13 A. I can't recall. But I think maybe two or three. 14 Q. Other than Lindsey do you recall any other student 15 ever being up there without the ladder? 16 A. Without the ladder? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. No. Oh, yeah, Justin. 19 Q. Justin? Which Justin? 20 A. Who else? Beasley. 21 Q. How long was Justin Beasley up there? 22 A. Well, he didn't stay. He jumped down. He was up 23 there five minutes. 24 Q. Any other instances in which a student was placed 25 up there without the ladder? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 237 1 A. No. 2 Q. Let's talk about food at The Whitmore Academy. 3 Who prepared the food? 4 A. Whoever was in charge of the home ec. 5 Q. Was there an official meal plan for your program? 6 A. Yes, there was. 7 Q. I noted that it was sent in the discovery 8 responses. I noted this morning I forgot to bring it with 9 me. But is it something that you prepared for your lawyers 10 and asked them to send to us -- the meal plan? 11 A. Is it something what? 12 Q. The mean plan was it a typed document? 13 A. It's just that we changed it every month. That's 14 what the RIP meetings were. The kids would decide what they 15 wanted to eat that week. And whoever was in home ec was in 16 charge of fixing it with their leader. 17 Q. So as far as the menus for the students go those 18 would change on a week to week basis. Is that right? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. TENNEY: 23 Q. Who bought the food? 24 A. We all did mostly. 25 Q. What does that mean? It's hard for me to imagine DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 238 1 40 students walking through a grocery store. Who would buy 2 the food? Would you all go? 3 A. Yes. The groups that I told you about -- we were 4 very organized. And the groups had different things that 5 they were supposed to be in charge of. 6 And it depended on the time of year. A lot of 7 outings that we would go on the kids would have to make up 8 their whole meal and then plan it out for their home ec 9 class and then cook it and serve it. So they would have to 10 get it from scratch to finish. 11 Q. These are these seven and eight person groups 12 you're talking about? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would they feed -- would the food for the seven 15 person group only be for that group or would one group -- 16 A. No, we would all eat together. 17 Q. One group would be assigned to feed everybody? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. On a rotating basis? 20 A. Yes. On different trips. At the mansion it 21 depended on if you had home ec that semester. During that 22 time slot in the day you would spend your time in the 23 kitchen and you would prepare whatever is on the menu that 24 day. 25 And we would go into Costco. And the different DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 239 1 groups were responsible for either buying dairy or they 2 would buy the produce or they would, you know, get the bread 3 or the chips. 4 Q. How closely did you supervise the preparation of 5 the menu -- the planning stage? 6 A. I was involved with a lot of things. 7 Q. How closely were you involved in figuring out the 8 menu for the week? 9 A. It depended. You know, when we -- up in Canada I 10 was right there. Here I haven't been as involved, hardly at 11 all. 12 Q. Was there somebody from the staff that was 13 assigned to be involved with that? 14 A. Absolutely. 15 Q. Who? 16 A. Trinity and Shayla and Dar and Anna and whoever 17 was the staff member at that time. Even Ben. 18 Q. Did Trinity or Shayla or any of the other people 19 that you just mentioned are you aware of any specific 20 training that they have had in nutrition or dietary 21 sciences? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What? 24 A. They had -- Trinity had a certification of some 25 kind. I'm not sure which one. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 240 1 Q. From what? From a university? 2 A. No. We would get our menu cleared -- they would 3 write up the menu and then it would be cleared by a -- I 4 wish I could ask him. By someone that we had to hire from 5 the State that checks the nursing home and the hospital and 6 different places to make sure -- 7 Q. I'm sorry, was that done on a weekly basis or a 8 monthly basis? 9 A. I think it was like three times a year. 10 Q. You said the menus were being prepared every week 11 though? 12 A. Yes. They would turn in a master menu of -- 13 Q. For the previous third of a year? 14 A. Yeah. 15 Q. Or for the upcoming third of a year? How did that 16 work? 17 A. No. If they wanted spaghetti that night it had 18 already been decided what you eat with that spaghetti in 19 order to get your four things. If they wanted -- you know, 20 they could change it around. 21 Q. They the students? 22 A. Yeah. But basically to get your full rounded. 23 Q. How often did the students eat out at restaurants? 24 A. Some didn't get to eat out as much as others. But 25 if you were on track it could be three times a week. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 241 1 Q. Which restaurants would you go to? 2 A. They loved buffets. They loved the Golden Corral. 3 They loved the China buffet. They loved Brick Oven. They 4 loved Hogi Yogi, Teryaki Sticks. They liked Taco Time. 5 They liked -- there's a lot. 6 MR. FERGUSON: Can I interrupt? 7 MR. TENNEY: Please. 8 MR. FERGUSON: Attached to Exhibit 27 is a 9 document called, "Service Agreement Between The Whitmore 10 Academy and Valery Shaw" -- 11 MR. TENNEY: That's what I was looking for. 12 MR. FERGUSON: -- that relates to menus. And then 13 there's a page behind that says Whitmore Academy meal plans. 14 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 15 held.) 16 MR. TENNEY: Let's turn to that for just a minute. 17 MR. FERGUSON: It's Exhibit 27. 18 BY MR. TENNEY: 19 Q. Exhibit 27 the last page. There's a document here 20 at the very end of Exhibit 27 that says meal plans on it. 21 It's time stamped October 5th of 2003. What is this 22 document? Take a minute to look at it. 23 A. What is what? 24 Q. What is this document? What is it? 25 A. This looks like what Trinity had submitted. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 242 1 Q. In fact, let me have you go back a page. Maybe 2 this will help out. Go back to the previous page if you 3 would. This will make more sense if you go back. 4 The previous page there's a title to it. It says, 5 "Service Agreement Between The Whitmore Academy and Valery 6 Shaw." There's date on there December 16th of 2002. Do you 7 see that? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Who is Valery Shaw? 10 A. She's a licensed dietician. 11 Q. Did you have contact with her personally? 12 A. Mark did. 13 Q. Did you have any personal contact with her? 14 A. Me? 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. No. 17 Q. Okay. So were you ever involved with this 18 document, this service agreement? Do you have personal 19 knowledge about it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. We'll move on then. 22 Did you have a policy regarding leftovers? What 23 was done with leftovers at the mansion? 24 A. We bought some pigs. 25 Q. I'm sorry? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 243 1 A. We bought pigs. 2 Q. And you fed the leftovers to them. Is that 3 correct? 4 A. Yeah. Yes. 5 Q. Was that a strict rule, all leftovers went to the 6 pigs? Or did you sometimes keep leftovers in the fridge? 7 A. Well, if they were good yeah. 8 Q. So just the bad leftovers went to the pigs? 9 A. Well, if they were like two days old. We wouldn't 10 throw out a pan of lasagna because we had it for dinner that 11 night and we could eat it tomorrow. The boys liked to eat 12 anything. 13 MR. FERGUSON: In fact, they probably fought with 14 the pigs if they were like the likes of the boys I know. 15 THE WITNESS: It's hard to get kids to eat 16 leftovers. 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Did you ever inspect the leftovers that were kept 19 in the fridge to make sure that they were all sanitary or 20 healthy? 21 A. That was one of the jobs on the job list. 22 Q. For students? 23 A. No. Like I said, whoever is over home ec would go 24 through. When the kids would start school in the morning 25 after jump start they'd be over at the school where Bernie DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 244 1 was. And they'd come over to the mansion, which would be 2 empty. And they could go through all the rooms and make 3 sure -- we have checkoff lists like crazy. And each room 4 they'd check it off. And if it wasn't done they'd write 5 their little notes. And they would go in the kitchen. And 6 the fridge was one of them and leftovers was on it. And 7 they'd also check the freezers. 8 Q. So they would check the leftovers to make sure -- 9 A. Every day. 10 Q. To make sure that the food in there was fit to be 11 eaten. Is that right? 12 A. Every day. And covered and, you know, properly 13 put away. 14 Q. Are you aware of any instances in which a student 15 was allowed to eat rotten food? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Are you aware of any instances in which a student 18 was allowed to eat spoiled food? 19 MR. FERGUSON: What's the difference? 20 MR. TENNEY: I don't know, but it sounded good. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. TENNEY: 23 Q. Did you ever instruct a student to eat rotten or 24 spoiled food? 25 A. I wouldn't do that. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 245 1 Q. So is that a no? 2 A. That's absolutely no. 3 Q. Did you ever prevent a student from having access 4 to food as some sort of punishment? 5 A. We don't use food for punishment. 6 Q. Are you aware of the students ever coming up with 7 that as a punishment that they were going to impose on each 8 other? 9 A. I don't remember them even saying that. But if 10 they did, it would have been turned down. 11 Q. Were the students allowed to store food in their 12 bedrooms? 13 A. No. But they did. 14 Q. How often did they? Was it a common occurrence? 15 A. I couldn't tell you because they snuck it. 16 Q. Let's talk about the cleaning for a few minutes. 17 Who did cleaning at the Whitmore mansion? 18 A. All of the kids had chores to do. But then like I 19 said the home ec person would go through and do the 20 checkoff. Which they would have to come back until they got 21 it right. 22 Q. Did you personally clean anything? 23 A. Of course. 24 Q. What did you clean? 25 A. Probably everything. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 246 1 Q. Well, if the students were doing the cleaning why 2 would you have been doing the cleaning as well? 3 A. My life is my teaching. 4 Q. So you would come in after them and -- 5 A. No. I would do it with them. 6 Q. So would you rotate yourself amongst the different 7 chores? How did that work? What was your role in that? 8 A. If there was some kids that weren't getting it. 9 Because see most of these kids have never had a job in their 10 life and most of them don't know how to push a broom. So 11 you would just work alongside of them. And from watching 12 you they can learn a lot. 13 Q. Was that part of your daily routine? 14 A. I tried to make it. 15 Q. Who checked off that the students had actually 16 done their cleaning? 17 A. Different people on staff. 18 Q. Was it staff or was it students that did that 19 checking off? 20 A. The students would do the first checkoff -- the 21 prefect. Not all students. Just we had some students who 22 were there for over two years so they had it down very good. 23 There's maybe four that we could trust to do that. So there 24 was Hannah, Leah -- and she was very mean about it. 25 Q. What did she do that was mean about it? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 247 1 A. I just heard since the kids have gone home Hannah 2 was very mean. She'd check off the kids she liked and 3 she -- 4 Q. Are you talking about Hannah or Leah? 5 A. Leah. No, Hannah was fair. Hannah, Leah, PJ and 6 that's about it. 7 See, each group had the prefect. And each of them 8 had like -- if one group had outside jobs to do the prefect 9 would check it first. Then you get an inside -- you know, 10 it would be broke up to kitchen, upstairs, second floor, you 11 know, that whole prefect. So teamwork. 12 And then the prefect would check all the kids off 13 first. And then the student whose job it was to check off 14 would check everything off because it wasn't right. It 15 takes three times. And then we'd have the staff person go 16 through and they would check them off. 17 Q. Did your biological children did they do any of 18 the cleaning? 19 A. They did like I did. They worked alongside of 20 them. 21 Q. Were they given specific chores? 22 A. No. You mean, the younger ones? 23 Q. I mean your kids: Shayla, Trinity, whoever. 24 A. They worked 24/7. 25 Q. Did they clean? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 248 1 A. That's a really broad question. Of course they 2 cleaned. 3 Q. I mean, were they given specific chores to clean 4 or did they just clean whatever you -- 5 A. They did everything. 6 Q. So was that yes they were given specific chores? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. By whom? By you or by prefects? 9 A. No. They're very responsible people. They know 10 what needs to be done. 11 Q. Okay. So were they given cleaning assignments by 12 you or were they given cleaning assignments by prefects? 13 A. They would never be given a job by a prefect. 14 Q. Were they given specific jobs by you? 15 A. Okay. You're going to have to go back to the 16 beginning of the question because this is absurd. My kids 17 worked for me. 18 Q. My question is -- it's a real narrow question 19 actually. Did you give your kids specific cleaning jobs? 20 A. Does the president clean the White House? 21 Q. Okay. Now, I didn't ask you a question about the 22 president and the White House. And the president nor the 23 White House are under oath here. Did you give your kids -- 24 MR. FERGUSON: Just yes or no. Did you give your 25 kids a specific cleaning assignment? If you didn't, say no. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 249 1 If you did, say yes. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I would not have to. 3 BY MR. TENNEY: 4 Q. So that's a no you did not give them specific 5 cleaning assignments? 6 A. No. 7 Q. How much did you spend per month on cleaning 8 supplies? Do you know? 9 A. No, I don't. But a lot. 10 Q. Did the kids always have Windex? 11 A. Always. 12 Q. Did they always have access to Comet? 13 A. Well, when you spend $10,000 a week at Costco it 14 usually included the cleaning supplies. 15 Q. Is that what you spent for a week at Costco, 16 $10,000? 17 A. Pretty much. 18 Q. Where did that $10,000 go? Break it down if you 19 could. 20 A. Food and cleaning supplies, period. 21 Q. You spent $10,000 per week at Costco for food for 22 40 kids? 23 A. Yeah. We can prove it. 24 Q. How can you prove it? 25 A. Well, we probably have receipts. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 250 1 Q. Do you have those receipts with you? 2 A. Absolutely not. 3 Q. We'll be asking for those later. So I'd ask right 4 now that you not destroy anything that you've got in your 5 possession. Is that fair? 6 A. That's fair, but you're a little late. 7 Q. Why is that? 8 A. Because your clients have pretty much destroyed 9 our life, which happens to be a lot of the stuff that we 10 used to have. 11 Q. Do you have any evidence that any of my clients 12 have destroyed any of your receipts? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. FERGUSON: We've been through this already. 15 BY MR. TENNEY: 16 Q. You mentioned that you had receipts and I asked 17 where they were? 18 A. Because of your clients our life is very 19 unorganized. 20 Q. Okay. I'm just simply going to ask -- I don't 21 want to get into this right now. I'm simply going to ask if 22 you know where any receipts are to prove your $10,000 a 23 month at Costco bill -- 24 A. We could certainly try. 25 Q. We'll be sending you something through your DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 251 1 counsel about that. 2 During our inspection of the mansion I noticed 3 that a lot of the bathrooms in the Whitmore mansion itself 4 don't actually have doors on them. But that instead they 5 sort of open to the adjoining bedroom. Is that correct? 6 A. Your inspection of the mansion was a year after 7 everybody had been gone. 8 Q. Okay. Well, then that leads to my next question. 9 While the students were there as part of the program -- 10 A. Absolutely they had privacy to the bathrooms. 11 Q. Were there doors on the bathrooms? 12 A. They weren't doors. They were beautiful elegant 13 curtains that made the Whitmore mansion famous. 14 Q. So they were not wooden doors? They were just 15 curtains? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Between the bathrooms and the rooms? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Were the students allowed to flush toilet paper 20 down the toilets? 21 A. Yes, they were. 22 Q. Were there any restrictions on what they could or 23 could not flush? 24 A. Yes, there was. 25 Q. What were the restrictions? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 252 1 A. No Tampax. But they kept doing it. 2 Q. So the students could flush toilet paper, but they 3 just couldn't flush tampons. Is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Forgive me for asking but what's the difference 6 between tampons and toilet paper in terms of the sewer 7 system? 8 A. It plugs up old sewer systems. 9 MR. FERGUSON: And new ones I might add. 10 BY MR. TENNEY: 11 Q. Good to know. So students were allowed to flush 12 toilet paper down the toilets? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Were the students ever instructed to put used 15 toilet paper in the trash cans instead of flushing it? 16 A. If there was a Tampax in it. 17 Q. But in terms of just the toilet paper did you ever 18 instruct the students to put their toilet paper in the trash 19 can rather than flushing it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You did instruct them then? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Why did you instruct them that way? 24 A. When the sewer was flooding over and it would take 25 a day or two for the plumber to fix it. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 253 1 Q. How often would that happen? 2 A. Quite often when they wouldn't listen to you. 3 Q. Give me an estimate. Over the course of 2000 to 4 the present day how often has your sewage system required 5 that sort of rule? 6 A. Five or six times. 7 Q. Total? 8 A. Maybe. 9 Q. Five or six times per year or five or six times 10 total? 11 A. A year. 12 Q. So that once a year you'd have a two day period 13 where they couldn't flush the toilet paper? 14 A. No. 15 MR. FERGUSON: She said five or six times a year. 16 BY MR. TENNEY: 17 Q. Oh, I misunderstood that. You said five or six 18 times per year? 19 A. Uh-huh. 20 Q. Okay. And it was for about a two day period each 21 of those times you think? 22 A. Or sometimes longer. 23 Q. What was the longest that the students were 24 ever -- 25 A. I couldn't tell you. It's up to the plumber. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 254 1 Q. Did it ever go as far as a week? 2 A. It sure could have. 3 Q. Do you remember it ever going as far as two weeks? 4 A. I don't remember anything about it. 5 Q. Okay. But other than that students were allowed 6 to flush toilet paper? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. On those occasions in which students were 9 not allowed to flush toilet paper where did the toilet paper 10 go? 11 A. Into the garbage can. 12 Q. How often were those garbage cans emptied? 13 A. That was somebody's job. 14 Q. Were they given plastic gloves for that job? 15 A. No. 16 Q. So if a piece of soiled toilet paper fell to the 17 ground they were expected to pick it up and put it back in 18 the trash can with their bare hands? 19 A. No. The trash can had plastic and they'd tie the 20 knot. And there wasn't a lot of toilet paper in them. 21 Q. You had 40 teenagers and they didn't use a lot of 22 toilet paper? 23 A. The garbages were emptied four times a day. 24 Q. By whom? 25 A. By the garbage person. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 255 1 Q. That would be a student? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you have a policy regarding how long the 4 students could shower? 5 A. Not normally. But if we had a student who was 6 used to 30 minute showers, we would tell them they could 7 take a two minute shower. No one ever took a two minute 8 shower. 9 Q. They took longer showers or shorter showers? 10 A. Longer. 11 Q. And so to make sure I've got this correct your 12 testimony today is that you did not have a two minute rule 13 on the showers? 14 A. Yes, we have. 15 Q. You did have a two minute rule? 16 A. Yes, we have had. Not always. 17 Q. When did you have the two minute rule? 18 A. When we had kids who wanted to stay in the shower 19 all morning. 20 Q. Who were those kids that wanted to stay in the 21 shower all morning? 22 A. I couldn't tell you. But they usually come in 23 batches. 24 MR. FERGUSON: I had one that lived at my house. 25 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 256 1 held.) 2 BY MR. TENNEY: 3 Q. I need you to -- I know this is probably seeming 4 repetitive. I need to narrow this down as much as possible. 5 Over the course of the last six years -- we're talking 2000 6 to the present day -- how often did you have that two minute 7 rule in place? I mean, 50 percent of the time? 75 percent 8 of the time? Give me some sense of how often that two 9 minute rule was in place. 10 A. I couldn't tell you. 11 Q. Was it more or less than 50 percent of the time? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Was it more or less than 25 percent of the time? 14 A. I don't know. 15 Q. During those times in which the two minute rule 16 was in place what would happen if a student took a longer 17 shower than two minutes? 18 A. They usually got away with it because nobody was 19 watching. 20 Q. Did that two minute rule apply to everybody or 21 just the student who wanted to take the 30 minute showers? 22 A. It applied to everyone. Where we go one we go all 23 was our theme. 24 Q. So like the Three Musketeers? 25 A. Yeah. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 257 1 Q. Or in this case the 39 musketeers? 2 A. Or White Squall. 3 Q. Okay. So just to make sure I've got this right 4 you've got a student that comes in, you've discovered that 5 this student likes to take really long showers. And so 6 in order to prevent that student from taking all the hot 7 water you just impose a blanket rule that nobody gets to 8 take a shower longer than two minutes. Is that how that 9 worked? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. And then when that student left at the end of 12 their year did it go back to a normal shower length? Or was 13 this a temporary thing? 14 A. If they had a real serious problem about it they 15 knew they could talk to me. No one had a problem, I mean, 16 at the time. Obviously they do now. 17 Q. How did you enforce the two minute rule? 18 A. We didn't. 19 Q. So it was just an honor code thing? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 BY MR. TENNEY: 24 Q. Did you ever have a group on a kid for taking a 25 longer shower than two minutes? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 258 1 A. Yes, we did. 2 Q. Who? 3 A. Justin Beasley. He was masturbating in the shower 4 and he took an hour and a half. 5 Q. How do you know that he was masturbating in the 6 shower? 7 A. He told us. 8 Q. He told who? 9 A. Group. 10 Q. Why was the group called on him? 11 A. Hu? 12 Q. Why was the group called on him? 13 A. Because the kids needed to use the bathroom and he 14 wouldn't get out. 15 Q. So then you call a group on him because he was in 16 the bathroom for too long and he then admitted that he had 17 been masturbating? 18 A. Uh-huh. After looking at porn on his computer 19 that he wasn't supposed to have on. 20 Q. How did you know that he had porn on his computer? 21 A. We found it. 22 Q. Did you find it before or after the group started? 23 A. After. 24 Q. So while the group was going on somebody was 25 looking at his computer? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 259 1 A. Uh-huh. 2 Q. Who was looking at his computer? 3 A. Catelyn Loggins. 4 Q. Did Justin give her permission to look at his 5 computer? 6 A. No. That's a rule. 7 Q. Did he own that computer? 8 A. Yes. But that's a rule in the mansion. You can 9 have computer checks any time. That's the reason we let 10 them have Internet. 11 Q. So you allowed students to look through other 12 students' computers? 13 A. Absolutely. 14 Q. Did Justin's mother or father give permission to 15 have another student looking through Justin's computer? 16 A. She's the one that pretty much gave us the idea 17 because she knew he had a problem with porn. 18 Q. So Justin is in the bathroom for too long. You 19 call a group on him about that. While you're discussing his 20 lengthy bathroom trips Catelyn figures out that he's got 21 porn on his computer. And Justin then admits that he's 22 masturbating. Is that how that unfolded? 23 A. No. He told us that he wasn't in the bathroom 24 with his computer. That he was talking to Susan on the 25 telephone. So we called Susan who said she never heard from DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 260 1 Justin. So then we thought, Oh, I knew what he was doing. 2 Because the kids knew he had a problem with it. So it was 3 his roommates that went and looked it up. But Catelyn knows 4 how to get into it. 5 Q. Did you ever have a policy regarding when the 6 students could shower? What time of day I mean? 7 A. It was just on our schedule. 8 Q. What was the schedule for showering? 9 A. Before we got started into our day. 10 Q. When did you get started in your day? 11 A. It depended. 12 Q. On? 13 A. The time of year. 14 Q. What was the typical starting time for your day? 15 A. It depended. 16 Q. Help me out here. We're going to be here all 17 night. What time did you typically start your day? 18 A. It depended. 19 Q. On what? 20 A. On if we were travelling. 21 Q. Okay. When you were at the mansion -- I don't 22 want to talk about when you were travelling. When you were 23 at the mansion what time did the day start? 24 A. It depended on if it was summer or fall or winter. 25 Q. Okay. On a typical summer day at the mansion when DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 261 1 you were not travelling what time did your day start? 2 A. Typical summer day at the mansion started around 3 7:00. 4 Q. So when you were in a typical summer day when you 5 were not travelling a student was allowed to shower any time 6 before 7:00? Is that how that worked? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Okay. Tell me how that worked? 9 A. They listen to subliminals until 7:30. And then 10 they have a half hour to shower, do their teeth and get 11 ready to come down and eat, do their jobs. 12 Q. How did that change during the winter? 13 A. During the winter -- it changed in the fall. 14 Q. Okay. How did that change in the fall? 15 A. Academics became a priority and our days started 16 at 5:30. And they would have to get up earlier because we 17 lose light in the night. 18 Q. So they would have to shower before 5:30 at that 19 point? 20 A. No. Actually, I think it was 5:30. It just 21 depended on what the kids were doing or if we had something 22 planned. 23 Q. Let me ask it this way. Did you ever have a cut 24 off time set where the students had to shower before such 25 and such time or else they lost the ability to shower during DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 262 1 that day? 2 A. Yes. We had discipline. If they weren't at their 3 science class from 4:30 to 5:30, they didn't get to do it at 4 9:00. If they were supposed to shower from 5:30 to 6:00, 5 they couldn't do it during their science class. 6 Q. So then assuming for purposes of this question 7 that the shower time would change by season. You're saying 8 that whatever the shower time was if they didn't shower 9 during that set time they were not allowed to shower later. 10 Is that correct? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Okay. What was incorrect about that? 13 A. If they came and told me that they needed to have 14 a shower, and that they were sorry they'd tried to stick to 15 schedule, we worked with the kids. We were very flexible 16 with that. 17 Q. Are you aware of any incidence in which a child 18 went more than two days without showering? 19 A. No. Yes. 20 Q. Who? 21 A. Zeda. 22 Q. Other than Zeda -- we're not going to talk about 23 Zeda. Other than Zeda are you aware of any other students 24 who ever went more than two days without showering? 25 A. No. I don't think too many of them had hygiene DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 263 1 problems like she did. The prefect was to let me know if 2 all the kids in their room didn't get a shower. That was 3 part of the prefect's job. 4 Q. So if you found out that a student had not been 5 showering for a few days, would you make sure that that 6 student did shower? 7 A. It would be on their PPI. And not only would I 8 know but the parents would know. 9 Q. Did you ever see a mouse or a rat at the Whitmore 10 mansion? 11 A. I have never seen a rat in my life. 12 Q. Did you ever see a mouse at the Whitmore mansion? 13 A. I have seen a mouse at the Whitmore. I've seen a 14 mouse at the arena house. I've seen a mouse at the school. 15 Nephi has mice. 16 Q. What did you do to deal with the mice that you saw 17 at the arena house and the mansion? 18 A. More than most people because the kids didn't like 19 the mice. We had D-Con and we had traps. And it became 20 Bernie's job for a whole year to catch as many mice as he 21 could. And I gave him a dollar a mouse. 22 Q. How many dollars did you end up giving him? 23 A. I don't remember. 24 Q. $50? $100? 25 A. Oh, no. More. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 264 1 Q. More than 50? 2 A. Yeah, I'm sure. 3 Q. More than 100? 4 A. I'm sure. 5 Q. So you think he caught more than 100 mice during 6 the course of that year? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. More than 200? 9 A. Well, that's not just at the Whitmore. I mean, 10 he'd go out to the barn and he'd go out to the fields. He 11 was into catching mice. 12 No. On an average if you want to find out how 13 many mice were at the mansion there might be a family, which 14 would be four. 15 Q. So you don't think you had a mouse problem at the 16 mansion? 17 A. No, we absolutely did not have a mouse problem. 18 Q. And you don't think that you had a mouse problem 19 at the arena house? 20 A. I thought we did because there was a smell, but it 21 was bats. We just found that out this year. 22 Q. Where were the bats? 23 A. Up in the eaves. 24 Q. Oh, really? 25 A. And we had no clue. But for some reason we never DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 265 1 saw them all these years. And this spring they just -- and 2 so we got them. 3 Q. What was the age range of your student population? 4 A. In Utah? 5 Q. Yeah. 6 A. It was between mostly 14 to 18. 7 Q. What was the youngest child you ever admitted? 8 A. I think 12. 9 Q. What was the oldest child you ever admitted? 10 A. Eighteen. 11 Q. Was Zeda the youngest? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 BY MR. TENNEY: 16 Q. Who was the oldest? 17 A. Maybe they were 17. I don't know. I couldn't 18 tell you. 19 Q. And you had -- my understanding is that you had 20 both girls and boys. Is that correct? 21 A. Yes, we did. 22 Q. Were the boys and girls segregated in terms of 23 where they slept? 24 A. Absolutely. 25 Q. How? How did that segregation occur? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 266 1 A. Well, if you were at the mansion the third 2 floor -- the second floor has a door. Did you see that? 3 Q. The door where? 4 A. There's a door in that hallway when you go back to 5 your shelf room. 6 Q. Oh, okay. Right. 7 A. There's a door -- did you see it? 8 Q. I think I know what you're talking about but I'm 9 not entirely sure. 10 A. That was shut every night. And then Eddie who 11 became a proctor, an employee, he would sleep down there 12 just to make sure that -- 13 Q. Sleep in the hallway? 14 A. Yeah, on a cot. Just to make sure there was no 15 traffic. 16 Q. So the cot was in the middle of the hallway? 17 A. On the boys side. 18 Q. Which side was the boys side? 19 A. The boys side it would change, you know, from 20 season to season. But the boys side was up on the top 21 floor. 22 Q. So the boys had the third floor and then they had 23 part of the second floor. Is that right? 24 A. Yeah, where the door was. 25 Q. And then the girls had part of the second floor? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 267 1 A. That's all the girls we have. 2 Q. Who slept in the arena house? 3 A. Not very many people. I don't know. 4 Q. Was there any similar effort to segregate boys and 5 girls in the arena house? 6 A. We never had coed over there. 7 Q. Was it just boys or was it just girls? 8 A. It was just boys. But one time the girls -- I 9 think it was after we gave back the license. The girls 10 thought we want to try it. So they did for about a month. 11 Q. Did you ever segregate the boys and the girls by 12 putting all the boys in the arena house and all the girls in 13 the mansion? Was that ever the case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you have any policies regarding whether 16 students were allowed to date each other? 17 A. Yes. The students weren't allowed to date. 18 Q. To date at all or date each other? What was the 19 extent of that policy? 20 A. Oh, okay. I didn't understand you. Say it again. 21 Q. Were the students allowed to date at all? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Under what circumstances were they allowed to 24 date? 25 A. A notarized letter from their parents. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 268 1 Q. Do you remember how many students ever received 2 such a letter? 3 A. Leah. But I think she's the only one that really 4 dated. Hannah -- well, Hannah didn't date. Leah is the 5 only one I can remember. 6 Q. Did Aaron Katsnelson's parents send such a letter? 7 A. They came to the mansion. And I think Aaron asked 8 if they could date. 9 Q. What did they say? What's your understanding of 10 what they -- 11 A. They had a meeting with Mark and I. And they said 12 that's what he would be doing if he was home and if you 13 think she's a good kid. 14 Q. Were you ever made aware that Leah and Aaron were 15 dating? 16 A. No, I wasn't. 17 Q. So you never obviously then had a group session 18 about Leah and Aaron dating. Is that correct? 19 A. Leah and Aaron I still don't think were dating. 20 Leah made advances on him in the bus one time -- 21 Q. How do you know that? 22 A. -- and we had group. Because they were sitting by 23 each other. And someone pulled the blanket off and they 24 were hugging. 25 Q. Okay. Do you know did Leah date any of the other DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 269 1 students that you're aware of? 2 A. I think she liked most of the guys that were 3 there. But most of the guys didn't like her. 4 Q. How do you know that? 5 A. They said things that weren't nice. 6 Q. Such as? 7 A. I don't remember. 8 Q. Did you ever have group therapy sessions on Leah 9 as a result of Leah dating boys? 10 A. Did we ever what? 11 Q. Did you ever have any group sessions on Leah as a 12 result of Leah dating boys? 13 A. Okay. Are you talking group with -- 14 Q. I'm talking about group meetings of any kind. Did 15 you ever have any group meetings regarding Leah? 16 A. With Tim, yeah, the therapist. 17 Q. So those were meetings that Tim personally 18 conducted? 19 A. And it was probably brought up a lot too because 20 she was always after someone. 21 Q. Let's talk about medications. Are you good right 22 now or do you need a five minute break? 23 A. I'm good. I have to go to the bathroom, but I'll 24 hold it. 25 Q. Okay. I'll just keep going until you tell me DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 270 1 otherwise. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Sound good? 4 All right. Let's talk about medications for a 5 minute. When the students' parents filled out an intake 6 form did they have to tell you what medications the students 7 were on? 8 A. You're asking the person who didn't take the 9 intake form. 10 Q. That's a good point. Just to make sure we've got 11 that clear were you ever made aware of what medications the 12 student was on prior to the student being admitted? 13 A. Can you say that again. 14 Q. Were you ever -- do you recall ever being made 15 aware prior to a student coming to your program what that 16 student was prescribed? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. When? 19 A. Odd times when they'd have talks with me. 20 Q. When the students arrived at your program the 21 first day or the first couple days did you have a policy in 22 place for dealing with their prescription medications? 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. How did that work? What was the policy? 25 A. Mark has a safe with a key -- a lock. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 271 1 Q. So then all the students' medications would go to 2 Mark's safe? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. Were any of the students' prescription medications 5 kept in any other place other than Mark's safe? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Are you aware of that ever happening? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Who had access to that safe? 10 A. Mark. 11 Q. And so then was Mark in charge of making sure that 12 the students took their medications every day? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you have any involvement in that at all? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you keep any prescription medications on a 17 shelf in your downstairs bedroom? 18 A. I kept vitamins. 19 Q. So there were no prescription medications on that 20 shelf? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Are you aware of any circumstances in which any 23 student took medications that were not prescribed for them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Tell me about that. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 272 1 A. Leah and Hannah stole Bernie's prescriptions. 2 Q. Bernie? Bernie Farrow? 3 A. Bernie from Mexico. 4 Q. Bernardo? 5 A. Bernardo. 6 Q. What was his last name? What happened as a result 7 of them stealing those medications? 8 A. They got high. And then they started bragging 9 about it. And Bernie started crying about it because they 10 were his and his mother wanted him to have them. And they 11 had to do a responsibility packet. I think they had to miss 12 out on their date or something like that. 13 Q. Did you have a group about that? 14 A. Not much. Just a little meeting. 15 Q. Did all the students attend that meeting? 16 A. Some of them. Because we were just coming back 17 from the trip and some were helping Mark. I don't even 18 think Mark was there. 19 Q. Did you ever encourage the students to stop taking 20 their prescription medications? 21 A. Encourage the students to what? 22 Q. To stop taking their prescription medications. 23 A. That's a very vague question. 24 Q. What's vague about it? 25 A. I would never encourage anyone to quit taking DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 273 1 medication that a doctor has prescribed because they need 2 it. 3 Q. So the answer to my question then is a no? 4 A. No. But there is another side to that story. 5 Q. Okay. What's the other side? 6 A. A lot of the parents want their children to stop 7 taking the medication. They can see that it's not doing 8 them any good. And so I would try and weigh it out for 9 them. 10 Q. You would try weighing it out for who? 11 A. And give them my input. 12 Q. Give the parents your input? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Do you have any medical training? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Do you have any pharmaceutical training? 17 A. No. And they know that. I just had experience 18 with kids who are off medication. 19 Q. Did any of the plaintiffs in this case express to 20 you a desire for their children to not be taking their 21 prescription medications? And if it would help we can walk 22 through them one by one. Would that help? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Okay. So can you think of any instances in which 25 any of the plaintiffs -- the parents who are the plaintiffs DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 274 1 expressed to you the desire that their children stop taking 2 prescription -- 3 A. Probably. 4 Q. Who? 5 A. I don't know. But if that was the case the first 6 thing I'd do is take them to a doctor. 7 Q. Okay. My question is very specific then. Can you 8 think of any of these specific plaintiffs? 9 A. No, I can't. 10 Q. Other than situations in which a parent expressed 11 to you their desire for their kid not to be taking their 12 prescription medications anymore did you ever on your own 13 suggest to a student that he or she stop taking medication? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Did you ever express your opinion to any of the 16 students under your care that prescription medications were 17 not a good thing to take? 18 A. Opposite. 19 Q. Meaning? 20 A. I think prescription medication is the only way 21 you can help some chemical imbalances. 22 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the subliminal messages. 23 You talked about these before. That the kids listen to what 24 you refer to as subliminals in the morning. Is that right? 25 A. That's right. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 275 1 Q. What were these messages? 2 A. Different. 3 Q. Were these tapes that they were listening to? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Where did you get these tapes from? 6 A. Different sources. 7 Q. So they changed every time? 8 A. It was up to the kids. Some of them didn't 9 like -- 10 Q. No, no. Before we get to the question of if the 11 kids liked them, I mean, physically where did they come 12 from? We're starting at square one on this one. Where did 13 these tapes come? 14 A. No, you said was there different sources. And I 15 was telling you yes because some of them didn't like the 16 voice of one. 17 Q. Okay. Got it. So where did you buy these tapes 18 from? Let me back up. Did you buy these tapes personally? 19 A. Yes. They're very expensive. 20 Q. Where did you buy them from? 21 A. Borders, Internet. 22 Q. Do you remember the titles of any of these tapes? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. What were the titles of them? 25 A. Carol Truman, Feelings Buried Alive Never Die. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 276 1 Q. What were the other ones that you can remember? 2 A. Forgiveness. 3 Q. By whom? 4 A. By Carol Truman. Most of them were through Carol 5 Truman. But the kids were able to choose the ones that they 6 wanted. And some of them wanted to listen to Anthony 7 Hopkins or they'd want to listen to Wayne Dire or any of the 8 inspirational tapes in the morning. It was just a way for 9 them to have a jump start on the morning and think positive 10 things. 11 Q. Do you still have copies of these tapes? 12 A. I do. I have them here with me. I was going to 13 use them so I would not be afraid to do this. But this 14 isn't that bad. 15 Q. Okay. We will ask that you not do anything to 16 destroy or throw them away in the meantime. And we'll 17 probably be sending something out to get copies of those. 18 Is that fair? 19 A. That's fine. I would love to share them, but 20 you're going love them. 21 Q. Okay. I can't wait. 22 MR. FERGUSON: It occurs to me that they're 23 probably copyrighted. 24 MR. TENNEY: Yeah, that's a good point. 25 THE WITNESS: Why don't you just go buy some. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 277 1 MR. FERGUSON: What we can probably do is give you 2 the list. And then we can explore how to get copies made. 3 THE WITNESS: All you have to do is go to the 4 Internet, pull up self-help tapes and subliminal messages. 5 And you will see all of the tapes that the kids could choose 6 from and then we would approve. 7 BY MR. TENNEY: 8 Q. Okay. I was going to ask you a couple of 9 questions about religion. I'm not going to go crazy deep on 10 this, but we're going to talk about it for a minute. What 11 religion do you belong to? 12 A. I'm a Mormon, yes, I am. 13 Q. Did you ever discuss your religion with your 14 prospective clients? 15 A. It's kind of hard not to when you live together 16 like that. 17 Q. Okay. But, I mean, I'm talking before the kids 18 even got there. You're talking to the parents on the phone 19 and they were thinking of sending their kids there. Did -- 20 A. Yes, I believe most of the parents knew we were 21 LDS before they came. 22 Q. When you had students -- was the Mormon religion 23 did it have any official part of your program? 24 A. Not at all. 25 Q. Did religion in general -- whether it's Mormon, DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 278 1 Catholic or whatever did religion in general have an 2 official part of your program? 3 A. There's a difference between religion and 4 spirituality. 5 Q. Okay. 6 A. Spirituality had a big part of our program. And 7 it was made very clear to the parents. 8 Q. In what part did spirituality play in your 9 religion? 10 A. The spiritual laws that help people live together 11 and become good citizens and serve and all the things that 12 they would be happy with. And the spiritual laws are the 13 spirit of honesty, the spirit of cooperation, the spirit of 14 balance, all of the spiritual laws. 15 We used Dan Millian. 16 Q. Dan Millian? 17 A. D-A-N, M-I-L-L-I-A-N. He just had a good movie 18 come out called the Peaceful Warrior. That's the first book 19 I usually make the kids read when they come. 20 Q. Good to know. Did you encourage the students to 21 attend LDS worship services with you? 22 A. Did I what? 23 Q. Did you encourage the students to attend LDS 24 worship services with you? 25 A. Actually, no. Sometimes it was very embarrassing. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 279 1 Q. What do you mean? 2 A. Well, imagine Justin coming and -- 3 Q. Which Justin are we talking about? 4 A. Busa. With his earring and his mohawk. They 5 usually stopped the crowd. Or Ben walking in with earphones 6 on. Obviously he doesn't want to be there. So if the kids 7 didn't want to go there, I didn't want them to come. 8 Q. My question was actually quite specific I thought. 9 Did you ever encourage them to go with you to the LDS 10 services? 11 A. No. I discouraged them to come if they didn't 12 want to. 13 Q. How would you figure out who wanted to? 14 A. It's real easy. 15 Q. How? 16 A. If they're dressed at the time church starts, then 17 obviously they want to go. It's kind of cool especially 18 when church is at 9:00. Because there was options because 19 that spiritual part of our program is huge. 20 On Sundays they can either go to church with us so 21 we're all together. Or they can stay back and they can 22 read. There's a whole library full of spiritual books. And 23 do a report on why spirituality is so important in their 24 life and what they learned from it. And then share it with 25 the kids. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 280 1 Q. Give me a percentage if you could. What 2 percentage of kids went with you to LDS services versus 3 those who chose the book report option? 4 A. You have to remember we lived in Canada, Mexico 5 and Utah. 6 Q. Right. 7 A. When you're in Utah you can go to a Mormon church 8 pretty easy. 9 Q. Let's narrow it down to the Utah period. During 10 the Utah period -- 11 A. Which was a third of the time usually. 12 Q. A third of -- 13 A. A third of their stay. 14 Q. A third of the students would go with you to -- 15 A. No. A third of the year that they were here. 16 Q. Okay. Right. 17 A. So how many kids would go with us? All of them -- 18 most of them. Bernie didn't go because he's Catholic. And 19 he really wanted to go, but his parents absolutely forbid 20 it. And Jenna had an attitude about it. But she always 21 ended up going and nobody wanted her to go. 22 Q. Did you ever have a group on a student as a result 23 of the student not coming with you to LDS services? 24 A. No. 25 Q. That never happened? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 281 1 A. No. 2 Q. Let's take a five minute break. And then I've got 3 about two more sections and we'll be out of here at 6:00. 4 MR. FERGUSON: Let me ask just one clarifying 5 question. You said you paid Bernie a dollar a mouse? 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 MR. FERGUSON: Which Bernie? 8 THE WITNESS: Bernardo. 9 MR. TENNEY: Oh, I had that wrong. You're talking 10 about Bernie the student? 11 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 12 MR. FERGUSON: Not the employee? 13 THE WITNESS: Not the employee. That's how come 14 he could catch so many. He would go out to the farm and to 15 the ridge and all over the place because he was such a great 16 mouse catcher. 17 (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) 18 BY MR. TENNEY: 19 Q. Ms. Sudweeks, we're back on the record. I'm going 20 to refer you again to Exhibit No. 26. This is the 21 interrogatory response document. We'll be going to page 22 seven on that. This is Interrogatory No. 12. Tell me when 23 you're there. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. The question that we asked in Interrogatory No. 12 DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 282 1 was for you to describe the means by which the students were 2 educated. Your response -- just go down to the paragraph 3 that's marked answer. Second line beginning with the word 4 subject to your response reads, "Subject to, and without 5 waiving, those objections, Whitmore states that from 6 2000-2004, students were educated through the Nebo School 7 District Landmark High School. Courses were also available 8 through Brigham Young University's independent study 9 program. Beginning in 2004, The Whitmore Academy held 10 accreditation through the State of Utah Office of Education 11 under candidacy status." Did I read that right? 12 A. Uh-huh. 13 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you a couple questions 14 about that. 15 A. All right. 16 Q. The first part should be obvious. It says from 17 2000 to 2004 that your students were educated through the 18 Landmark High School. What is Landmark High School? 19 A. Landmark is associated with the Nebo School 20 District. It's a special school for continuation high 21 school kids. That's basically how I did my high school. 22 Q. What's continuation high school? What does that 23 mean? 24 A. It's an alternative school for kids who can't make 25 it in a typical. And they were willing to work with us if DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 283 1 we paid them a certain amount per child. 2 Q. How much did you have to pay them per child? 3 A. I couldn't tell you, but it was I think $30 a day. 4 And then we had to have staff there supervising. Justin was 5 one of those kids and Leah was one of those. 6 Q. We'll go in there in a second. It says in your 7 response that you started doing that in 2000. We were a 8 little bit fuzzy on the dates before. But am I correct in 9 assuming that you started doing that once you got to Utah? 10 A. Yeah. I don't think 2000 is accurate. 11 Q. So you said that you paid Landmark. How did you 12 come in contact with them -- 13 A. Landmark? 14 Q. -- in the first instance? How did this 15 arrangement start? 16 A. Well, okay. Is it okay if I tell them really 17 quick? 18 MR. FERGUSON: Yeah, answer the question. You 19 don't need to give him the world history version. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't know the other one. Juab 21 County wouldn't accept us. We went to Nebo because Mark's 22 father was a principal there for many, many years. 23 BY MR. TENNEY: 24 Q. Why wouldn't Juab County accept you? 25 A. Because they're not nice. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 284 1 Q. So you actually asked the Juab County School 2 District to take your students and they just said no? 3 A. They said no. So we went to Scott Wilson who is 4 Mark's neighbor. And he -- 5 Q. Mark's neighbor growing up? 6 A. Growing up. And he said that he would work with 7 us. And we were able to come to this arrangement. And it 8 was really good. We thought the kids really appreciated it, 9 but obviously -- because it was expensive. We had to drive 10 them there every day. 11 Q. Okay. So you had this association with Landmark 12 from 2002 to 2004. What happened in 2004 that made you stop 13 your association with Landmark? 14 A. We decided that we could start our own school. 15 Q. Okay. We'll get there in a second. That's what I 16 wanted to know. 17 During the Landmark period, 2000 to 2004 period, 18 how many of your students actually went to Landmark. Did 19 all of your students go to Landmark? 20 A. No. Only the trustworthy students. 21 Q. Who made the determination as to who was 22 trustworthy? 23 A. In our meetings that we have. 24 Q. Your staff? 25 A. It was a mutual decision. And then it was turned DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 285 1 over -- then we took -- first of all we wanted to see who 2 wanted to go, and who was closest to graduating, who was 3 serious about their schooling, who was anxious to go on to 4 college, and who was trustworthy. 5 Q. So for those students who did not go to Landmark 6 how are they educated during the 2000 to 2004 period? 7 A. The other students worked on packets, which were 8 through Landmark. They just weren't -- they didn't go sit 9 in a classroom. These packets were accredited through the 10 Northwest Schools and Colleges. 11 Q. So some students would be transported to Landmark 12 school. Other students would stay at the mansion, but they 13 would receive coursework through Landmark. Is that right? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. So all the students from 2002 to 2004 all of them 16 that you had they were receiving education through Landmark. 17 Is that right? 18 A. Nope. 19 Q. Okay. Who is left out? 20 A. Lindsey Kleeberger's parents besides Landmark sent 21 her schoolwork from Ohio. And another student I can think 22 of her mom had her own school that she was satisfied with. 23 And I don't know if there's any others. There was a few of 24 them that had their own ways of doing it. But they were 25 followed up on and they were expected to keep to the DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 286 1 schedule. 2 Q. So for the students who were receiving packets 3 from Landmark to do back at the mansion were they doing 4 homework as part of those packets? 5 A. Oh, yeah. 6 Q. And who were they turning that homework into? 7 A. To the prefect or whoever was in charge. 8 Q. And then what would the prefect do with it? 9 A. Turn it into the man who is over packets at 10 Landmark. 11 Q. And were you paying for those students? 12 A. His name is Seth. 13 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. His name is Seth. 15 Q. What is his last name? 16 A. I don't remember. 17 Q. Were you paying for those students as well? 18 A. Yeah. We had to pay per packet. 19 Q. So was it the same $30 per day or it was different 20 with them all together? 21 A. It was different. But it was still expensive. 22 Q. How expensive was it? 23 A. I don't know. $30 a packet. 24 Q. How many packets would they go through in a week? 25 A. It depended on how fast they wanted to accelerate. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 287 1 Some of them could do, you know, two or three. 2 Q. Two or three per week? 3 A. Per packet. And then once they got through -- I 4 just remembered something. They also did electronic high 5 school through the State of Utah. 6 Q. During the same time period? 7 A. Yep. 8 Q. If they were getting educated through Landmark why 9 did they need something from the State of Utah as well? 10 A. Some of them wanted to graduate within a shorter 11 time. So they didn't have to go home and get back into the 12 same bad environment. 13 Q. Did you have teachers involved in your program -- 14 directly in your program during that time period as well? 15 A. It overlapped. But we had certified teachers. 16 Q. How much of an overlap was there? 17 A. Not much. 18 Q. Let's go back to Exhibit No. 25 if you would. 19 This is the employee log. Number five on the employee log 20 is a woman named Susan Likes? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did she have any involvement in the educational 23 aspect of your program prior to 2004? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What involvement did she have? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 288 1 A. She took the kids -- she was one of the 2 supervisors at the school. She worked pretty closely with 3 Joe Kelly who was the principal over there. She spent a lot 4 of time helping these kids and helping us get our own school 5 going. 6 Q. Did she work for Landmark? 7 A. No. She worked for us. 8 Q. You said before that -- 9 MR. TENNEY: Can you read back the last answer to 10 make sure I got that right. 11 (Whereupon, the answer was read back by the court 12 reporter.) 13 BY MR. TENNEY: 14 Q. You testified earlier that Ms. Likes was one of 15 the supervisors of the school. What did you mean by that? 16 A. In order for us to send our kids to Landmark they 17 had us have a supervisor there with the children all day 18 long. 19 Q. So did you pay her to do that function? 20 A. Yes, we did. 21 Q. How much did you pay her? 22 A. I don't know. Because, you know, I didn't do 23 payroll and all that. But it was good. 24 Q. So you paid Susan to go and sit there at the 25 classroom observing the students and -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 289 1 A. Make sure the kids were going where they were 2 supposed to and stuff like that. 3 Q. About what percentage of your students were 4 physically going to Landmark versus those who simply stayed 5 back and did the packets? 6 MR. FERGUSON: Do you want to give it a time 7 frame? 8 BY MR. TENNEY: 9 Q. Thank you. From 2000 to 2004 can you give me a 10 ballpark percentage? 11 A. First of all they weren't there in 2000. 12 Q. From 2001 to 2004? Whenever it was that you 13 started sending to Landmark until you started your own 14 school what percentage approximately were going to the 15 facility? 16 A. Depending on the amount of students we had. It 17 could have been half to three-quarters. 18 Q. Were going there or were staying back? 19 A. That were going. 20 Q. How were they transported to Landmark? 21 A. A bus. 22 Q. Who drove the bus? 23 A. A shuttle bus. They would take turns, Mark and 24 Ben. I think that's all. 25 Q. Did your daughter Laeysa ever drive them? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 290 1 A. She had her own car. She drove herself. 2 Q. Was she going there as well? 3 A. Uh-huh. 4 Q. For her own schooling or just to supervise? 5 A. Both. 6 Q. Did you have any input into the transcripts that 7 Landmark would give or not give to the students? 8 A. What? 9 Q. Did you have any involvement in them getting 10 transcripts from Landmark? 11 A. Come again. 12 Q. Students that were either going to Landmark or 13 being schooled through the packets at Landmark did you have 14 any involvement in whether they received a transcript or not 15 from Landmark? Or was that handled entirely by Landmark? 16 A. That's why we paid them. They entirely handled 17 it. 18 Q. So you had no input to that at all? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you have any input in the grades? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you ever -- strike that. 23 You said that in 2004 you started setting up your 24 own school. In the answer to the interrogatory -- this is 25 again from Deposition Exhibit No. 26 -- you said, "Beginning DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 291 1 in 2004, The Whitmore Academy held accreditation through the 2 State of Utah Office of Education under candidacy status." 3 What does that mean? 4 A. It's a process that you have to go through in 5 order to become accredited through the Northwest Schools and 6 Colleges, which is very prestigious as you know. They watch 7 you for two years making sure that you follow their 8 guidelines, which are very strict. And our status is up 9 right about now. 10 Q. You've been referring to the Northwest -- what's 11 that organization called? 12 A. Northwest Schools and Colleges. 13 Q. Is that different from Northwest Association of 14 Accredited Schools? There's an acronym that I've seen in 15 some of the discovery that is NAAS, Northwest Association of 16 Accredited Schools. Are you familiar with that 17 organization? 18 A. I couldn't tell you. 19 Q. Is that something that Mark handled? 20 A. Susan did most of the stuff for us. 21 Q. How much input did you have with Susan on getting 22 your accreditation? How much involvement did you have with 23 Susan? 24 A. Everyone was involved. We all tried so hard. 25 Q. Were you more involved in that or was Mark more DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 292 1 involved in that? 2 A. Probably me. 3 Q. What did you have to do to get this accreditation? 4 A. Well, it was still in candidacy stage when -- but 5 there's a lot of stuff. And they would come out and check 6 on you two or three times a year. Come through and see what 7 the kids were doing, check out the classrooms, see that your 8 teachers were certified through the State of Utah, and check 9 out your curriculum, and be in touch with the principal. 10 Q. And what's the status of your accreditation right 11 now? 12 A. Candidacy stage. 13 Q. When are you going to move off of candidacy stage? 14 A. I think it's coming up. But in order to do that 15 then we'd have to get all the teachers back on staff. I 16 won't be doing it in the state of Utah. 17 Q. Prior to 2004 when you made this switch did you 18 ever employ a full-time teacher at The Whitmore Academy? 19 A. Okay. You're going to have to rephrase that. 20 Q. Okay. You said that in roughly 2000 -- 2001 to 21 2004 the kids were being educated through Landmark. 22 Somewhere in 2004 you decided to shift over and run your own 23 school. I'm talking about that first period now, that 2001 24 to 2004 period. Did you ever employ -- 25 A. We had certified teachers for all of the core DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 293 1 classes. 2 Q. During that 2001 to 2004 period? I'm talking 3 about that first period, not the second period. Do you want 4 me to start over? 5 Okay. I'll do this one more time to try to make 6 it clear. I'm talking about two different time periods. 7 The first time period from 2001 through 2004 your students 8 are being educated through Landmark. Is that correct? 9 A. No. 10 Q. It's not correct? 11 A. From when -- 12 Q. From whenever you got to Utah? 13 A. Yeah. Because I think it was like 2002. 14 Q. Okay. From whenever you got to Utah through 2004 15 the kids were being educated through Landmark. Is that 16 right? 17 A. Uh-huh. And Internet high school. 18 Q. Tell me about that. What's the Internet -- okay. 19 We've already talked about that. 20 A. It's just simple. They do their Internet when 21 they have a teacher on the other end. And then they send a 22 certification that they finished the class. 23 Q. During that same time period did you employ 24 teachers to come to The Whitmore Academy directly and teach 25 students? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 294 1 A. I told you there was a short overlapping time and 2 I'm not sure. 3 Q. Okay. When you talk about the Internet courses is 4 that what you're referring to on page seven of this 5 interrogatory response, where you said that there were 6 courses available through Brigham Young University's 7 independent study program? Is that what you're talking 8 about there? 9 A. No. But they also did the BYU. That's required. 10 When they live with us we like them to take the -- there's 11 two classes on life values from BYU. And you can do it on 12 the Internet. 13 Q. Are they geared towards high school students or 14 college students? 15 A. High school. They're very good. 16 Q. What are the names of those classes? 17 A. Exploring values. 18 Q. Is it through BYU's -- 19 A. It's an English credit if you want. 20 Q. Is it through BYU's high school transcript 21 program? 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 BY MR. TENNEY: DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 295 1 Q. Did you have to pay per student for that? 2 A. Yes, we did. 3 Q. How much did you have to pay per student? 4 A. I couldn't tell you. Usually around $100 a 5 quarter. 6 Q. Per quarter per student? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 Q. Did you pay that for every student you had from 9 the 2002 to 2004 period? 10 A. We actually started doing that back `99. And, 11 yes, we did. 12 Q. Did BYU at any point stop agreeing to allow your 13 students to participate in their program? 14 A. Without the parents paying the check. 15 Q. What do you mean? 16 A. They still took our students. But they wanted it 17 to come directly from the parents. 18 Q. So you would make arrangements for the parents to 19 pay BYU directly? 20 A. No. We would make arrangements for the parents to 21 contact BYU. 22 Q. I'm going to refer you again to Exhibit -- where 23 is that exhibit? The trip list. Why can't I find that. 24 There we are. Exhibit No. 27 is the trip list. 25 I want you to look over this list for a minute. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 296 1 And take the time you need to look at this. Can you tell me 2 if this list is according to your memory complete? 3 What I mean by complete is can you think of any 4 trips that you took that were longer than two weeks during 5 the time period of 2002 to 2006 that are not on this list? 6 A. Nauvoo is not on here. 7 Q. When did you go to Nauvoo? 8 A. I couldn't tell you. 9 Q. Give me a year if you could. 10 A. 2002 probably. 11 Q. Do you remember the season? Summer? Fall? 12 A. Spring. 13 Q. Any other trips that are not on here? 14 A. Uh-uh. 15 MR. FERGUSON: No? 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 BY MR. TENNEY: 18 Q. Thank you. When you were on these trips what 19 would you do about the kids' schooling? 20 A. They took their school with them. 21 Q. What does that mean? In fact, let me be more 22 specific so I don't have that problem. Let's talk about the 23 Landmark period, the 2002 to 2004 period. Let's just pick a 24 trip. 25 Trip number three on the trip log you went to DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 297 1 Phoenix, Arizona and the Grand Canyon in April of 2003. 2 What provisions did you make for the kids to continue being 3 schooled during that April 2003 bus trip to Arizona? 4 A. I don't remember. I really couldn't remember 5 unless I thought about it a couple weeks. 6 Q. Okay. What about the Lake Powell trip in October 7 of 2003 that's listed as number five? 8 A. I remember Joe worked with us pretty good. 9 Q. What would he do? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. Were these kids educated while they were on these 12 long trips? 13 A. Very. 14 Q. How? Were they educated in a formal schooling 15 sense in these trips? 16 A. You hear, you forget. You see, you -- how did 17 that go? Anyway -- you do, you remember. 18 Q. You have to forgive me. I have no idea what that 19 meant. Were these kids educated during these trips? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How were they educated during these trips? 22 A. The same way they're educated when they're not on 23 the trips. 24 Q. They would go to school classes while they were on 25 these trips? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 298 1 A. Yeah. We followed our schedule on the trips. 2 Q. Well, now for those kids that were going to 3 Landmark school -- 4 A. They would have assignments or else they would 5 have packets. And during that block period they'd all be 6 working on their assignments. 7 Q. Would you get those assignments from Landmark 8 itself? 9 A. That's the part I don't remember. They probably 10 had packets I would imagine. I don't remember. 11 Q. Okay. Did you charge the parents anything extra 12 for these trips? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What about the cruise -- the Western Caribbean 15 cruise? Did you charge the parents anything extra for that 16 trip? 17 A. Not a penny. 18 Q. So that just came out of their tuition or whatever 19 it was they had already paid you? 20 A. It came out of my mother's inheritance. 21 Q. Were the parents ever asked to help you with the 22 costs on that? 23 A. What? 24 Q. Were the parents ever asked to help you with the 25 costs incurred on any of these trips? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 299 1 A. No. That was not our practice. 2 Q. Did you bring the kids' medications with you on 3 the trips? 4 A. We brought everything. 5 Q. So where were the medications stored during these 6 trips? 7 A. Mark had a safe that we kept up by the bus. 8 Q. You have a safe in the bus? 9 A. Yeah, a small one. 10 Q. Was it big enough to store all the medications? 11 A. You don't understand. Most the kids weren't on 12 medications. 13 Q. So then to make sure I'm clear on that you'd bring 14 all the kids' medications and put them in that safe? 15 A. Yeah. You can't take your kids off the 16 medications. 17 Q. Did you have any trips where you weren't on the 18 bus? I guess not. 19 Okay. How often did kids run away from your 20 program? 21 A. You just named them all. 22 Q. When did I name them all? 23 A. The ones who didn't have shoes. 24 Q. Okay. Remind me again who those were. 25 A. I can't remember. Cory, Dusty, Tony, Justin. And DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 300 1 when Hannah and Camille ran away they weren't really running 2 away. They just wanted to see if they could go to the 3 haunted mansion down the street. 4 Q. Okay. Let's talk about communication with the 5 parents. Were the kids allowed to call their parents 6 whenever they wanted to? 7 A. Not on schedule. 8 Q. Was there a schedule in place for when they could 9 call their parents? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. How did that work? Tell me about that. 12 A. We tried to do it on Sundays. Especially because 13 when we traveled it was nice that they could count on a call 14 on Sundays. But when we started getting more kids -- when 15 there started to get up in the 20s and 30s then everybody 16 had specific days. And then if there was something that 17 came up that they needed to talk to their parents, they 18 would just talk to one of the proctors or the mentors. 19 Q. Did you have a monitoring system in place for the 20 phone calls between child and parent? 21 A. I don't understand your question. 22 Q. Did you make any efforts to monitor what the kids 23 were talking about to their parents? 24 A. That's a really broad question. 25 Q. Help me understand how to make it more specific. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 301 1 A. No, they couldn't go in their bedroom and whisper 2 to their parents if they were new kids. But if they had 3 been there longer than a couple of weeks they could do it 4 whenever they wanted. 5 Q. Did you ever listen in to a child's phone call 6 with his or her parents? 7 A. At the direction of the parents. 8 Q. Other than at the direction of parents did you 9 ever listen in to a phone call between a child and a parent? 10 A. Uh-uh. 11 Q. Ever? 12 A. Not that I know of. 13 Q. Did you ever listen in on a different phone in the 14 mansion or anything? 15 A. What? 16 Q. Did you ever, for example, pick up a different 17 phone in the mansion and listen to a phone call between a 18 child and a parent? 19 A. Not intentionally. 20 Q. Did you ever do it unintentionally? 21 A. Yeah. Everybody does. There's only two phones in 22 the mansion and it's usually busy. 23 Q. How long would you listen at that point? 24 A. Two seconds. 25 Q. Okay. Did you ever assign a student to listen in DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 302 1 on another student's phone call with their parents? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Tell me about that. When did you do that? 4 A. I'm trying to think. I just remember Chelsea, the 5 prefect -- she was the prefect of one of the kids. And I 6 don't remember which kid it was. 7 They were really negative. And they had 8 threatened to tell their parents a bunch of crap so that 9 they could leave. And Chelsea had told me. And I told her 10 to run up and see what she was saying. 11 Q. So this was a one time incident? 12 A. Yeah, one that I remember. 13 Q. Can you think of any other incidences -- 14 A. No. 15 Q. -- in which you asked a student to monitor another 16 student's phone calls? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Other than -- putting aside the monitoring 19 question to make sure I understand this right. Were 20 students allowed -- after they gained your trust after they 21 had been there a few weeks were they allowed to call home 22 when they wanted to? 23 A. When they wanted to. But they had to have 24 permission so that we knew they weren't calling their 25 friends. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 303 1 Q. Who would they get permission from? 2 A. Usually me, Mark. Mark and I probably half and 3 half. Or whatever staff was in charge. 4 Q. What about mail? Was incoming mail that was 5 directed to the students did you read it before it was given 6 to the students? 7 A. I probably should have. 8 Q. But did you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You never did? 11 A. Never. 12 Q. So students received their mail unopened? 13 A. Yeah. And a couple of times it got us in trouble. 14 They'd get money and if somebody has money -- there I 15 go again. Yeah, no. 16 Q. What about outgoing mail? 17 A. No. 18 Q. You didn't make any effort to monitor the outgoing 19 mail? 20 A. No. 21 Q. What would be the problem if a student received 22 money from home? 23 A. From what? 24 Q. I mean, would it be a violation of the rules if a 25 student were to receive money in a letter from home? DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 304 1 A. Yeah, if we didn't know about it. 2 Q. Why was that a problem? 3 A. Because they are thieves. And if somebody has 4 money and you don't know that they're supposed to, then 5 you're wondering where it came from. 6 Q. What about e-mail? Did you make any effort to 7 monitor the e-mail? 8 A. That was somebody's job. 9 Q. How did that work? How were they able to monitor 10 it? 11 A. It worked great. We had a problem because the 12 therapists didn't think you could ever run a program with 13 open Internet with all the pornography and all the crap that 14 goes around. And these kids deserved that opportunity to 15 prove themselves. They failed many times. 16 And after about the tenth time of failing and at 17 the staff meeting it was said no more Internet we tried one 18 more thing. And that was the prefect's could check the 19 mail. It had to go through Who Am I Discovery. And they 20 would check it. So they checked all my mail. They checked 21 all their mail. They checked everyone to see if it was 22 going to their parents. 23 Q. What would they check it for? 24 A. To see if they're e-mailing their friends or if 25 they're getting on the Internet. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 305 1 Q. So if they determined that the e-mail was to the 2 parents were they instructed to not read any further? 3 A. Yeah. They didn't have time to read further. 4 Q. Was that a specific instruction that the prefect's 5 were given? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. What if the prefect discovered that the student 8 was e-mailing a friend? Were they allowed to read that 9 e-mail or were they just simply directed to tell you about 10 it and let you deal with it? 11 A. No. Then it became a Sunday RIP meeting. 12 Q. So you would handle that -- 13 A. They would lose their privileges in a meeting. 14 Q. You handled that in group session? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Was that common to handle in group? Is that 17 basically how this is worked? 18 A. Yeah. It works good. 19 Q. How many students have withdrawn from your program 20 prior to the conclusion of their contract? 21 A. Okay. Not very many. 22 Q. If you could name all the ones you can think of. 23 MR. FERGUSON: Don't guess. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. Yeah. I don't want you to -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 306 1 A. I couldn't even tell you that. 2 Q. I'm not even asking for a number at this point. 3 Tell me the kids you can think of that left early. 4 A. Maybe one or two. 5 Q. Who? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. I'll start you out. Joey Hamson left early? 8 A. He wasn't in our program. He was there for a 9 couple of weeks. He never really was part of it. 10 Q. Did his parents pay you any money? 11 A. Hardly. 12 Q. Did they sign a contract with you? 13 A. Uh-huh. 14 Q. Joey Hamson left early. What about Erica Cira? 15 Did she leave early? 16 A. Yes, Erica. 17 Q. Can you think of anybody else? 18 A. Well, what's his name? Shawn left. 19 Q. Shawn Snider? 20 A. He was crying his eyes out when the police came 21 because his mother sent them. And held onto the kids and 22 wouldn't leave. And then a month later she begged us to 23 take him back. So we did and so he fulfilled his year. 24 Q. He what? 25 A. He fulfilled his year. DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 307 1 Q. Other than Joey, Erica, Shawn can you think of 2 anybody else that left early? 3 A. I can think of a lot of kids who stayed another 4 year. 5 Q. But as far as leaving early though? 6 A. Some kids would leave like two weeks before they 7 were done if it was close to Christmas or the holidays. 8 Q. Have you performed any renovations on the Whitmore 9 mansion since you purchased it? 10 A. Oh, yeah. 11 Q. What renovations have you performed and when? 12 A. Well, I don't know all the details. But at least 13 a $200,000 sprinkler system. And don't quote me on the 14 prices because I don't pay them. 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. But carpet changes, plumbing. We put decks on. A 17 new kitchen. 18 Q. When did you do the new kitchen? 19 A. This is a weird question. Why do you care? 20 Q. You'd be amazed what I care about. When did you 21 put in the new kitchen? 22 A. We put the new kitchen in the year we bought it. 23 Q. So roughly 2002? 24 A. Yeah. 25 Q. I noticed when we took our tour of the mansion -- DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 308 1 A. We put the pool and all that in the backyard. 2 Q. Oh, yeah. When did the pool get put in? 3 A. Same. 4 Q. Right when you bought it? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. I noticed when we took our official inspection of 7 the mansion that the staircase right off the kitchen had 8 been removed, was being worked on while we were there? 9 A. Uh-huh. 10 Q. I was lead to believe that that was where a spiral 11 staircase that goes down to the basement had been? 12 A. It's outside. It was outside. And that's the 13 famous spiral staircase. 14 Q. Why is it famous? 15 A. Well, because I won't let them throw it away or 16 anything in case we have to use it to show that you can't 17 push people down that stairs. You can try, but it goes -- 18 it turns so fast that you would never be able to push 19 somebody. 20 Q. Okay. So am I correct in assuming that's the 21 staircase that Joey Hamson is saying that he was thrown 22 down? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When was that taken out? 25 A. A new program wants to buy our place and they're DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 309 1 making them do all these things. So it was taken out last 2 year maybe. 3 Q. After this lawsuit had been filed? 4 A. Yeah. 5 MR. FERGUSON: I think it was not long before your 6 tour. 7 MR. TENNEY: Do you happen to know when that was, 8 Phil? 9 MR. FERGUSON: I just know it was earlier this 10 year. 11 BY MR. TENNEY: 12 Q. You said that the staircase -- the actual physical 13 staircase itself is outside right now? 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. Where outside? 16 A. In the driveway there next to the mansion. 17 Q. The driveway of the mansion? 18 A. Uh-huh. 19 Q. Is it still there right now? 20 A. Uh-huh. 21 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not going to let them 23 touch it in case we have to use it. 24 BY MR. TENNEY: 25 Q. I'm going to request that you cover it up and not DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 310 1 do anything to destroy that. Is that fair? 2 A. Uh-huh. 3 Q. You've mentioned that there's a pool there. Is 4 that right? 5 A. Uh-huh. 6 Q. Is there a hot tub there as well? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 MR. FERGUSON: Yes? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. TENNEY: 11 Q. Did you ever go swimming with the students? 12 A. Not very often. 13 Q. How often would you go swimming with the students? 14 A. I think I went twice. 15 Q. In the whole time period since you bought the 16 mansion? 17 A. Yes. Isn't that sad? 18 Q. Did you ever sit in the hot tub with the students? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you ever sit alone in the hot tub with a male 21 student? 22 A. No. I don't think so. Mark -- what's that about? 23 MR. TENNEY: Off the record for just a moment. 24 (Whereupon, an off-the-record discussion was 25 held.) DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 311 1 BY MR. TENNEY: 2 Q. Did you ever walk around undressed in front of the 3 students? 4 A. I tried really hard not to. 5 Q. What does that mean exactly? 6 A. Well, 24/7 a lot of people, travelling. And I 7 don't believe anybody saw me any other way. 8 Q. To the best of your memory did you ever walk 9 around in your underwear in front of the students? 10 A. No. 11 Q. You don't remember that ever happening? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Is it possible that the students saw you walking 14 around in your underwear based on your pattern of conduct 15 there? 16 A. Based upon what? 17 Q. Based upon how you remember these trips to have 18 gone and so forth? I mean, is it possible that students saw 19 you walking around in your underwear to the best of your 20 knowledge? 21 A. That was pretty nasty of them if they saw me. 22 Q. Did you make any efforts to remain clothed while 23 you were -- 24 A. I take very big efforts to remain modest. 25 Q. Okay. That's all I've got for today. Do you want DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 312 1 to stop there? 2 MR. FERGUSON: That's fine. 3 (Whereupon, the deposition concluded at 5:14 p.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 313 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF UTAH ) 3 COUNTY OF SALT LAKE) 4 THIS IS TO CERTIFY that the deposition of CHERYL 5 SUDWEEKS, the witness in the foregoing deposition named, was 6 taken before me, DANIELLE LITTLE, a Certified Shorthand 7 Reporter and Notary Public in and for the State of Utah, 8 residing at Salt Lake City, Utah. That the said witness, 9 was by me, before examination, duly sworn to testify the 10 truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in said 11 cause. 12 That the testimony of said witness was reported by me in 13 Stenotype and thereafter caused by me to be transcribed into 14 typewriting, and that a full, true and correct transcription 15 of said testimony so taken and transcribed, is set forth in 16 the foregoing pages. 17 I further certify that I am not of kin or otherwise 18 associated with any of the parties to said cause of action, 19 and that I am not interested in the event thereof. 20 WITNESS MY HAND and official seal at Salt Lake City, Utah, 21 this 8th day of November, 2006. 22 ___________________________________ 23 24 25 DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 314 1 WITNESS SIGNATURE CERTIFICATION 2 3 4 STATE OF UTAH ) ) ss. 5 COUNTY OF SALT LAKE ) 6 7 CHERYL SUDWEEKS deposes and says: That she is the 8 witness referred to in the foregoing deposition; that she 9 has read the same and knows the contents thereof; that the 10 same are true of her own knowledge. 11 ______________________ 12 CHERYL SUDWEEKS 13 14 SUBSCRIBED and SWORN to before me this ____ day of 15 __________ , 20 . 16 ___________________________ 17 Notary Public 18 Residing at 19 20 21 My commission expires: 22 ___________________ 23 24 25 DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 315 1 C O R R E C T I O N S 2 Deposition of: CHERYL SUDWEEKS 3 Taken: OCTOBER 30, 2006 4 PAGE LINE CORRECTION REASON 5 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 6 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 7 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 8 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 9 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 10 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 11 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 12 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 13 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 14 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 15 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 16 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 17 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 18 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 19 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 20 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 21 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 22 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 23 ____ ____ ____________________ __________________ 24 SIGNATURE ______________________ DATE ______________ 25 DANIELLE LITTLE -- DEPOMAXMERIT 316